"The New ATA"

[Ty Webb]

Obviously, a merger with AWA would be better for the ATA pilots than the AAI deal. I, personally, am hoping that whatever is best for the ATA pilots is the final deal that gets done; I think most of us at AirTran can sympathize with the ATA pilots' situation.

 

[-9Capt]

I agree with Ty.

I hope the ATA gets a deal that protects the pilots jobs. We (AirTran) have planes coming next year anyway, if not MDW then they'll put them somewhere else (DFW?).

 

[Tristar]

To add my 1/50 of a dollar:

Those I've spoken with don't expect the moon in an ATA/AWA deal, but they are at least interested in taking us with the deal. No one else has given any indication that they would do so. Hence, everyone I've spoken with her is pulling for the AWA option (self included). Actually, I'm pulling for FedEx to acquire us and staple us at the top of their list (hey, a guy can dream, right?).

I'll edit this and agree with what MT2 said below - there are ways (if those involved are interested in seeking them out) of looking out for the interests of all involved, so that (on the whole) everyone benefits in the long run.

 

[mt2]

OK, I'll be man enough to admit I expect more than a staple job with an AWA deal. Hey, they're talking about a no cash deal here. One could reasonably foresee some seat protection and fencing but perhaps not a straight DOH seniority deal. And, of course, any list deal would have to recognize AWA having the upper hand (like granting upgrades into on order Airbii to AWA crews only) for a specified time frame. But eventually a mutually beneficial deal would be best for the Company and the pilots in the short- and long-terms as animosity can tear a company and its pilots apart.

All that said, most ATA crews would prefer an AWA deal b/c they feel the AWA pilots would treat us the most fairly.

 

[Ty Webb]

All that said, most ATA crews would prefer an AWA deal b/c they feel the AWA pilots would treat us the most fairly.

That statement is not only unfair to the AirTran crews, it also displays a lack of understanding on your behalf.

AWA is talking merger. That means they take your assets, they take your debt. Their company is calling it a merger, which means their management intends to assume the ATA employees.

If AirTran buys some gates and slots, although it may seem like the same thing to you, the difference here is that management is not calling this a merger, and they are not assuming employees automatically. Obviously, if the pilots aren't coming with it, there isn't a basis to talk integration, is there?

I understand that emotions are running high, but to say that one pilot group would "treat you better" at this stage of the game is pure speculation, and is inherently insulting to the AirTran pilots. If you want to be accurate, say you believe "the AWA offer may treat us more fairly".

Good luck to all of you, and I mean that, but please don't assume that one pilot group is more benevolent than the other, on pure speculation. The AWA deal will probably treat the ATA pilots more fairly, but no one knows for sure what AWA's offer will be yet.

 

[Pickle]

Well, Ty, most of the AWA people posting here have said that they would welcome us and that dome sort of integration would be beneficial and could somehow be done fairly, with it being a little more fair to the AWA pilot group, of course.

Most of the Air Tran people on here have said that they can't wait for the takeover so they can upgrade to the left seat and that it is not a merger so the ATA group should be happy to get the preferential interviews being suggested. Oh, yeah, and only if we happen to live in the Chicago city limits can we get a preferential interview. That takes care of about, oh maybe 5 people.

Merger, acquisition, sell off, whatever. Like it has been said here before, it remains to be seen if the transfer of ROUTES alone is enough to trigger our fragmentation clause.

I see you recently upgraded to the left seat of the 737. I hope your tenure in the left seat is longer than mine has been.

 

[Ty Webb]

I haven't seen anyone on this board from AirTran speculating how the deal would benefit them- not one person. I don't need it . . . none of our people need it, and most of us have been kicked in the chops by one carrier or another and know better.

My only point is that the way the two companies are describing it, the Airtran pilot group has little input into what happens to the ATA guys. You may have a very valid gripe with ATA, but I don;t think you have a valid gripe with any AirTran pilots right now, we're not writing this deal.

As I said, and a few other Airtran guys have said here, hey, whatever works better for you guys . . . we really don't need this deal. If AWA does it, more power to you.

Good luck, and I mean that sincerely.

 

[FarginDooshbahg]

Well, Ty, most of the AWA people posting here have said that they would welcome us and that dome sort of integration would be beneficial and could somehow be done fairly

Most of the Air Tran people on here have said that they can't wait for the takeover so they can upgrade to the left seat

Merger, acquisition, sell off, whatever. Like it has been said here before, it remains to be seen if the transfer of ROUTES alone is enough to trigger our fragmentation clause.

"Most" of the Air Tran and AWA pilots that post here (all 5 of them) definitely speak for the entire masses of both pilot groups. I guess "ATA737Capt" speaks for YOUR entire group. Get the picture? Probably not, if you post some drivel like what you posted above.

Oh and BTW, as has been REPEATEDLY stated, your "fragmentation clause" means absolutely nothing in bankruptcy. It also, in all liklihood, means about as much as the dozen or so "fragmentation clauses" of the airlines that have gone before you and been swallowed by another carrier. NONE of those were worth the paper they were written on, when all was said and done. But I suppose yours will be different. I guess you can continue to believe that until proven otherwise. My money is on the "otherwise", based on every single case that has gone before. I can't think of ANY "acquired" airline's pilot group that was happy with the scraps that they were thrown in the interest of "fairness". Everyone will talk a great game until it comes time to cut the nuts. Then they will look out for themselves, and themselves only. Just the same as you would, if the tables were turned. Of course, you might state differently...until the twine was tightly wrapped around your sack and the knife was ready.

 

[Pickle]

Fargin Dooshbahg, the frag clause IS worth plenty, even though we are in CH.11. It becomes worthless if the judge deems it so. That has not happened yet, therefore it is still valid.

Also, ATA737CAPT does not speak for our entire group. But please re-read my previous post, I never said that anyone speaks for any group. I said "most of the (AWA/Air Tran) people posting here". That in no way constitues a group representation.

FD, what is with the hostility?? And don't give me the "I am tired of hearing this crap" crap. From what I seem to recall from your postings you don't have a dog in this fight anyway. And the twine IS tightly wrapped around my sack.

 

[Pickle]

Ty: There have been posts stating how a quicker upgrade may occur due to this , but it was not gloating. I was not trying to imply that it was gloating. And those comments are greatly in the minority. But you are pretty much correct.

I don't think I have been griping at the Air Tran pilot group, just the deal in general.

As far as FarginDooshbagh goes, I don't know what his deal is.

 

[Steeler Fan]

Most of the Air Tran people on here have said that they can't wait for the takeover so they can upgrade to the left seat and that it is not a merger so the ATA group should be happy to get the preferential interviews being suggested.

I just talked to a 717 F/O friend of mine. We both said that this really stinks for the ATA guys. He was former TWA, and I was former US Airways, and we both are very grateful to have jobs. We are also both VERY sympathetic to the uncertainty of your situation. I've also made it a point to tell every AirTran employee I know that I have lots of respect for ATA pilots...you are really a bunch of good guys.

This INDUSTRY is crazy. Maybe I'll win the next powerball. The odds of winning that seem better than the odds of not getting furloughed!

 

[Jim Smyth]

I worked for the orginal Midway Airlines from 1986 to 1991 and went through this same roller coaster ride in the early 90's that ATA is going through right now. It sucks the big one to say the least and in the end Management was only in it to save there own ass! I held out with the hope that someone would relaize Midway Airlines assets that we had and would buy the airline in one piece possibly saving me some type of senority etc. I delayed sending out resumes and applications. In the end our assets or lack there of were alot cheaper to obtain when we were liquidated. I am only going by experiance and unfortuneatly ATA seems to be heading down the same road at the same airport with multiple bidders as the orginal Midway Airlines did. I wish the ATA guys and gals the best for sure but if I can give you any advice from my past is to "NOT" wait until suddenly the rug is pulled out from under your feet. I know the industry is in the toilet right now but I wouldnt wait a minute longer than I had to, to start getting your resumes/applications out. I would start the rebuilding process right now and network with any prior airline friends you have. If there is a merger type arangement that would be great for all concerned. If all else fails and your current job is lost you will have a head start on your competition. If you get offered a job elsewhere in the interm, then thats when you have to make the decision. I was out of flying for 6 months and worked various dead end jobs until I got back into the cockpit. Not bad but it could have been better if I was more aggresive before the lights where turned off and I was standing there with no income, a house, 2 kids and a wife!

 

[TWA Dude]

Fargin Dooshbahg, the frag clause IS worth plenty, even though we are in CH.11. It becomes worthless if the judge deems it so. That has not happened yet, therefore it is still valid.

Just in case you didn't know what happened to the TWA pilots' successorship clauses, we were told to eliminate it otherwise the judge would abdicate our entire contract. Thus we made the decision we were coerced into doing and eliminated the clauses. Subsequently certain AA pilots liked to say that those TWA guys did it to ensure the sale went through. To the victors go the spoils...

I have very little influence being a probationary pilot at AWA but I have spoken out and shall continue speaking to my colleagues to put away their staple guns. I sense it'll be an uphill battle. Merger, acquisition, career expectations; thems are fighting words that have been used against me that I shan't use against anybody else. Again, good luck guys.

 

[CaptSeth]

I have spoken out and shall continue speaking to my colleagues to put away their staple guns.

That's very kind and understanding of you, probably because you've already had to live the nightmare yourself. The others, well, I hope they can be persuaded of the value of cohesiveness and unity. It wasn't too long ago that the AWA pilots were walking around in contract negotiations saying "ATA or NO WAY!" Perhaps having some of us on the property wouldn't be such a terrible thing.

I am actually not that concerned about the outcome of a deal with AWA, I think in the long run it will work out OK. The Airtran deal, on the other hand, is a bloodbath. And the resulting shell of a company that will be left is of questionable economic value.

 

[xanderman]

Expect!?

OK, I'll be man enough to admit I expect more than a staple job with an AWA deal. Hey, they're talking about a no cash deal here.
.

While I can "understand" your position it still does not make it right. Yes it's true, if there is an AWA/ATA deal, you'll most likely get more than a staple job. But to say that you expect it is a whole different matter. It may be a no cash offer but don't forget sir your company is failing. This is not a merger during good times. If you were homeless and someone took you in would you live in the house like it was yours all along? Or would show some respect and treat the host family and their home as though it was a great blessing to you. You are NOT owed anything. Nor are we. But an attitude like that will piss a lot of people off.

 

[-9Capt]

[ It may be a no cash offer but don't forget sir your company is failing. This is not a merger during good times. If you were homeless and someone took you in would you live in the house like it was yours all along? Or would show some respect and treat the host family and their home as though it was a great blessing to you. You are NOT owed anything. Nor are we. But an attitude like that will piss a lot of people off.[/QUOTE]

Good analogy.

 

[capt. megadeth]

I would rather be stapled to the bottom at a AWA than have to interview for a position at C8....

Nice....too good to fly a Saab? I could just see your attitude if you did stoop low enough....."I have 8000 hours......I have so much experience". C8 is better off without people like that.

 

[pilotyip]

Once upon a time

Once upon a time there was a part of the De-Reg act that stated if any existing airline in 1978 failed due to De-Reg and the airplanes were acquired by another company the pilot would be protected. The pilots would flow to the new owner with the airplane. EAL failed in 1991, the airplanes went to AAL and NWA (I believe) but the unions at both airlines took it to court to ensure the pilots did not flow with the airplanes. Correct me if I am wrong, it has been awhile.

 

[jettypeguy]

Nice....too good to fly a Saab? I could just see your attitude if you did stoop low enough....."I have 8000 hours......I have so much experience". C8 is better off without people like that.

no dumbass, maybe if you read the thread and understood what we are talking about, which is either an Airtran Deal which includes preferential interviews at C8 as they acquire regional jets, or a possible buy-out by AWA with staple to their pilot list. Just stating I would perfer the AWA deal...go back to hanger 18 and bang your head some more.....

 

[capt. megadeth]

Why don't YOU learn how to spell.....dumbass. I was in Hangar 18 last night banging my head.

no dumass, maybe if you read the thread and understood what we are talking about, which is either an Airtran Deal which includes preferential interviews at C8 as they acquire regional jets, or a possible buy-out by AWA with staple to their pilot list. Just stating I would perfer the AWA deal...go back to hanger 18 and bang your head some more.....