The RJDC is a cancer on the industry

[FlyDeltasJets]

RJ,

I just wrote a long post answering your questions, but my stupid computer kicked me off before I could post it. Now I'm pissed!

This one will be shorter because I don't want to get kicked off again.

#1. I have never heard a single comasa MEC member ever state the need to integrate the CMR and ASA lists, but not Delta's. If they took the trouble to work out what their combined lists would look like, why not include ours? All they would have to do would be add ours to the top. Or are they hoping for more than that? We need to know before we proceed.

#2. Regardless of the motivation behind them, the monetary damages sought are obscene, unwarranted, and destroy the rjdc's claim that they are simply fighting for fair representation.


#3. I never claimed that anyone was entitled to more representation based on the amount of dues paid. I simply refuted surplus' claim that the only reason the majors paid more dues it the fact that there are more of us.

#4. I believe that you have fallen for one of the rjdc's lies. I fully recognize the need for rjs, and their value in the marketplace. I am glad that Delta has them. The fact is, Delta can operate as many of them as they want, and I hope that they do. Our only requirement is that they operate them in accordance with the contract that they signed. Once DCI hits a block hour percantage limit, the additional rjs must be flown by Delta pilots. We would negotiate a payrate for them, and if we could not agree on a rate, a system board would meet and impose one, based on certain parameters. That is in our contract, and we would comply with it. Why are we considered such villians when we ask Delta to do the same. All we want is what we have negotiated and agreed to.

 

[Draginass]

The important thing is to determine the real agenda of the RJDC.

It's highly possible that the "real" agenda is either to force a DOH (or some other very favorable) integration, or they're just management shills intent on dumbing down the profession and killing scope.

The theory that if only unlimited RJs quantity and size were allowed by mainline, everybody would be in nirvana, has raised the art of tortured logic to a new plain. Treating DAL mainline pilots like they just dropped off the turnip truck, isn't the best way for an RJ guy to go into a mainline interview.

 

[RJFlyer]

FDJ - thanks for the response.

#1: You're right, of course you need to know intent before proceeding. But just because they've proposed a COMASA list, doesn't necessarily mean they've got DOH aspirations. I haven't seen this in writing anywhere, other than in posts from people who think that's what they're asking for (ref Draginass' post above).

#2: Like I said, the amounts are preposterous, but I guess they needed to start somewhere. As I've said before, I am neither an RJDC supporter nor a detractor. I like some (ok, most) of what they're trying to accomplish, but certainly not all of it.

#3: ok, fair enough.

#4: Which lie is that? I'm sorry, but those are my own conclusions, not something spoon-fed me by the RJDC. You said "Once DCI hits a block hour percantage limit, the additional rjs must be flown by Delta pilots. We would negotiate a payrate for them..." This is the first time I have heard/read this anywhere, and while I'm sure it's true now, I'm also sure it wasn't true pre-9/11 (read pre-furlough). I'm also not sure that any Delta pilot would be willing to fly an RJ at a rate that its economics could support. I know that an offer was made by ASA to hire Delta furloughees without requiring them to resign their seniority number. I could certainly be wrong, but I haven't heard of 638 resumes flooding ASA HR.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Braniff - you say ASA, Comair and Delta are not operationally integrated. Here you go (and there are probably many I forgot)
(1) Same ownership, stock, financial results.
(2) DCI management are Delta, not Connection employees
(3) Same defined "insured" for insurance policies
(4) Same desk - employer status with the IRS
(5) We do train in the same building. Your 737 NG sim is at Flight Safety.
(6) An ASA pilot developed the Delta training program on upset recovery
(7) Common ticket stock
(8) Common marketing
(9) Delta technical operations supports the ASA fleet in ATL - maybe other places too
(10) ASA and Comair have been called in to fly dropped Delta trips. ALPA litigated over the replacement of Shuttle flight sections with Comair and lost.
(11) Same gates, same ground service personnel.
(12) Same financing
(13) Same scheduling department, same strategic planning folks.

More to the point, ASA and Comair passengers think they are on Delta and Delta uses our serivces interchangeably. The (*) on the schedule that says "this flight operated by a Delta Connection partener" is a distinction with no real difference. It is an artificial and arbitrary barrier which reduces the negotiating power of pilot labor at Delta.

You got a job at Delta - nobody is trying to take away one ounce of your prestige, or respect. You worked hard, not only on your flying, but made connections which helped you succeed. Great, Bravo, Wonderful. The thing is that you need growth to continue your success. Just waiting on Captains to die and retire is a long road.

Growth at Delta helps Connection, just as growth at Connection helps Delta. As US Air continues to crumble Delta is in position to grab 34% of US Air's market IF we have the right fleet to make money on routes that US Air could not fly profitably. Once ASA gets a passenger to Atlanta 80% of them board an outbound Delta mainline jet!

As far as the RJDC hiding behind supporters like me, your way off. The Delta MEC has been invited to engage in a debate on the ALPA board, but refuses to participate. Where is ALPA's explanation of the reasons for their predatory policies?

If you write the RJDC they will respond to any questions you have. Their agenda and reasoning are clearly published and they have made everything public.

Draginass - Go find some facts, some news, or something useful for the discussion.

 

[~~~^~~~]

#1. I have never heard a single comasa MEC member ever state the need to integrate the CMR and ASA lists, but not Delta's. If they took the trouble to work out what their combined lists would look like, why not include ours? All they would have to do would be add ours to the top. Or are they hoping for more than that? We need to know before we proceed.

Doesn't the combined ASA / Comair list suggest a staple? For one thing, our MEC's don't have official access to the Delta seniority list and playing with your list would be very presumptuous.

#2. Regardless of the motivation behind them, the monetary damages sought are obscene, unwarranted, and destroy the rjdc's claim that they are simply fighting for fair representation.

The damages calculated by the University of Cincinnatti's Economics Department exceed 600 million. The RJDC alleges only 100 million. What amount do you suggest? The most recent Delta fleet plan shows a reduction of CRJ700's from 57 to 30 and a drop of 396 options. Obviously someone is going to get hurt. If the RJDC sued for a dollar I am sure Duane Woerth would pay it out of his pocket. In fact ALPA has hinted at financial settlement as well as positions of power for the RJDC Plaintiffs - Dan Ford was not interested. However, consider that one Executive Vice President of ALPA was the lead Plaintiff in the Jet America / Alaska merger fiasco. ALPA has a history of buying off Plaintiffs - we are not interested.

The fact is, Delta can operate as many of them as they want, and I hope that they do. Our only requirement is that they operate them in accordance with the contract that they signed. Once DCI hits a block hour percantage limit, the additional rjs must be flown by Delta pilots. We would negotiate a payrate for them, and if we could not agree on a rate, a system board would meet and impose one, based on certain parameters. That is in our contract, and we would comply with it. Why are we considered such villians when we ask Delta to do the same. All we want is what we have negotiated and agreed to.

Two points. First, Delta has shown the preference to cancel the orders, shift flying outside the Delta system and revise growth downwards rather than put small jets at mainline. It would be hard to justify two pay rates & on a linear scale the Delta rates would only be about 15 - 18% more than current Connection rates. The Delta pilots are not genuinely interested in flying small jets with corresponding compensation. Lets not kid ourselves, do you want a 66% pay cut to fly an airplane 33% the size of your MD88?

Second, my union negotiated with my employer over my pay and working conditions, yet refused me representation and the right of ratification. IMHO the Delta contract was illegally negotiated and non-binding. Uner ALPA's bylaws a member in good standing has the right to ratify contracts negotiated with their employer - I never signed on to the deal that just resulted in the destruction of my upgrade possibilities.

 

[Braniff]

Answers:
1. Duh, Delta bought ASA and CMR. Just like General Electric owns NBC.
2. See #1 but DCI pilots are not DAL pilots
3. Highly debatable. What do you base this on?
4. Same Tax ID number, big whoop.
5. Actually, we contract out a lot of our simulator training. I did my 727 at Pan Am, I'm not a Pan Am pilot any more than a Pan Am pilot is a DAL pilot. Some 777 pilots train in DEN at UAL and some at Boeing in SEA. So I presume that I'm also a UAL and Boeing factory pilot as well.
6. Umm, aink. Wrong answer.
7. It was that way BEFORE the purchase.
8. See #7 (besides, does ANYONE say, "Hey, I wanna fly Comair, ASA or Skywest?" Nope, they want to fly DELTA.
9. I've seen a plane parked at the hangar, but that's absolutely it.
10. I can't remember this one, you may be right. I presume they're paying the CMR guys 73-800 mainline rates then I guess?
11. Umm, no. You took over some gates, but you're not going to have me believe that you're going to be parking at A-19, are ya?
12. See #1
13. Waaaay wrong. Take a trip by the HQ and look for the non-existent RJ desk.

So what part of the rjdefense website did you find this misinformation?

So if you're so convinced that you're a Delta pilot, how come you haven't applied for single-carrier status?

Oh, I remember, your lawyers told you to sue us and hope for a settlement.

Braniff

 

[~~~^~~~]

Braniff, most of those are public information - not RJDC stuff. As far as the insurance information, Delta's insurer is a client of mine in the business that allows me to live since my hobby at ASA does not pay the bills.

Again, what few differences there are between our operations are distinctions with no real difference. In the eyes of our customers and the marketplace we are the same airline.

I have found that pilots who need to point out the differences in our operations do so simply to make themselves feel superior, which is fine by me. In any case one list would result in 3,000 more pilots under you on a combined seniority list, which is vastly superior to where I would be on that list.

Having me on a separate list is a threat to your job. We are an alter ego version of Delta. There are over 4,500 pilots performing Delta Connection flying and if your negotiations with management over scope get nasty, these pilots could quickly be trained on any equipment in the fleet. Besides, we are a cheap version of you. Getting rid of us increases your value.

How do you get rid of Connection pilots? The best way to control us is one list. Under one list we have one MEC, one contract, and one airline performing Delta domestic narrow body flying. It is ALPA policy under the Constitution and Bylaws, why not? You will remain in a superior position, in fact a position superior to where you are at this moment.

Regards,
~~~^~~~

 

[Draginass]

If this is true, why not file for formal legal recognition as single carrier status under the NMB?

Sure beats the heck out of the expense of lawsuits, bad blood, etc, AND may get a more favorable seniority merge as under ALPA rules.

 

[Caveman]

I regularly fly with Captains that are retired military, usually O-5, and once even an O-6. They are mostly fighter guys. Lots of masters degrees. They are all WELL qualified to fly for DAL or ANY other major. Why don't they? They were unfortunate to be born in the wrong year. You see, when they all retired from the military around 90-91 there wasn't anybody hiring. They took the only jobs that were available at the time and that was flying a Saab or a Metro for Comair. By the time hiring resumed they were 50+ and had pretty good seniority where they were. They are flying state of the art equipment and making around $100K a year. Why would they give that up to sit reserve in a 72? You guys that demonize the senior guys at airlines like ASA/ Comair don't have a freaking clue of what you are talking about. Just like any airline, we have a few, very few, nut cases. 99% percent of the Captains I've flown with were extremely professional, extraordinarily competent, and **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** fine human beings. Anybody that disparages these folks is, at best, ill-informed and, at worst, an idiot.

 

[E120ASA]

Well Said...

 

[surplus1]

If this is true, why not file for formal legal recognition as single carrier status under the NMB?

I really hate to do this but I truly feel that both you and Braniff need to educate yourselves on what "single carrier status under the NMB" actually means. You obviously don't know.

The fact is we already have single carrier status as defined by the NMB. We are represented by the same collective bargaining agent, i.e., the ALPA. That is all that it means.

If it meant what you fellas seem to believe it does, we would have long since applied and won. The criteria established by the NMB for operational integration are minimal and have all been exceeded. It is only the politically motivated imagination of the ALPA Executive Council that concludes we are not operationally integrated. Their conclusion is as meaningless as your supposition.

Sorry, I don't mean to chastise you personally for your views and it is not my intent to offend you but like much of the rhetoric on this and other forums, the makers are more often uninformed, misinformed. illinformed or more simply, in left field asking who's on first.

Unfortunately, that is a primary factor in our inability to achieve constructive dialogue, let alone a settlement of the issues that divide us.

 

[surplus1]

Besides, if your qualifications were so godlike, why aren't you flying a UAL 747-400? THAT's the top of the world, airline-wise. But let me guess, you're going to save the world from the seat on a CL-65.
Braniff

That's really childish and I should ignore it. However, there is a simple reason why I am not flying a UAL 747-400. I don't work for United Airlines. I suspect you work for Delta, therefore it is unlikely that you will fly a 747-400 either.

By the way, I stopped comparing who's was bigger when I got out of high school. This sort of banter is beneath us both, so stop it.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Just a couple of quick points to clear up some misconceptions that seem to be floating around this board. It has been said that DALPA did, or does, not want to fly rjs. One poster even used the fact that ASA does not have many furloughed Delta guys applying as evidence of this. For the record, I will not apply to ASA because I will not commute to reserve for first year f/o pay at ASA. Been there, done that. However, that does not mean that I would not want to fly them for Delta.

Anyway, on to my points...

#1. Delta pilots have absolutely zero power to force management to buy a certain airplane, nor do we have any power to refuse any airplanes. Management can buy and operate any airplane they want, and we cannot do a thing about it...nor would we want to.

#2. Despite what has been stated on these boards, the Delta pilot group is not, nor have they ever been against flying rjs. Perhaps a few idiots have made stupid statements to the contrary, but that doesn't change the official stance of the Delta MEC. We want now the same thing that we always have, for Delta to abide by our contract. It is not our decision how they do that. I hope that they continue to grow the airline. However, there is only one legal way that they do that...Once they hit the block hour limit, further growth must be mainline. Management is attempting to break our contract on block hour restrictions, claiming "circumstances beyond their control" are preventing them from complying with our contract. We are grieving this, and I think that we will win. As far as I am concerned, the grievance should go something like this...

Arbitrator: Do you have control over who flies your airplanes?

Company: Yes.

Arbitrator: Do you have control over what airline gets your new airplanes?

Company: Yes.

Arbitrator: Then these circumstances are not beyond your control. You lose. Comply with the contract that you signed!


That is how I hope the grievance will go. Of course in real life there will be a lot more lawyertalk, but you get the jist! Hopefully the outcome is the same. I suppose we'll have to wait and see.

 

[WIDGETBOY]

I love all these post about senior guys at the regional with there so called great pay and quailty of life and not wanting to go back to reserve.

1. reserve- if you commute weather at a major or regional it sucks but if you live at you base at some majors such as Delta it can be good with there 12 hour long call. Consider this my Dad also works for Delta and is a junior MD-88/90 CA at dfw and was on reserve all last year and only work 64 days last year and made 210K and lives over 2 hrs from dfw. I would say not to bad.

2. Pay- Before 9-11 I was going to be a DD-88/90 fo and in May of this year I was going to be on 2nd year pay. My pay was going to be a min. of 7600 a month or just over 91K a year on reserve. Again I would say not to bad.

3. Quailty of life- I was at eagle for 2 1/2 years and for most of it I was a ATR FO at DFW which had the best lines at eagle. Even when I left the ATR at #11 on the seniorty list my best line was not as good as my SRL line after 3 month on line Delta which was 3 on 7 off 3 on 6 off 5 on 4 off 3 on.

If you suport RJDC you may never have the chance to experince the life at a major which in most cases is better than any life at a regional.

 

[Timebuilder]

I think your lifestyle comparisons are valid.

If, however, you look at the Big Picture, and include the economy, the post 9/11 social and political environment, not to mention what was happening at the Majors before these changes during a robust economy, you will realize that there is a paradigm shift.

The result of this shift is the change in flying overall, from commercial to fractional and private, and from large to small jet.

The bottom line is the loss of much of what we know as Mainline flying. Southwest will be doing well in five years. US probably won't. Delta, AA, and United have a long, long,road ahead. This means that a great many of us won't be flying for a Major in our careers (we can't all fly for Southwest or some other large airframe carrier) so we will be manning the cockpits that WILL be flying: corporate, fractional, regional, and the like.

Very few of us, although we wish you Major pilots no ill will, have a realistic possibility of being damaged by this ALPA problem. It would be a tragedy indeed if a settlement can not be reached before a judge rules. As a Delta pilot, and a holder of what most of us think of as "The Dream Job", you should be "highly motivated" to get this thing done.

The rest of us, most of us, are interested bystanders where Delta is concerned. A better life for the RJ crew, on the other hand, will have a very large impact for most of us. That's the dog that I have in this fight.

 

[73GDog]

I regularly fly with Captains that are retired military, usually O-5, and once even an O-6. They are mostly fighter guys. Lots of masters degrees. They are all WELL qualified to fly for DAL or ANY other major.



Caveman,
I flew the RJ for ASA and have to say that the vast majority of Captains I flew with were not college educated. I regularly fly with Captains at Delta who have graduate degrees but never at ASA. Maybe things have changed at the regionals since I left.

 

[73GDog]

I think your lifestyle comparisons are valid.



The result of this shift is the change in flying overall, from to fractional and private, and from large to small jet


Timebuilder,
I have to disagree that the majority of flying will shift from large aircraft to small aircraft. Although it certainly looks that way today with everything that is going on with the RJ, we still have a very big problem facing our national air traffic system; a lack of concrete. An RJ takes up a slot same as a 777 and I believe certain airports like LaGuardia which accept RJs will at some point in time deny any aircraft with under say, 150 seats from landing. Certain airports need to maximize the number of passengers due to limited slots. I very well may be way off on this however; I believe the RJ will peak in the next couple of years and volume will be the answer to many problems ATC is facing. I believe management is using the RJ as a tool to cause damage to the piloting profession and realizes the RJ is not the answer to its problems.

 

[Braniff]

Hey ~~~~^~~~~ - if flying at your airline admittedly doesn't "pay the bills" why in hell do you want to allow that to fester through the industry?

I keep hearing about "...making $100,000..." flying an RJ. I'm not sure where you guys live, but $100,000 really isn't a lot of money after taxes in this profession.

Besides, $100,000 is FRIGGEN 3rd YEAR FO PAY! That's not much to brag about. Besides, my brother without a college degree almost makes that working for a cheese products company -- in PRODUCTION. True story! Wearing white smock and a hair net can pay pretty well to my suprise.

If it takes me 18 years to crack $100,000, I wouldn't run out and build a parade float about it.

Braniff

 

[TurboS7]

I have been told that pilot's only know how to destroy themselves and their jobs. After reading all of this RJDC insanity and see the way everyone goes for it I have to agree with that person. Unemployment went down this week at this rate the pilot unemployment is about to go way up.

 

[Braniff]

Surplus 1

You said, "That's really childish and I should ignore it. However, there is a simple reason why I am not flying a UAL 747-400. I don't work for United Airlines. I suspect you work for Delta, therefore it is unlikely that you will fly a 747-400 either. "

A ha!

So I should *sue* UAL for my inability to fly a 747-400. We'll call it the "Big Jet Defense Network".

But I'll settle for the low price of $100,000,000. And one of those CD's with "Rhapsody in Blue" on it so I can play it on the drive to work.

But if you want to fly the big jets, apply for an airline that FLIES the big jets.

I'm going to laugh my ass off when the judge says, "Well, did you bother APPLYING to mainline?" "Umm, no sir, I chose to ignore the biggest hiring swing in 20 years", "Case dismissed".

Braniff