The RJDC is a cancer on the industry

[RJFlyer]

Braniff,

It frightens me that when I am deadheading from DFW to ATL on Delta, that someone as immature as you might be in the cockpit.

 

[Draginass]

If operationally integrated, you should apply for single carrier status with the NMB.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Surplus,

Good post. I'm glad to see that you have given the matter some thought. I suck at the quote function, as has been proven in a previous post, so I will just address your points without quoting them. Please let me know if I miss any.

#1. I would like it to be said first that you and I agree on many points. I support onelist (only with a staple). I believe that ALPA, with the help of the Delta MEC, made a huge mistake in the early 90's when they allowed ANY jet to be flown by a connection carrier. If they had refused to allow jets to feed mainline, instead mandating that all jets be flown BY mainline, you and I might not be having this conversation. They (I wasn't at DAL yet!) made a huge mistake, and now we are trying to correct it. You are correct regarding Pogo's (actually, Walt Kelly's...I like trivia too!) quote. We screwed up.

Unfortunately, we have limited means to correct this mistake. The best is onelist. Unfortunately, I don't think that we will ever achieve it. Management is committed to exploiting the cost difference between our lists. I think that the fact that they accepted an 89 day strike proves their resolve. We have no legal authority to force a merger, even if the PID had been approved. It is my opinion that even if all three groups were committed enough to strike for the cause, management would sell ASA and CMR before they would merge the lists. However, I am not opposed to trying, on one condition...A staple must be agreed on in advance. Right or wrong, that is a political reality. By necessity, the Delta pilots would have to make the most sacrifice to merge the lists. That is not objectionable to me. I am not selfish, and I believe that this is a good cause. However, I will not sacrifice a single number of my seniority. Nor will anyone I have ever asked. I do not know if that caveat is acceptable to the ASA and CMR pilots. If it is not, they can still attempt to merge our lists. I just wouldn't expect any help from the Delta pilots. It will be interesting to see what the ASA and CMR MECs do. I find it very interesting that they have already proposed what the merged seniority list of ASA and CMR would look like, but have not included Delta in their fictional merger. To me, that gives the appearance that they are hoping for more than a staple.

The only other means of protection left is scope. I think that the ASA pilots are learning now the pitfalls of not having a strong scope clause. It is exactly for this reason that we are committed to protecting ours.

#2. I posted language from the lawsuit. I believe that the language is clear and unambiguous. I posted what I feel that the results of a rjdc win would be. You correctly stated that my points were only my opinion. Your opinion differs.

However, I feel that I backed up my opinion with the suit's actual language. Your opinion is backed up only with conjecture. Without meaning any disrespect to you, your guesses about what a judge might or might not do does not alleviate my fears. For the record, I hope that you are right. I fear that you are not.

#3. Much of your post deals with your perception of fair treatment for all members of ALPA. The constitution and bylaws were written to ensure that fair treatment. If they were not followed during the PID, then I fully support your right to sue. I find nothing wrong with a lawsuit designed to force a neutral to examine our c and bl's and ensure that they are followed. However, the rjdc's lawsuit goes far beyond that. They lost my support when they included punitive damages of $100,000,000 and "no less than $2,000,000" per comair pilot. They angered me greatly when they attacked a negotiated and hard-won section of our contract. By including these things, they have gone from altrustic seekers of fairness to selfish malcontents out only for their own gain.

That being said, I don't think that any union of our size has the ability to represent everyone in the same way. Everyone should have equal access to union benefits, and I feel that they do, despite the fact that certain groups pay more (not only as a result of sheer numbers, as you assert, but on a per pilot basis as well). However, due to the amout of members and the variety of views, not everyone's agenda can possibly be advanced. It is the job of the union to protect the interests of the majority of its members when there is a conflict. It is also the job of the union to advance the profession. I believe that what they are attempting to do with strong scope clauses. I will give you an example. I flew for Mesa airlines. We were represented by ALPA. Yet we codeshared for U. Their scope clause (negotiated by ALPA) prevented us from flying anything over 50 seats. Therefore, it can be argued that ALPA negotiated a contract that harmed my career. I chose to, and still do, look at it differently. By preventing us from flying larger airplanes, if forced mainline to operate them instead. That helped, not hindered my career as I and the vast majority of commuter pilots wanted to fly for a mainline carrier. Therefore, I believe that ALPA helped my career in the long run. It may have hurt a few senior guys like the leadership of the rjdc. However, it helped the majority of the members. As far as I am concerned, that is all that you can ask of any union.

 

[Braniff]

I may sound immature, but I'm simply sick and tired of RJDC's distortions. Whenever ANYONE puts a little heat on the debate, they either disappear, talk about how DAL pilots are a bunch of arrogant ex-fighter jocks, talk about how we thumbed our nose at them when management purchased them, etc.

They're like the Taliban. Instead of putting up a forum on rjdefense.com, you guys are spreading into cells around the internet and we've got to constantly hunt you guys down and counter your arguments.

If rjdefense.com had any balls, they'd put a forum at THEIR website and stop jumping around cyberspace playing peek-a-boo.

 

[RJFlyer]

FDJ - good post. I have a few questions, though.

It will be interesting to see what the ASA and CMR MECs do. I find it very interesting that they have already proposed what the merged seniority list of ASA and CMR would look like, but have not included Delta in their fictional merger. To me, that gives the appearance that they are hoping for more than a staple.

How does the proposed merged seniority list of ASA/CMR give the appearance of anything in regard to a DL/ASA/CMR onelist? It would seem to me to be the easiest route to merge the two smaller lists, then deal with the larger later (since it seems the DALPA MEC is reluctant to even consider it).

Re: point #3 - I agree that the monetary figures the RJDC is including are rather preposterous, but ask your MEC negotiators whether they walk into negotiations asking only for the minimum they are willing to accept. I think not. I believe this is the RJDC's 'starting point,' from which some meaningful settlement can arise.

certain groups pay more (not only as a result of sheer numbers, as you assert, but on a per pilot basis as well)

This is true, but we all pay the same percentage of our income. If you deserve 'more' representation than I do simply because you are paid more, then does the 777 DL captain deserve 'more' representation than the 737 DL FO? I don't think so.

Their scope clause (negotiated by ALPA) prevented us from flying anything over 50 seats. Therefore, it can be argued that ALPA negotiated a contract that harmed my career. I chose to, and still do, look at it differently. By preventing us from flying larger airplanes, if forced mainline to operate them instead. That helped, not hindered my career as I and the vast majority of commuter pilots wanted to fly for a mainline carrier.

True again, but the economic realities (both as a result of the recession and the public's altered view of flying) have dramatically changed. Where there used to be enough people on the DFW-MLU (as an example) flights to justify a larger aircraft, there no longer are. So rather than give up flights to/from MLU altogether, they have been 'downgraded' to the RJ, which can still operate the route profitably. This applies to the 70-seater as well. The smallest aircraft DL operates is a 107-seat configuration 737-200. The CR7 can still carry 45-50 passengers profitably, where the 737 can't. But instead of allowing the company to operate profitably, your DALPA would rather have nobody flying to MLU, or have the company continue to operate at a loss so no DL pilots are furloughed.

Don't get me wrong, I think the fact that DL pilots are on the street sucks. But the fact remains that the sooner the load factors improve on the DCI routes, the sooner DL mainline can come in and take over those routes once again, and my RJ can be re-deployed elsewhere.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

RJ,

I just wrote a long post answering your questions, but my stupid computer kicked me off before I could post it. Now I'm pissed!

This one will be shorter because I don't want to get kicked off again.

#1. I have never heard a single comasa MEC member ever state the need to integrate the CMR and ASA lists, but not Delta's. If they took the trouble to work out what their combined lists would look like, why not include ours? All they would have to do would be add ours to the top. Or are they hoping for more than that? We need to know before we proceed.

#2. Regardless of the motivation behind them, the monetary damages sought are obscene, unwarranted, and destroy the rjdc's claim that they are simply fighting for fair representation.


#3. I never claimed that anyone was entitled to more representation based on the amount of dues paid. I simply refuted surplus' claim that the only reason the majors paid more dues it the fact that there are more of us.

#4. I believe that you have fallen for one of the rjdc's lies. I fully recognize the need for rjs, and their value in the marketplace. I am glad that Delta has them. The fact is, Delta can operate as many of them as they want, and I hope that they do. Our only requirement is that they operate them in accordance with the contract that they signed. Once DCI hits a block hour percantage limit, the additional rjs must be flown by Delta pilots. We would negotiate a payrate for them, and if we could not agree on a rate, a system board would meet and impose one, based on certain parameters. That is in our contract, and we would comply with it. Why are we considered such villians when we ask Delta to do the same. All we want is what we have negotiated and agreed to.

 

[Draginass]

The important thing is to determine the real agenda of the RJDC.

It's highly possible that the "real" agenda is either to force a DOH (or some other very favorable) integration, or they're just management shills intent on dumbing down the profession and killing scope.

The theory that if only unlimited RJs quantity and size were allowed by mainline, everybody would be in nirvana, has raised the art of tortured logic to a new plain. Treating DAL mainline pilots like they just dropped off the turnip truck, isn't the best way for an RJ guy to go into a mainline interview.

 

[RJFlyer]

FDJ - thanks for the response.

#1: You're right, of course you need to know intent before proceeding. But just because they've proposed a COMASA list, doesn't necessarily mean they've got DOH aspirations. I haven't seen this in writing anywhere, other than in posts from people who think that's what they're asking for (ref Draginass' post above).

#2: Like I said, the amounts are preposterous, but I guess they needed to start somewhere. As I've said before, I am neither an RJDC supporter nor a detractor. I like some (ok, most) of what they're trying to accomplish, but certainly not all of it.

#3: ok, fair enough.

#4: Which lie is that? I'm sorry, but those are my own conclusions, not something spoon-fed me by the RJDC. You said "Once DCI hits a block hour percantage limit, the additional rjs must be flown by Delta pilots. We would negotiate a payrate for them..." This is the first time I have heard/read this anywhere, and while I'm sure it's true now, I'm also sure it wasn't true pre-9/11 (read pre-furlough). I'm also not sure that any Delta pilot would be willing to fly an RJ at a rate that its economics could support. I know that an offer was made by ASA to hire Delta furloughees without requiring them to resign their seniority number. I could certainly be wrong, but I haven't heard of 638 resumes flooding ASA HR.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Braniff - you say ASA, Comair and Delta are not operationally integrated. Here you go (and there are probably many I forgot)
(1) Same ownership, stock, financial results.
(2) DCI management are Delta, not Connection employees
(3) Same defined "insured" for insurance policies
(4) Same desk - employer status with the IRS
(5) We do train in the same building. Your 737 NG sim is at Flight Safety.
(6) An ASA pilot developed the Delta training program on upset recovery
(7) Common ticket stock
(8) Common marketing
(9) Delta technical operations supports the ASA fleet in ATL - maybe other places too
(10) ASA and Comair have been called in to fly dropped Delta trips. ALPA litigated over the replacement of Shuttle flight sections with Comair and lost.
(11) Same gates, same ground service personnel.
(12) Same financing
(13) Same scheduling department, same strategic planning folks.

More to the point, ASA and Comair passengers think they are on Delta and Delta uses our serivces interchangeably. The (*) on the schedule that says "this flight operated by a Delta Connection partener" is a distinction with no real difference. It is an artificial and arbitrary barrier which reduces the negotiating power of pilot labor at Delta.

You got a job at Delta - nobody is trying to take away one ounce of your prestige, or respect. You worked hard, not only on your flying, but made connections which helped you succeed. Great, Bravo, Wonderful. The thing is that you need growth to continue your success. Just waiting on Captains to die and retire is a long road.

Growth at Delta helps Connection, just as growth at Connection helps Delta. As US Air continues to crumble Delta is in position to grab 34% of US Air's market IF we have the right fleet to make money on routes that US Air could not fly profitably. Once ASA gets a passenger to Atlanta 80% of them board an outbound Delta mainline jet!

As far as the RJDC hiding behind supporters like me, your way off. The Delta MEC has been invited to engage in a debate on the ALPA board, but refuses to participate. Where is ALPA's explanation of the reasons for their predatory policies?

If you write the RJDC they will respond to any questions you have. Their agenda and reasoning are clearly published and they have made everything public.

Draginass - Go find some facts, some news, or something useful for the discussion.

 

[~~~^~~~]

#1. I have never heard a single comasa MEC member ever state the need to integrate the CMR and ASA lists, but not Delta's. If they took the trouble to work out what their combined lists would look like, why not include ours? All they would have to do would be add ours to the top. Or are they hoping for more than that? We need to know before we proceed.

Doesn't the combined ASA / Comair list suggest a staple? For one thing, our MEC's don't have official access to the Delta seniority list and playing with your list would be very presumptuous.

#2. Regardless of the motivation behind them, the monetary damages sought are obscene, unwarranted, and destroy the rjdc's claim that they are simply fighting for fair representation.

The damages calculated by the University of Cincinnatti's Economics Department exceed 600 million. The RJDC alleges only 100 million. What amount do you suggest? The most recent Delta fleet plan shows a reduction of CRJ700's from 57 to 30 and a drop of 396 options. Obviously someone is going to get hurt. If the RJDC sued for a dollar I am sure Duane Woerth would pay it out of his pocket. In fact ALPA has hinted at financial settlement as well as positions of power for the RJDC Plaintiffs - Dan Ford was not interested. However, consider that one Executive Vice President of ALPA was the lead Plaintiff in the Jet America / Alaska merger fiasco. ALPA has a history of buying off Plaintiffs - we are not interested.

The fact is, Delta can operate as many of them as they want, and I hope that they do. Our only requirement is that they operate them in accordance with the contract that they signed. Once DCI hits a block hour percantage limit, the additional rjs must be flown by Delta pilots. We would negotiate a payrate for them, and if we could not agree on a rate, a system board would meet and impose one, based on certain parameters. That is in our contract, and we would comply with it. Why are we considered such villians when we ask Delta to do the same. All we want is what we have negotiated and agreed to.

Two points. First, Delta has shown the preference to cancel the orders, shift flying outside the Delta system and revise growth downwards rather than put small jets at mainline. It would be hard to justify two pay rates & on a linear scale the Delta rates would only be about 15 - 18% more than current Connection rates. The Delta pilots are not genuinely interested in flying small jets with corresponding compensation. Lets not kid ourselves, do you want a 66% pay cut to fly an airplane 33% the size of your MD88?

Second, my union negotiated with my employer over my pay and working conditions, yet refused me representation and the right of ratification. IMHO the Delta contract was illegally negotiated and non-binding. Uner ALPA's bylaws a member in good standing has the right to ratify contracts negotiated with their employer - I never signed on to the deal that just resulted in the destruction of my upgrade possibilities.

 

[Braniff]

Answers:
1. Duh, Delta bought ASA and CMR. Just like General Electric owns NBC.
2. See #1 but DCI pilots are not DAL pilots
3. Highly debatable. What do you base this on?
4. Same Tax ID number, big whoop.
5. Actually, we contract out a lot of our simulator training. I did my 727 at Pan Am, I'm not a Pan Am pilot any more than a Pan Am pilot is a DAL pilot. Some 777 pilots train in DEN at UAL and some at Boeing in SEA. So I presume that I'm also a UAL and Boeing factory pilot as well.
6. Umm, aink. Wrong answer.
7. It was that way BEFORE the purchase.
8. See #7 (besides, does ANYONE say, "Hey, I wanna fly Comair, ASA or Skywest?" Nope, they want to fly DELTA.
9. I've seen a plane parked at the hangar, but that's absolutely it.
10. I can't remember this one, you may be right. I presume they're paying the CMR guys 73-800 mainline rates then I guess?
11. Umm, no. You took over some gates, but you're not going to have me believe that you're going to be parking at A-19, are ya?
12. See #1
13. Waaaay wrong. Take a trip by the HQ and look for the non-existent RJ desk.

So what part of the rjdefense website did you find this misinformation?

So if you're so convinced that you're a Delta pilot, how come you haven't applied for single-carrier status?

Oh, I remember, your lawyers told you to sue us and hope for a settlement.

Braniff

 

[~~~^~~~]

Braniff, most of those are public information - not RJDC stuff. As far as the insurance information, Delta's insurer is a client of mine in the business that allows me to live since my hobby at ASA does not pay the bills.

Again, what few differences there are between our operations are distinctions with no real difference. In the eyes of our customers and the marketplace we are the same airline.

I have found that pilots who need to point out the differences in our operations do so simply to make themselves feel superior, which is fine by me. In any case one list would result in 3,000 more pilots under you on a combined seniority list, which is vastly superior to where I would be on that list.

Having me on a separate list is a threat to your job. We are an alter ego version of Delta. There are over 4,500 pilots performing Delta Connection flying and if your negotiations with management over scope get nasty, these pilots could quickly be trained on any equipment in the fleet. Besides, we are a cheap version of you. Getting rid of us increases your value.

How do you get rid of Connection pilots? The best way to control us is one list. Under one list we have one MEC, one contract, and one airline performing Delta domestic narrow body flying. It is ALPA policy under the Constitution and Bylaws, why not? You will remain in a superior position, in fact a position superior to where you are at this moment.

Regards,
~~~^~~~

 

[Draginass]

If this is true, why not file for formal legal recognition as single carrier status under the NMB?

Sure beats the heck out of the expense of lawsuits, bad blood, etc, AND may get a more favorable seniority merge as under ALPA rules.

 

[Caveman]

I regularly fly with Captains that are retired military, usually O-5, and once even an O-6. They are mostly fighter guys. Lots of masters degrees. They are all WELL qualified to fly for DAL or ANY other major. Why don't they? They were unfortunate to be born in the wrong year. You see, when they all retired from the military around 90-91 there wasn't anybody hiring. They took the only jobs that were available at the time and that was flying a Saab or a Metro for Comair. By the time hiring resumed they were 50+ and had pretty good seniority where they were. They are flying state of the art equipment and making around $100K a year. Why would they give that up to sit reserve in a 72? You guys that demonize the senior guys at airlines like ASA/ Comair don't have a freaking clue of what you are talking about. Just like any airline, we have a few, very few, nut cases. 99% percent of the Captains I've flown with were extremely professional, extraordinarily competent, and **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** fine human beings. Anybody that disparages these folks is, at best, ill-informed and, at worst, an idiot.

 

[E120ASA]

Well Said...