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The RJDC is a cancer on the industry

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FlyDeltasJets said:

I think that you are more likely to find a white house secretary who wasn't groped by clinton than a Delta pilot who supports the rjdc!

That's witty and probably true too.

I can't help but ask you: Why is it that you and some other major airline pilots that write on this issue seem eager to make this litigation a war between Delta pilots and Comair or ASA pilot's?

The real fight is between the litigants and the ALPA.

Sometimes it seems to me that we are trying to emulate the the crisis between the Israelis and the Palestinians. I have trouble imagining how either one of them will emerge victorious. Neither will we.

For example, if the RJDC wins its lawsuit, I think the end result will be little more than the majors leaving ALPA to prevent the outcome, just as the AC pilots left CALPA. And if the RJDC should lose, you'll just say "we told you so" and then ask them to leave.

One other thing will happen if they win. ALPA will no longer be able to violate its DFR. That would be a sweet victory.
 
Surplus1-

Why are we considering it WAR?

Look at the first line of the "RJDC financial pledge form" and this is quoted VERBATIM:

"Yes, I want to help the RJ Defense Coalition protect the ASA and Comair pilots from the attempts of the Delta MEC and ALPA National to restrict the RJs and harm our careers."

That's VERBATIM.

Now tell me, how isn't that war? RJDC is amassing money to sue my ass, but I'm supposed to come out because they just want to "talk about it"?
 
Surplus,

You advise us to "get our facts straight", yet you take yours directly from the rjdc's spin page. If you want facts, I suggest that you read the actual lawsuit, and don't rely on what the rjdc wants people to believe.

The relief section asks for a permanent injunction preventing ALPA from "approving, or imposing those portions of the Scope Clause of the tentative agreement (now our PWA) that would impose restrictions on flying by Comair." Read that again closely. If a judge approves that request, then there is nothing that could prevent management from giving our 777's to comair. A wage war would start, and we as a "profession" would find ourselves flying widebodies for peanuts. As I have said before, there are people on your property who have paid $10,000 to fly a turboprop. What do you think they would pay for a 777. Don't believe this could happen? Look at what management is doing right now with DCI flying. Your failure to negotiate a meaningful scope clause for the 35% of Delta flying that you are allocated has resulted in a whipsaw situation that has had the president of DCI bragging that "whomever is cheaper gets the flying." If it's all the same to the rjdc, I'd just as soon not come to that party.

The lawsuit goes on to seek to enjoin ALPA from "negotiating, facilitating or advocating the use of scope clauses in collective bargaining agreements in such a manner as to excercise control over the flying of pilots for a carrier other than the one for which the collective bargaining agreement is being negotiated." Because we codeshare with skywest, Section 1.D.2(c) of our contract forbids them from flying anything over 70 seats. Can that be construed as "exercising control" over the skywest pilots. Of course. But every major airline has similar language in their contracts. If this lawsuit wins, than it is not a stretch to imagine 737's in mesa colors. They have threatened it already, but the U PWA forbids it. We thought we had a tough time competing with LUV's downward pressure on our pay scales (which have led to "b" scales like Delta Express, Shuttle by UAL and Metrojet)? Wait until mesa and tsa start flying similar size equipment. We'll be screwed.

The fact is, there is not a scope clause in the world that does not exercise some degree of "control" over another pilot group. It is a necessary evil in our fight to keep this profession one of which we can be proud. If you think that you can eliminate only the scope which you find distasteful and leave the others, than you have been misinformed. Management will use this case as a precendent to get courts to eliminate every scope clause. If you don't think that they will do this, than you have either not been in this industry very long, or you choosing to ignore the lessons of our past.
 
Braniff said:
And for the record, I've always supported a flow thru agreement for the pilots that meet the minimum requirements of the mainline carrier.
Braniff

Well Braniff, that's very nice of you. If I were a mainline pilot I would also support flow-through. It is free furlough protection for you and comes only at the expense of most pilots on the regional list. What logical reason remains to oppose it?

The thing that galls me most about flow through rhetoric is the idea that most mainline pilots seem to have, i.e., that it is yours to grant or deny.

The fact is none of you have the power to grant it and none of you have the power or the right to deny it. That perogative rests exclusively with management. If a regional pilot group wants flow through, then they should negotiate it for themselves. Whether you apporove or not is totally irrelevant.
 
surplus1 said:



The thing that galls me most about flow through rhetoric is the idea that most mainline pilots seem to have, i.e., that it is yours to grant or deny.

The fact is none of you have the power to grant it and none of you have the power or the right to deny it. That perogative rests exclusively with management. If a regional pilot group wants flow through, then they should negotiate it for themselves. Whether you apporove or not is totally irrelevant.


For the record, Surplus, we agree on this point. Yet the rjdc seems to think we have the power to merge the lists. That is yet another thing that they are asking for in their suit.
 
Timebuilder said:

Alright. This is a hot button issue, so let's see if cooler heads can prevail here.


Congratulations Timebuilder. You have grasped the true substance of the debate. So far I note, as expected, that none of the anti - rjdc crowd has responded to you. They won't, there is just too much logic in what you said.

Oops, I blew it. Now that I have responded they will all be getting on the bandwagon just to prove me wrong.

Thank you for you level headed commentary.
 
Exactly. A flow through is a hiring scheme, and has nothing to do with the rjdc. And, the rjdc is aware that ALPA, as well as Delta's MEC could not grant a merger. So, why were they unwilling to even TALK about it? Seems to me like they had nothing to lose.
 
FDJ,
A comair pilot flying a 777, that's a good one. Thanks for helping to make light of this serious situation. Of course, you know the best way to prevent this from happening. One list. Thanks.
 
skydiverdriver said:
FDJ,
Of course, you know the best way to prevent this from happening. One list. Thanks.

SDD,

Agreed, 100%. Onelist is the answer. It is just our methods which are diametrically opposed. As for the litigation, if there was ever a case of the ends NOT justifying the means, IMHO, this is it.
 
Okay, I'm game. Metro, please tell me what method YOU would have us take. Please remember that we tried to talk, both to the Delta MEC and to ALPA before our lawyer told us to file a lawsuit. In fact, they are still talking, as they are trying for an out of court settlement. Please tell me the better way, and perhaps I will support it. Thanks.
 
skydiverdriver said:
FDJ,
A comair pilot flying a 777, that's a good one. Thanks for helping to make light of this serious situation. Of course, you know the best way to prevent this from happening. One list. Thanks.

SDD,

Unfortunately, I was not joking. In my earlier post, I took the time to research the rjdc lawsuit, and posted what I thought was an intelligent argument, using their language, of how all scope was threatened by the rjdc. I notice than no one has taken the time to refute any of my points. I wish they would, because I think that they go to the heart of the matter.

As a matter of fact, on another thread you asked why nobody had responded to your allegation that the rjdc only threatened the scope of mainline carriers who owned regionals. I believe that I have responded to your point, and proven that the rjdc is a threat to ALL scope. Yet my post has been ignored, or worse, treated like a joke.

I could not have been more serious. Ignore my points at your, and all of our peril
 
ASA and Comair are such cheap operations, they cannot afford to clean a 30 seat airplane, flush the lav, or get fuel without begging for it. I don't think they could even park a 737 without ripping the wings off. I wouldn't worry about them operating anything bigger than an RJ.
What I would worry about is the fact that while Rj's are being focused on, Delta keeps adding Sky Team partners. Those high paying international jobs are the ones to worry about. Does anyone else see this as a problem?
 

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