The Skinny on the Age 60 Rule

[3BCat]

You and those who share your perspective want everyone else in this business (the village) to stand down with our normal career progression and support your desire to continue to work. A "right" you claim uniquely for yourself. You don't care about the recently retired, the furloughed, the junior or anyone else. Just yourself.

Note to those who want to retire at 60. If your carrier still has a DB plan this will hurt you. Normal retirement age will follow any rule change, so retirement at 60 will be termed early. At CAL that means (for example) if you have 25 years at age 60 and you want to retire, you will lose 450K plus of your lump sum. This is according to a CALALPA committee member.

What is normal career progression? As far as 60 being early, yeah it's early. Five years too early. Think of that 450K as the minimum you have to lose...take the five years.

Face it, you're gonna have to work longer. Do you want to fly, or do you want fries with that? I'm thinkin' of you, champ!

 

[Flopgut]

What is normal career progression? As far as 60 being early, yeah it's early. Five years too early. Think of that 450K as the minimum you have to lose...take the five years.

Face it, you're gonna have to work longer. Do you want to fly, or do you want fries with that? I'm thinkin' of you, champ!

Normal career progression is anything that does not involve the entire seniority list taking a five year break from retirements.

My A plan benefits are frozen. The example I'm talking about would primarily be for a CAL pilot with 20-25 years who is +55 years old. Those pilots frozen A plan benefits are 75% (maybe 90%) or so of thier total retirement which would be in the range of 800k to 900k maybe. So when 60 becomes an early retirement they will lose around half their lumpsum, they will have to try to go to 65. Which, if you look at the numbers, they will end up working 2.5 years for free just to make up the loss. Great idea guys.

I have not resigned myself to working past airline retirement, I'm looking forward to it! I have zero anxiety about it and I don't see myself flying. I want a nice quiet gig with no hotel rooms, or airplane/airport food, no passengers, no fussy FAs, etc. somebody else can have a turn. But I want to insist on my fair share of this career. Raising the retirement age puts my career on hold no different than a work action interupted by replacement workers would. I'm not calling you a replacement worker, but it has the same effect on seniority.

 

[71KILO]

You and those who share your perspective want everyone else in this business (the village) to stand down with our normal career progression and support your desire to continue to work. A "right" you claim uniquely for yourself. You don't care about the recently retired, the furloughed, the junior or anyone else. Just yourself.

Note to those who want to retire at 60. If your carrier still has a DB plan this will hurt you. Normal retirement age will follow any rule change, so retirement at 60 will be termed early. At CAL that means (for example) if you have 25 years at age 60 and you want to retire, you will lose 450K plus of your lump sum. This is according to a CALALPA committee member.

You could retire at 60 if you wanted to. Sign a contract that keeps that secure. What is the point have having a union if you can't secure benefits like that.

It is my "right" to be treated fairly and to keep the things I earn like experience or seniority. You are correct, I am thinking of myself and the hard work, time, effort, money, education, GOOD DECISIONS, and planning that I put into my career. Why shouldn't I recieve every bit of compensation for those efforts. If I can't promote based on ability then seniority is the only way. Don't penalize people for becoming senior through thier hard work. this is about people feeling they are owed something. You feel you are owed a more senior position through attrition. I feel I am owed a more senior position through good decision making by me and only me. Like the decision to apply (and hopefully get hired) to a strong airline able to make it in this world. Why do you think you are owed attrition? It's not a right...

 

[Klako]

No offense to you older guys (I'm an older guy to many airline pilots now too, pushin' 40), but let's face it there is often some degradation of skills/abilities/focus as we age.

[FONT=tahoma,sans-serif]A farmer went out one day and bought a brand new stud rooster for his chicken coop. The new rooster struts over to the old rooster and says,
"OK old fart, time for you to retire." The old rooster replies, "Come on, surely you cannot handle ALL ofthese chickens. Look what it has done to me. Can't you just let me havethe two old hens over in the corner?" The young rooster says, "Beat it:You are washed up and I am taking over.." The old rooster says, "I tellyou what, young stud. I will race you around the farmhouse. Whoeverwins gets the exclusive domain over the entire chicken coop." The youngrooster laughs. "You know you don't stand a chance, old man. So, justto be fair, I will give you a head start." The old rooster takes off running. About 15 seconds later the youngrooster takes off running after him. They round the front porch of thefarmhouse and the young rooster has closed the gap. He is only about 5 feet behind the old rooster and gaining fast. Thefarmer, meanwhile, is sitting in his usual spot on the front porch whenhe sees the roosters running by. He grabs his shotgun and - BOOM - heblows the young rooster to bits. The farmer sadly shakes his head andsays, "Darn.....third gay rooster I bought this month." Moral of this story? . Don't mess with the OLD FARTS - age, skill, and treachery will alwaysovercome youth and arrogance![/FONT]

 

[3BCat]

In a manner of speaking, what you have is mine, and others that will follow me. I intend to enjoy it, respect it, try to improve it, and then pass it on.

You get quite carried away with yourself. This is a seniority system. Growth may create some opportunities, but there is only one way to get more senior. (Think about what the word senior means) You get in this business what your DOH will give you--thats it! We don't compete for "senior" [better] positions based on our merits. They don't look at your reliability, your continuing educational efforts, how well you are liked, nothing like that. Would you like to go with rostering and equipment assignments and abandon seniority? Hey, it may not be the best for me I'll admit, but I'd rather take my chances with that than just forfiet five years to you. At least with that the junior pilots have a chance at timely advancement.

I think you actually understand seniority very well. I think you understand the timing of this effort very well. I think I know why you so easily shrug off the concerns of the recently retired and why you completely dismiss the notion that you could get another non 121 job. You know this is close and its a huge homerun for you. So your just BSing with the discrimination and "its not fair" stuff. You smell the dough. You reveal as much with the statement: "whats mine is not yours".

An age change attacks seniority, It has been attacked before. There is a term for those individuals and their names are written on lists. IMHO, this is only a slightly more noble attack. I feel for pilots in your position, but we should not be asked to give so much. Why don't you offer a compromise of some sort? Its hardly a "choice" when it is so lopsided.

You're so confused, I don't know where to start.

Educate yourself on the origins of the age 60 rule. You have somehow found it noble to defend this injustice to all airline pilots. The pay and the benefits have changed. The Age 60 rule needs to change as a result. Five years for me, is five more years for you too, sport.

Attrition does not create job openings. During periods of growth, the seniorty list grows far larger than is needed for staffing the line, to cover training float. Airline managers are more than happy to let attrition deflate the seniority list. It prevents layoffs.

None of us is entitled to advancement!! This career is like a big game of musical chairs. When the music stops, you need to have a good seat. When I no longer need a chair, I' ll be glad to let someone have mine. Unless you are standing right next to me when I give it up, it ain't yours.

 

[Flopgut]

[FONT=tahoma,sans-serif]A farmer went out one day and bought a brand new stud rooster for his chicken coop. The new rooster struts over to the old rooster and says,
"OK old fart, time for you to retire." The old rooster replies, "Come on, surely you cannot handle ALL ofthese chickens. Look what it has done to me. Can't you just let me havethe two old hens over in the corner?" The young rooster says, "Beat it:You are washed up and I am taking over.." The old rooster says, "I tellyou what, young stud. I will race you around the farmhouse. Whoeverwins gets the exclusive domain over the entire chicken coop." The youngrooster laughs. "You know you don't stand a chance, old man. So, justto be fair, I will give you a head start." The old rooster takes off running. About 15 seconds later the youngrooster takes off running after him. They round the front porch of thefarmhouse and the young rooster has closed the gap. He is only about 5 feet behind the old rooster and gaining fast. Thefarmer, meanwhile, is sitting in his usual spot on the front porch whenhe sees the roosters running by. He grabs his shotgun and - BOOM - heblows the young rooster to bits. The farmer sadly shakes his head andsays, "Darn.....third gay rooster I bought this month." Moral of this story? . Don't mess with the OLD FARTS - age, skill, and treachery will alwaysovercome youth and arrogance![/FONT]

This was so dumb it hurt to read it.

I am encouraged by it though. If your musings and the input here from 3Bcat and 71Kilo are any indication of the quality of the debate you all will be taking to Washington, age 60 as a rule is quite safe. Be careful not to be too goofy, they might lower the age.

 

[Flopgut]

You're so confused, I don't know where to start.

Educate yourself on the origins of the age 60 rule. You have somehow found it noble to defend this injustice to all airline pilots. The pay and the benefits have changed. The Age 60 rule needs to change as a result. Five years for me, is five more years for you too, sport.

Attrition does not create job openings. During periods of growth, the seniorty list grows far larger than is needed for staffing the line, to cover training float. Airline managers are more than happy to let attrition deflate the seniority list. It prevents layoffs.

None of us is entitled to advancement!! This career is like a big game of musical chairs. When the music stops, you need to have a good seat. When I no longer need a chair, I' ll be glad to let someone have mine. Unless you are standing right next to me when I give it up, it ain't yours.

It could matter less what the origins of the rule are. It has been the rule for 50 years and has been applied equally through the years. You may call it discrimination, but what is interesting about your position is that you would be happy with another equally discriminating age limit as long as it is greater. (that paints you quite selfish) I'm defending parity in the profession. I don't want a windfall that another did not, or will not, get. Pay and benefits have changed, so we need to change them back! Not work longer. Age 65 is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Sure, none of us are entitled to advancement. I can partially agree with that. But retirement attrition has worked pretty darn well for the likes of you! Hasn't it? You just want a break on this because timing happens to work for you. Frankly, a person with the "entitlement" type attitude you have, is the last person I want to keep around.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Normal career progression is anything that does not involve the entire seniority list taking a five year break from retirements.

My A plan benefits are frozen. The example I'm talking about would primarily be for a CAL pilot with 20-25 years who is +55 years old. Those pilots frozen A plan benefits are 75% (maybe 90%) or so of thier total retirement which would be in the range of 800k to 900k maybe. So when 60 becomes an early retirement they will lose around half their lumpsum, they will have to try to go to 65. Which, if you look at the numbers, they will end up working 2.5 years for free just to make up the loss. Great idea guys.

Here's a little education for you At least figure out what you're arguing against.
http://www.apaad.org/Burrows%20Final%20Report.pdf

 

[Flopgut]

I am thinking of myself and the hard work, time, effort, money, education, GOOD DECISIONS, and planning that I put into my career. Why shouldn't I recieve every bit of compensation for those efforts. If I can't promote based on ability then seniority is the only way. Don't penalize people for becoming senior through thier hard work.

Good decisions, huh? In 1976 CAL was the best decision in the business. If you got hired by them you were the envy of you peers. Set for life I believe, would be the term. Well how well has that worked out? Matter of fact, I'm not sure if your point of view on "good decision" has ever held up in this business. Your calling down the thunder on some bad karma my friend. I'm guessing two things: your younger than we might all believe, and you work for SWA. I don't see your sort of behavior outside that demographic too often.

You don't become senior through hard work. You said it yourself in the sentence before that. You can't have it both ways. I'm not surprised you can't see that, you are having trouble keeping your thoughts together on your own thread with the poll. Let me ask you this: If a majority of pilots don't want the rule to change do you still think it should change anyway? Does your selfishness even transcend a democratic vote?

 

[71KILO]

Flopgut: You are having difficulty staying with me my friend. I've never discussed my experience, you assumed and you know what that makes you and me. I have been around this industry long enough to say that NOTHING is a garuntee. My personal belief is that I am not owed anything and neither are you. You seem to feel you are owed everything, standard entitlement crowd. What I said was that if you don't move up based on skill and knowledge then all you have left is seniority. Don't take seniority away then. You want seniority to be capped for all eternity. I call foul! You want to be advanced based on time but then want to make sure people don't get too much time. You are speaking out of both side of your mouth like most liberal minded fools. Now on to the idea of a democratic vote. Sounds good to me as long as the result is lawful. You see we are not a democracy. We are a government of laws. No one is above the law, not even 51%. You want the law changed use your represenative. You want the law to stay the same, use your represenative. We are democratic republic and that's how it works. Sorry we had to go to civics 101. The law as it stands says retire at 60, I will be asking my rep to repeal that rule. I'm not willing to sit in the past because you have an ancient view. Look, the law will change sooner or later. I would prefer sooner just in case I can make it to 60+ and still have a marketable skill. What was the average life span of people 50 years ago? I know it wasn't close to 80 as it is now. Final statement: Flopgut get off the government socialized plan and think for yourself. I'm sure your mind will never change and mine wont either. Good luck in your career; hope you made good choices. I'd be happy to get your gear when your over 60.

 

[3BCat]

It could matter less what the origins of the rule are. It has been the rule for 50 years and has been applied equally through the years. You may call it discrimination, but what is interesting about your position is that you would be happy with another equally discriminating age limit as long as it is greater. (that paints you quite selfish) I'm defending parity in the profession. I don't want a windfall that another did not, or will not, get. Pay and benefits have changed, so we need to change them back! Not work longer. Age 65 is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Sure, none of us are entitled to advancement. I can partially agree with that. But retirement attrition has worked pretty darn well for the likes of you! Hasn't it? You just want a break on this because timing happens to work for you. Frankly, a person with the "entitlement" type attitude you have, is the last person I want to keep around.

If you can pass the PC, the Oral, the Recurrent, the Line Check, and the Physical requirements, I say you remain competent to work. I don't care how many birthdays you've had. Is that selfish? I have what I have because I worked hard for it. I'm not pointing my finger at anyone else for my position, and I never will.

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. I think it matters a whole lot where this rule started, why it started, and why it's still in place. It's a real crime that any pilot has worked an entire career only to be shown the door because of this assinine law.

Why don't you go ahead and get all those pensions restored? No one would argue about that on this board. Go ahead and put the seniority lists back the way they were. You can't make this stuff go away. None of us can right all the wrongs or bring back the past.

Do you want to retire on your terms, or on someone else's? I vote that you get to choose. You don't seem to mind letting others choose for you. The right thing to do is to align pilot retirement with the rest of the world. It will affect my career too, because senior pilots work longer at the top.

You're just afraid to do what's right because you percieve it as a personal setback. That's selfish.

 

[Purple Promisee]

[FONT=tahoma,sans-serif]A farmer went out one day and bought a brand new stud rooster for his chicken coop.... Moral of this story? . Don't mess with the OLD FARTS - age, skill, and treachery will alwaysovercome youth and arrogance![/FONT]

Okay, but you don't have to be a cock about it!
(sorry, but, I had the shot, there was no danger....)

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

ALPA talks out of both sides of its mouth.

For 20-years they want to get rid of age 60. Then they change their minds and want to keep the age-60 rule . All of a sudden 60-year old ALPA members are unsafe they say. What changed. 2nd officer reps at first, now that has developed into fast promotions for the NOW guys.

ALPA is getting much weaker and once Agency Shop is voted out, the Union will fall apart unless it changes.

Agency shop is wrong and when it goes, as it will, the power will be gone.

ALPA's interest should be job protection, first and foremost, not promotion protection.

No wonder our profession is failing, everyone is interested in the NOW instead of the future. Young people just want that jet job now, who cares of the pay. Yes they say, give concessions now I just want to keep my job. Yes I am a coward, it's my life.

Get rid of the senior guys, I want my promotion now. I don't care about the future they say.

It is said, "What goes around, comes around."

Well I do hope these young guys have a chance to be senior so they can see what is really happening. You know what the career is becoming: A lifetime of crap. The yuppies have it now.

Maybe the future will be better, but if so, it will take major changes in attitude.

How can it be that Major airlines are allowed to outsource to an airline that is not only a non-union airline but an (enemy) alter-ego airline like Go-Jet? When things like that are permitted by the union membership at the major………that is the END.

 

[Larcifer]

I spent way to much time in the cockpit at one of the frax operators with 60+ guys and all I can say is "babysitting". Not saying they were bad people but there has to be a cutoff. They all had a severe case of tunnel vision and just didn't do a good job of seeing the big picture. I know there are 60+ guys out there that could fly circles around me but that isn't the norm. I've got 2 very close friends that were checkairman at a major for years before they retired and they will be the first to say that 60 should be a hard number.

Fire at will!

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Nice try. But the facts show that the most accidents are occurring by airline pilots in their 20's. You know they guys, the one's who want to join the 4-1-0 Club. The "Hey dude, we're not going to make it" group.

Actually, as a matter of fact, world wide many airline pilots in other countries fly past age 60 and the results are in: they are the safest.

So if safety is the issue, then there should be an age 30-rule. Minimum age for an ATP: 30-years of age.

APA and ALPA want to keep age-60 so they can hopefully be paid full pay for not working after 60. The only thing is that ALPA is too stupid to know what has been lost with US Air's, United's, Delta's and Northwest's bankruptcy. ALPA is in denial of reality and APA is trying to hold on to something that is a lie. Pension funds, just like water, seeks its own level. Say good by to a DB fund. Say hello to providing for your own retirement.

You see, those approaching age-60 just want full pay for full work.

No.............safety is no issue here.

And in a final note:

It is interesting that someone would say that he has to baby-sit the senior pilots. My experience is that the younger pilots always want to make the job too hard, much harder than it is. The most experienced guys just take the job for what it is, easy. It may look like they are coasting on your efforts, because they are, just watching all that extra work being done when there is no need for such wasted effort or concern.