"The New ATA"

[ATA717Pilot]

Recently released info re: our restructuring plans under the AAI-ATA deal:

COMPANY BRIEFING

While much of the Company's presentation was confidential, Management outlined its proposed fleet restructuring assuming the bankruptcy court approves the AirTran transaction. Details of the AirTran deal include:

* ATA would initially operate 12 737-800s for AirTran under a wet lease with staggered retirements through June 2005.
* ATA would continue to operate the Midway station for AirTran under a phase-out schedule to be determined.
* ATA would handle AirTran at other stations and the two airlines would have a codeshare agreement
* Preferential interviews would be offered.

THE NEW ATA

As outlined by management, the new ATA would be approximately half the size of the current airline, but the Company hopes it would still generate two-thirds of the current revenue. While the Company has until the end of January to develop its business plan, the current thinking, subject to change, is this:

* A fleet of 32-33 aircraft: 3 757-300s, 14 757-200s, 11 737-800s and 4-5 L-1011s.
* 4-5 L-1011s and 6 757-200s would be dedicated to military charter operations.
* Hawaiian operations would be expanded using 8 757-200 aircraft.
* Indianapolis operations would be expanded using 8 737-800 aircraft.
* Feeder operations would be expanded, with Chicago Express operating 6 Saab 340s and 15 new 50- to 70-seat regional jets. The Company is also exploring possibilities with other regional jet entities.
* Furloughs: 400-500 cockpit crewmembers would be retained, with 600-700 crewmembers being furloughed.
* 900-950 flight attendants would be retained, with 900-950 being furloughed.
* Furloughs would begin in January, and continue over a six-month period.
* The Company would agree to offer preferential interviews to furloughed flight crew members who would want to move to the regional jet.

CONCESSIONARY REQUEST

Following the financial briefing, the Company presented to the Negotiating Committee a concessionary proposal totaling $35 million. The concessions would come in five areas, including benefits and insurance; scheduling; operating efficiency; administrative savings; and compensation and expenses.

 

[Pickle]

This blows. I will be furloughed and then maybe the company, the company for which I have been working for over 5 years, the company that will be furloughing me, will give me a preferential interview to fly an RJ. A pref interview? Heck, that is not anything more than Air Tran is offering. Well, except that I don't have to live in Chicago to get the pref interview from my current employer.

Oh, oh, I know. The pref interviews with the "new" ATA will only be offered to those who live in Indy.

As far as concessions go.... The remaining 400-500 can concede away all they want. Until then, I say we politely listen to what they have to say and then politely tell them "No".

 

[JumpJetter]

THE NEW ATA
...with 900-950 being furloughed.
* Furloughs would begin in January, and continue over a six-month period.
...

...dang....this industry sucks....

 

[Xdriver]

Yes it does suck!

 

[ATA73Pilot]

* The Company would agree to offer preferential interviews to furloughed flight crew members who would want to move to the regional jet.

I can just see it now...

Interviewer: I can see from your application and resume that you have 7 years experience in both domestic and international operations for ATA. Type rated International Relief Officer in the 757 and experience in the 737-800.

Fantastic!

Now tell me in your own words why we should hire you to work at C8?

Me: Uhhhh.......hmmm.......could you please repeat the question?

 

[pilotyip]

What is the other option to this form of sucking?

 

[jettypeguy]

...dang....this industry sucks....

Jumpjetter that 900-950 is FA's, the pilot numbers are 400-500..but yeah it still sucks....

 

[flynlow]

Jumpjetter that 900-950 is FA's, the pilot numbers are 400-500..but yeah it still sucks....

Actualy the pilot furlough numbers are 600-700 but what are few hundred more pilots on the street.

 

[vclean]

.
* Feeder operations would be expanded, with Chicago Express operating 6 Saab 340s and 15 new 50- to 70-seat regional jets. The Company is also exploring possibilities with other regional jet entities.

Chicago Express operates 17 Saabs. If these numbers are accurate, it only represents an increase of 4 aircraft. Not a lot of opportunities for several hundred furloughs. I imagine if an ATA pilot was hired at C8 as a f/o, they would start in the Saab, as the RJs would probaby be fairly senior.

 

[Cactus73]

I wouldn't get too worried yet.

ATA management wants the AAI deal because they want the cash and they don't want to give up their airline to someone else. Some of it may be ego driven, not what is best for the employees.

It seems likely AWA will make an offer for all of ATA by the December 10 deadline. For ATA management it is a bad deal. They don't get any cash and most of them lose their jobs. Their airline also goes away.

If I were an ATA pilot I would be hoping for an AWA deal. This board seems to be focused on SWA, jetblue, and Air Train giving you the saving grace for your jobs, but you are probably best off with AWA.

Now, as an AWA pilot I'm worried about the deal from a seniority position, but I'm excited about it for AWA's long term future.

 

[Pickle]

Cactus73:

This board notwithstanding, public (read ATA pilot group) opinion is very much in AWAs favor. This message board is such a miniscule sampling; it is, as you know, in no way any kind of legitimate cross section of the airline industry.

At any rate, on our union website, and on the line, in the crew room, etc etc etc the majority are pulling for AWA to come in and take the company.

 

[TWA Dude]

What horrible, rotten news! Bad enough being furloughed but to be getting it a second time for many is just depressing.

I still have many doubts that any AWA/ATA thing will go through but if only to protect all our jobs I'm in favor of it. Good luck, my friends.

 

[propjob27]

Cactus:

I'll second what Pickle said (not that it needs it). In general, the only deal that ATA pilots want to go through is the America West deal.

 

[cosmotheassman]

Yeah this reinforces my thoughts on NEVER going to the airlines. I'm sorry for you guys at ATA. I guess the market will once again be flooded. At least some of you might be able to get on at UPS or SWA??? Good luck guys.

 

[FarginDooshbahg]

In general, the only deal that ATA pilots want to go through is the America West deal.

Why? Because you all are betting (clinging to a hope, more likely) that a "deal' with AWA will allow you to keep your seniority and seamlessly be integrated into their list by DOH?

Dream on, "Brothers". AWA pilots will absolutely, POSITIVELY do what is best for them, and a message from their MEC chairman said as much. I can't say that I blame them. If I were an AWA pilot, I would want my MEC looking out for me instead of some failing company's pilot group.

While I most definitely sympathize with the ATA pilots and hope they come out of this with something positve, I really don't see a deal with ANY carrier that will protect everything that you have worked at ATA to achieve. That boat is sinking, and to expect another company to come in and save the day, especially at the expense of even one of their pilots, is unrealistic to say the least, and simply isn't going to happen. No matter how hard you wish and hope and believe that it is.

 

[TWA Dude]

Because you all are betting (clinging to a hope, more likely) that a "deal' with AWA will allow you to keep your seniority and seamlessly be integrated into their list by DOH?

Well, considering that an AWA offer is the only one that will include pilots I can understand them being in favor of it. Priority One: save job. Priority Two: save seniority. They have their priorities straight.

 

[xanderman]

Why? Because you all are betting (clinging to a hope, more likely) that a "deal' with AWA will allow you to keep your seniority and seamlessly be integrated into their list by DOH?

Dream on, "Brothers". AWA pilots will absolutely, POSITIVELY do what is best for them, and a message from their MEC chairman said as much. I can't say that I blame them. If I were an AWA pilot, I would want my MEC looking out for me instead of some failing company's pilot group.

While I most definitely sympathize with the ATA pilots and hope they come out of this with something positve, I really don't see a deal with ANY carrier that will protect everything that you have worked at ATA to achieve. That boat is sinking, and to expect another company to come in and save the day, especially at the expense of even one of their pilots, is unrealistic to say the least, and simply isn't going to happen. No matter how hard you wish and hope and believe that it is.

That's a pretty negative spin on it. Yes you are right the AWA MEC will look out for AWA pilots. As they should! But I believe the responses from the ATA guys were to point out that it is the best possible scenario. Yes it sucks for them but it is better than a preferential interview or the street. Just my opinion. I sincerely hope that the ATA folks get the best possible outcome no matter what that may be...
Andy

 

[jettypeguy]

I would rather be stapled to the bottom at a AWA than have to interview for a position at C8....

 

[flyhard]

Why? Because you all are betting (clinging to a hope, more likely) that a "deal' with AWA will allow you to keep your seniority and seamlessly be integrated into their list by DOH?

Dream on, "Brothers". AWA pilots will absolutely, POSITIVELY do what is best for them, and a message from their MEC chairman said as much. I can't say that I blame them. If I were an AWA pilot, I would want my MEC looking out for me instead of some failing company's pilot group.

While I most definitely sympathize with the ATA pilots and hope they come out of this with something positve, I really don't see a deal with ANY carrier that will protect everything that you have worked at ATA to achieve. That boat is sinking, and to expect another company to come in and save the day, especially at the expense of even one of their pilots, is unrealistic to say the least, and simply isn't going to happen. No matter how hard you wish and hope and believe that it is.

Uh I don't think I have read any ATA pilot say anything about wanting a seamless DOH integration. You seem to be some crusty old fart that has a bad attitude about everything you talk about. The only thing that our pilot group wants is to be treated with respect. Hopefully you will not bring your current company down with your "realistic" look on things fargindooshbag.

 

[Pickle]

Yes, FarginDooshbahg, the AWA pilot group will do what is best for them. However, they also have said that they are looking at an integration of some sorts, as opposed to "preferential interviews".

We are not clinging to anything. We are simply being realistic.

 

[Ty Webb]

Obviously, a merger with AWA would be better for the ATA pilots than the AAI deal. I, personally, am hoping that whatever is best for the ATA pilots is the final deal that gets done; I think most of us at AirTran can sympathize with the ATA pilots' situation.

 

[-9Capt]

I agree with Ty.

I hope the ATA gets a deal that protects the pilots jobs. We (AirTran) have planes coming next year anyway, if not MDW then they'll put them somewhere else (DFW?).

 

[Tristar]

To add my 1/50 of a dollar:

Those I've spoken with don't expect the moon in an ATA/AWA deal, but they are at least interested in taking us with the deal. No one else has given any indication that they would do so. Hence, everyone I've spoken with her is pulling for the AWA option (self included). Actually, I'm pulling for FedEx to acquire us and staple us at the top of their list (hey, a guy can dream, right?).

I'll edit this and agree with what MT2 said below - there are ways (if those involved are interested in seeking them out) of looking out for the interests of all involved, so that (on the whole) everyone benefits in the long run.

 

[mt2]

OK, I'll be man enough to admit I expect more than a staple job with an AWA deal. Hey, they're talking about a no cash deal here. One could reasonably foresee some seat protection and fencing but perhaps not a straight DOH seniority deal. And, of course, any list deal would have to recognize AWA having the upper hand (like granting upgrades into on order Airbii to AWA crews only) for a specified time frame. But eventually a mutually beneficial deal would be best for the Company and the pilots in the short- and long-terms as animosity can tear a company and its pilots apart.

All that said, most ATA crews would prefer an AWA deal b/c they feel the AWA pilots would treat us the most fairly.

 

[Ty Webb]

All that said, most ATA crews would prefer an AWA deal b/c they feel the AWA pilots would treat us the most fairly.

That statement is not only unfair to the AirTran crews, it also displays a lack of understanding on your behalf.

AWA is talking merger. That means they take your assets, they take your debt. Their company is calling it a merger, which means their management intends to assume the ATA employees.

If AirTran buys some gates and slots, although it may seem like the same thing to you, the difference here is that management is not calling this a merger, and they are not assuming employees automatically. Obviously, if the pilots aren't coming with it, there isn't a basis to talk integration, is there?

I understand that emotions are running high, but to say that one pilot group would "treat you better" at this stage of the game is pure speculation, and is inherently insulting to the AirTran pilots. If you want to be accurate, say you believe "the AWA offer may treat us more fairly".

Good luck to all of you, and I mean that, but please don't assume that one pilot group is more benevolent than the other, on pure speculation. The AWA deal will probably treat the ATA pilots more fairly, but no one knows for sure what AWA's offer will be yet.

 

[Pickle]

Well, Ty, most of the AWA people posting here have said that they would welcome us and that dome sort of integration would be beneficial and could somehow be done fairly, with it being a little more fair to the AWA pilot group, of course.

Most of the Air Tran people on here have said that they can't wait for the takeover so they can upgrade to the left seat and that it is not a merger so the ATA group should be happy to get the preferential interviews being suggested. Oh, yeah, and only if we happen to live in the Chicago city limits can we get a preferential interview. That takes care of about, oh maybe 5 people.

Merger, acquisition, sell off, whatever. Like it has been said here before, it remains to be seen if the transfer of ROUTES alone is enough to trigger our fragmentation clause.

I see you recently upgraded to the left seat of the 737. I hope your tenure in the left seat is longer than mine has been.

 

[Ty Webb]

I haven't seen anyone on this board from AirTran speculating how the deal would benefit them- not one person. I don't need it . . . none of our people need it, and most of us have been kicked in the chops by one carrier or another and know better.

My only point is that the way the two companies are describing it, the Airtran pilot group has little input into what happens to the ATA guys. You may have a very valid gripe with ATA, but I don;t think you have a valid gripe with any AirTran pilots right now, we're not writing this deal.

As I said, and a few other Airtran guys have said here, hey, whatever works better for you guys . . . we really don't need this deal. If AWA does it, more power to you.

Good luck, and I mean that sincerely.

 

[FarginDooshbahg]

Well, Ty, most of the AWA people posting here have said that they would welcome us and that dome sort of integration would be beneficial and could somehow be done fairly

Most of the Air Tran people on here have said that they can't wait for the takeover so they can upgrade to the left seat

Merger, acquisition, sell off, whatever. Like it has been said here before, it remains to be seen if the transfer of ROUTES alone is enough to trigger our fragmentation clause.

"Most" of the Air Tran and AWA pilots that post here (all 5 of them) definitely speak for the entire masses of both pilot groups. I guess "ATA737Capt" speaks for YOUR entire group. Get the picture? Probably not, if you post some drivel like what you posted above.

Oh and BTW, as has been REPEATEDLY stated, your "fragmentation clause" means absolutely nothing in bankruptcy. It also, in all liklihood, means about as much as the dozen or so "fragmentation clauses" of the airlines that have gone before you and been swallowed by another carrier. NONE of those were worth the paper they were written on, when all was said and done. But I suppose yours will be different. I guess you can continue to believe that until proven otherwise. My money is on the "otherwise", based on every single case that has gone before. I can't think of ANY "acquired" airline's pilot group that was happy with the scraps that they were thrown in the interest of "fairness". Everyone will talk a great game until it comes time to cut the nuts. Then they will look out for themselves, and themselves only. Just the same as you would, if the tables were turned. Of course, you might state differently...until the twine was tightly wrapped around your sack and the knife was ready.

 

[Pickle]

Fargin Dooshbahg, the frag clause IS worth plenty, even though we are in CH.11. It becomes worthless if the judge deems it so. That has not happened yet, therefore it is still valid.

Also, ATA737CAPT does not speak for our entire group. But please re-read my previous post, I never said that anyone speaks for any group. I said "most of the (AWA/Air Tran) people posting here". That in no way constitues a group representation.

FD, what is with the hostility?? And don't give me the "I am tired of hearing this crap" crap. From what I seem to recall from your postings you don't have a dog in this fight anyway. And the twine IS tightly wrapped around my sack.

 

[Pickle]

Ty: There have been posts stating how a quicker upgrade may occur due to this , but it was not gloating. I was not trying to imply that it was gloating. And those comments are greatly in the minority. But you are pretty much correct.

I don't think I have been griping at the Air Tran pilot group, just the deal in general.

As far as FarginDooshbagh goes, I don't know what his deal is.