To ALL UNITED pilots courtesy of ALL UAX carriers and their pilots

[skypine69]

Just a point of clarification....UAL does not include the JS in the BOW. The UAL contract stipulates that no UAL pilot will get bumped due to weight and balance. This does not extend to offline jumpseaters.
Also, I understand that UAL used to have priority above other carriers but below DL/DLC on Skywest flights that were in the DL system. That priority was changed to be the same as all other carriers in response to the UAL JSC request.

 

[eaglesview]

I was talking to a friend of mine, who is a UAL Dispatcher about this, and his comment was "Why should we fix this issue when no UAL employees will benefit?"

Umm, cuz it is the right thing to do?

Umm, because the current jumpseat agreements and the OMC Cards that currently come out of Apollo arent in sync?

Umm, because nearly every other major that I am aware of has their systems programmed correctly?

What makes UAL so friggin special...?

That arrogance is the reason that I dont OMC on UA if I can at all costs avoid it. He also made the comment that more UAX on UA OMCs will get bumped than UA on UAX if the "ban" goes through. I responded that UAX goes more places than UAL, and UAL doesnt go anywhere that some other "more jumpseat friendly" carrier goes that I am aware of. There are many places one can get only on UAX.

I'm all for captains authority; but whats wrong with having a system that works like its supposed to?

If the situation was reversed, and UAX was getting to pull a fast one on UAL mainline, there would be some severe hell to pay.

First off a dispatcher really has no idea what life on the line is like, never mind life for us commuters. I do not believe your "bullet points" represent the thought process of the LINE pilot at UAL.

As for UAL pilot Arrogance... I am not buying it. Are there our share of a__holes at UAL??? of course. On the whole we are no different than any other pilot group. It will be a shame if this blows up on the 31st. It will get testy.

 

[dispatchguy]

really has no idea what life on the line is like, never mind life for us commuters.

Actually, for this particular dispatcher, he does as he does commute.

 

[eaglesview]

Actually, for this particular dispatcher, he does as he does commute.

Well there are always exceptions. I guess I am guilty of generalizing.

 

[Fly2AK]

Just a point of clarification....UAL does not include the JS in the BOW. The UAL contract stipulates that no UAL pilot will get bumped due to weight and balance. This does not extend to offline jumpseaters.
Also, I understand that UAL used to have priority above other carriers but below DL/DLC on Skywest flights that were in the DL system. That priority was changed to be the same as all other carriers in response to the UAL JSC request.

When was the last time you were bumped for weight on a UAL mainline flight? I mention the BOW because US Airways (east) does include the JS as part of the BOW, they wanted the express carriers to get the JS as part of the BOW for years due to a lot of guys getting bumped for weight just like at every other express carrier. The point is the UAX pilots expect the UAL pilots to create chaos to get a glitch fixed, yet do you see express guys doing the same to try to prevent guys from being bumped from their flight due to weight? When I was at express I went out of my way to accomadate guys in our JS and would have loved to have had a policy that included the JS in the BOW. However, as much as it sucked that mainline guys were routinely bumped from our express jumpseats for weight, they never threatened to block the JS to express pilots. I personally feel the ultimatum is out of line.

 

[B314Clipper]

Not a new problem

This has been going on for years. When ACA was still around we had to fight with UA to make sure our guys got on our flights. ORF was especially bad. They got mad because UA cut back the flying and replaced mainline with RJs. Not the ACA pilots fault.
The other problem was the number of jumpseaters allowed. ACA/Indy (and a lot of other LLCs) used to take as many jumpseaters as we had empty seats in the back regardless of airline. We also allowed the seat in the cockpit until 9/11 changed that. And when we had airbuses, we even let pilots ride on the FA jumpseat. We flew a lot of United guys when we were still UEX. Almost never failed that they would thank us for the ride and say that they wished that UA had the same policy. I commuted for four years and saw more than a few UA planes leave the gate with empty seats in the back because they had taken their ONE jumpseater.
I agree that you'll never win a jumpseat war, but why shouldn't the airline's own pilots have priority on their own plane?

 

[eaglesview]

This has been going on for years. When ACA was still around we had to fight with UA to make sure our guys got on our flights. ORF was especially bad. They got mad because UA cut back the flying and replaced mainline with RJs. Not the ACA pilots fault.
The other problem was the number of jumpseaters allowed. ACA/Indy (and a lot of other LLCs) used to take as many jumpseaters as we had empty seats in the back regardless of airline. We also allowed the seat in the cockpit until 9/11 changed that. And when we had airbuses, we even let pilots ride on the FA jumpseat. We flew a lot of United guys when we were still UEX. Almost never failed that they would thank us for the ride and say that they wished that UA had the same policy. I commuted for four years and saw more than a few UA planes leave the gate with empty seats in the back because they had taken their ONE jumpseater.
I agree that you'll never win a jumpseat war, but why shouldn't the airline's own pilots have priority on their own plane?

Actually we do take as many jumpseaters as we have empty seats. As I have said before the vast majority of pilots understand any pilot on their own carrier should have priority.

 

[pipe]

I couldn't agree more with the BOW policy. If you express guys want to take up a useful cause, take up that one.

I have worked at four different major airlines and have never, ever, left a jumpseater for weight. Many of us are sick of giving express guys a ride to our domicile then walking over to the express gates to be told over and over again that they're weight restricted. So weight restricted that they can't even fill the back of the airplane -- let alone the jumpseat.

I run into this all the time, on my 50 minute commute flight. And yes, we all know it's not just weight, it's often CG. Like I said, if you want to take up a worthwhile fight, make your companies put the friggin' ballast on and/or put the JS in the BOW. Yeah, it's not prudent as far as fuel efficiency goes - but neither is an RJ.

In fairness, I have had guys work the numbers with taxi fuel etc. That was done at some risk to themselves and does not go unappreciated. If you'd work to get the policy changed it would eliminate that risk.

PIPE

 

[spacecadet1]

All you regional folks, just relax. Before long there won't be any mainline left. It will just be UX. Then you can fight amongst yourselves for the JS, while commuting to work working for Walmart wages.

 

[contrail67]

All you regional folks, just relax. Before long there won't be any mainline left. It will just be UX. Then you can fight amongst yourselves for the JS, while commuting to work working for Walmart wages.

You really are not very smart are you. I suppose that you have yet to realize that United is giving you your routes to fly and paying for all your fuel too.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I couldn't agree more with the BOW policy. If you express guys want to take up a useful cause, take up that one.

I have worked at four different major airlines and have never, ever, left a jumpseater for weight. Many of us are sick of giving express guys a ride to our domicile then walking over to the express gates to be told over and over again that they're weight restricted. So weight restricted that they can't even fill the back of the airplane -- let alone the jumpseat.

I run into this all the time, on my 50 minute commute flight. And yes, we all know it's not just weight, it's often CG. Like I said, if you want to take up a worthwhile fight, make your companies put the friggin' ballast on and/or put the JS in the BOW. Yeah, it's not prudent as far as fuel efficiency goes - but neither is an RJ.

In fairness, I have had guys work the numbers with taxi fuel etc. That was done at some risk to themselves and does not go unappreciated. If you'd work to get the policy changed it would eliminate that risk.

PIPE

Yet another mainline pilot who only wants changes that benefit HIM....How long did most of the regionals take multiple jumpseats while mainline only took 1? We gladly opened every seat up to the jumpseat while you folks only took 1.

 

[eaglesview]

Yet another mainline pilot who only wants changes that benefit HIM....How long did most of the regionals take multiple jumpseats while mainline only took 1? We gladly opened every seat up to the jumpseat while you folks only took 1.

How would this policy only benefit "him" or just mainline? It would oviously benefit everyone.

As for your second point, you are correct that the mainline didn't have unlimited jumpseat till later but we do now so no use rehashing the past.

 

[Fly2AK]

Yet another mainline pilot who only wants changes that benefit HIM....How long did most of the regionals take multiple jumpseats while mainline only took 1? We gladly opened every seat up to the jumpseat while you folks only took 1.

I worked for a regional and we only took 1 JS for years until mainline changed their policy. Try to remember that management makes that policy as well as the priority system and is often used against the pilots as leverage. I had a UAL pilot violate their own policy and allow more than one JS one day at risk to himself. You want to fight, fight with management about the issue, not the pilots. So tell me JoeMerchant, if this is such a big problem why can't you do like I did and go up to the gate and make sure all nonrevs and jumpseaters get on, I did it, it takes little effort. Yes you should have priority in your own jumpseat, with out a doubt. If UAL guys are knowingly taking advantage of this then shame on them, but as the captain of that flight you are the final authority and shame on you for allowing it to happen. Gate agents will always be a pain in the ass but it is up to us to take reponsibility for our own flight. As far as weight is concerned, I always adjusted fuel down to FAR mins to make sure the JS was accomadated, whats the worst that happens you divert for an unforseen problem, big deal everyone got to there destination. For the record, in 8 1/2 years at the regionals I never diverted because of fuel for a jumpseater and I only left 1 person behind in that time and yes we left nearly 10 people behind, nasty day. How many people have the rest of you left behind do to weight and balance? or would you even know if you never go up to the gate to see whats goin on?

 

[CFIT]

I couldn't agree more with the BOW policy. If you express guys want to take up a useful cause, take up that one.

I have worked at four different major airlines and have never, ever, left a jumpseater for weight. Many of us are sick of giving express guys a ride to our domicile then walking over to the express gates to be told over and over again that they're weight restricted. So weight restricted that they can't even fill the back of the airplane -- let alone the jumpseat.

I run into this all the time, on my 50 minute commute flight. And yes, we all know it's not just weight, it's often CG. Like I said, if you want to take up a worthwhile fight, make your companies put the friggin' ballast on and/or put the JS in the BOW. Yeah, it's not prudent as far as fuel efficiency goes - but neither is an RJ.

In fairness, I have had guys work the numbers with taxi fuel etc. That was done at some risk to themselves and does not go unappreciated. If you'd work to get the policy changed it would eliminate that risk.

PIPE

There is no way UAL is going to allow that, literally SkyWest is in a battle just to keep the SkyMall catalog on. UAL wants to back charge us for the 20 pounds of paper it's costing in extra fuel use. There' no fricking way they'll let us add a JS to the BOW.

But none of that is the real issue here, Jump seaters just want priority on their own metal.

Nothing more, and it's the way it should have been in the first place.

Fix the GD software code (20 minute fix), and all of this goes away.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

There is no way UAL is going to allow that, literally SkyWest is in a battle just to keep the SkyMall catalog on. UAL wants to back charge us for the 20 pounds of paper it's costing in extra fuel use. There' no fricking way they'll let us add a JS to the BOW.

But none of that is the real issue here, Jump seaters just want priority on their own metal.

Nothing more, and it's the way it should have been in the first place.

Fix the GD software code (20 minute fix), and all of this goes away.

I know if I were in a position to help effect the change that you want, I would delay and resist, simply based on your attitude and the ultimatum Letter. Many UAL pilots are commenting on the Letter and when Skywest comes up, they state that OO aren't even unionize and that they rejected ALPA.

Right or wrong, these are the realities that you are facing... based on in part by the choices you have made....

In addition, what obligation or binding agreement does UAL or U-ALPA have to allow OO pilots priority on OO aircraft.

Of course it makes common sense that OO pilots have j/s priority on their own airplane, but since Skywest has tied its dingy to the UAL monolith, it does come with certain conditions. ie Skywest serves UAL. OO flies where UAL says, when, what to put into its cargo bins, etc...

I do believe that OO pilots should have priority on their own jumpseats... but where is it binding or obligated. And how are the UAL pilots part of the equation? (I am not saying it does or doesn't, but asking the question... from there you state your case...)

It seems this is a OO to UAL managment issue.... not each individual OO pilot and UALPA. IN the meantime this is a PIC methodology.. not an ultimatum letter... Do you have Captains at Skywest or just "guys in the left seat?"

 

[ArcticFlier]

I know if I were in a position to help effect the change that you want, I would delay and resists, simply based on your attitude and the Letter. Many UAL pilots are commenting on the Letter and when Skywest comes up, they state that OO aren't even unionize and that they rejected ALPA.

With all due respect.............and I do mean that, that's the way my 7 and 10 year old kids act when they don't get their way.

It's a simple software fix. Make the call/email.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I know if I were in a position to help effect the change that you want, I would delay and resists, simply based on your attitude and the Letter. Many UAL pilots are commenting on the Letter and when Skywest comes up, they state that OO aren't even unionize and that they rejected ALPA.

Right or wrong, these are the realities that you are facing... based on in part by the choices you have made....

More condesending lectures from the ALPA elite....He is even admiting that because you got "upety"....ALPA won't change....How dare you second class regional surfs stand up for yourselves...Don't you know where you stand in the hierarchy?

Right or wrong Rez....these are the realities that YOU are facing....based on in large part by the choices that mainline MECs and ALPA national have made...

 

[JoeMerchant]

With all due respect.............and I do mean that, that's the way my 7 and 10 year old kids act when they don't get their way.

I suspect your kids act better......:beer:

 

[ArcticFlier]

I suspect your kids act better......:beer:

They do..........but the point was made..........

I'm out for the week now. Going to see Wall-E with the kids and then off to work early tomorrow.

 

[SaturnPilot]

More condesending lectures from the ALPA elite....He is even admiting that because you got "upety"....ALPA won't change....How dare you second class regional surfs stand up for yourselves...Don't you know where you stand in the hierarchy?

Right or wrong Rez....these are the realities that YOU are facing....based on in large part by the choices that mainline MECs and ALPA national have made...

Interesting interpretation of one line of Rez's post...

Just as your opinions do not necessarily represent the opinions of the RJDC or the Republican Party, Rez's opinions are simply his own...attaching them to ALPA's stance on issues or saying they represent ALPA's elite is inaccurate.

I agree that the reaction that Rez was talking about could be seen as counter-productive. His intentions seem to be simply mentioning the reality of how UAL pilots will react to this letter. Could it be seen as childish? Sure...But he's simply stating what the UAX pilots who wrote this letter should have thought about as a potential consequence before they gambled their pilots commuting rights.

Pilots as a group get emotional, especially when they don't have all of the facts on an issue. Right or wrong, when a UAL pilot gets a letter that basically states "hi, we have a problem that you did not know about...you have 30 days to fix it, or else", he is most likely not going to respond well to the "or else".

Nobody seems to have an issue with the fact that there is a problem with the jumpseat system that needs to be fixed. The issue seems to be issuing ultimatums and using the jumpseat as a bargaining chip.

Stating that Rez thinks regional pilots are second class regional surfs is woefully ignorant since I'm guessing Rez has spent the majority of his career as a regional pilot