The Bashing Begins

[Browntothebone]

This does not surprise me. The last three regional crashes (Pinnacle, Comair, and Colgan) have all had a former Gulfstream International Airlines' pilot in one of the seats. These companies decided to hire pilots with lower qualifications and sacrifice safety rather than raise compensation. Now they act surprised when under-qualified pilots make serious mistakes and kill innocent people. Where do you think the naked MDT pilot worked before Pinnacle? Gulfstream Airlines. This is the type of pilot that has been coming out of that scab outfit for years. The FAA should have shut it down a long time ago. What kind of airline puts car parts on its airplanes? Rant over. I just have to accept that any moron with a few bucks can fly an airline these days. Not safely, but they can fly an airliner.

Thats just a coincidince. All the majors have Gulfsteam graduates flying for them.

 

[SEVEN]

This does not surprise me. The last three regional crashes (Pinnacle, Comair, and Colgan) have all had a former Gulfstream International Airlines' pilot in one of the seats. These companies decided to hire pilots with lower qualifications and sacrifice safety rather than raise compensation. Now they act surprised when under-qualified pilots make serious mistakes and kill innocent people. Where do you think the naked MDT pilot worked before Pinnacle? Gulfstream Airlines. This is the type of pilot that has been coming out of that scab outfit for years. The FAA should have shut it down a long time ago. What kind of airline puts car parts on its airplanes? Rant over. I just have to accept that any moron with a few bucks can fly an airline these days. Not safely, but they can fly an airliner.

You took the words right out of my mouth. I've been preaching this for some time now. Many people died in that Colgan crash because a pilot allowed and airplane to get too slow and fall out of the sky with an inapropriate stall recovery technique. This is very disturbing when a perfectly good airplane with all of those innocent people crashes from something so basic. An "experienced" airline captain allows the airplane to slow to the point of stall. This is Flying 101.
Unfortunetly, the Gulfstream Academy pilot group are tainting our regional airline industry. These crashes should not be a surprise when you take a good look at the pilot's training and background.
Sadly, I don't think much will change.

 

[skiandsurf]

Unfortunately I think this accident shows that recent up and coming pilots are not getting "seasoned" enough. Years ago you really had to pay your dues if you wanted to make it even to a good regional flying turboprops. Normally someone would spend years instructing then they maybe would move on to charter, banner towing, freight, etc. After acummulating around 3000 hours you would be competitive for a good regional. Then it might be another few years before you upgraded. What you saw in the last few years was new pilots instructing a bit and then heading straight to the right seat of a big complex turboprop or regional jet. I have lost count of how many FOs I have flown with in the last few years that have that type of background. A lot of them are good pilots and can handle the airplane fine but frankly there are times when it is painfully obvious that they are not seasoned pilots. There is no substitute for good ole fashioned hours and experience. I don't care what high priced school you went to. I agree that 5 failures is a lot considering the length of this captain's career. I would argue that perhaps his failures weren't always necessarily due to incompetence, but rather simply taking on more than he should of.

Agree with all of this.

When I came up (back in the day), all regionals required 2500TT and 200MT. Instructed for 3 years. Hired into a Jetstream 31. FO for 3 yrs. I didnt fly my first jet until I had 9000 hours.

Sure the times have changed, but experience is too important.

As far as failures go, I have heard of lots of BS failures.....not making a required (CRJ) FMA call (LOC), (A320)...Q... "what does the cabin oxygen deploy button do? " A..." drops the masks....you know the rubber jungle"...failed....the button "sends a signal to deploy the masks".

My point is...anyone can fail. These are stories I have heard of from good guys. But for 1 guy to have 5 failures in his first 3000hrs...thats probably not a good sign.

From day 1 of this crash, I compared it with the ACA J41 in CMH. Those pilots were "weak". Captain had problems in training, and the FO was very low time.

Give me a 10,000 hr guy with a couple of failures, over a 3000 hr guy with straight A's.

 

[hangar7guy]

Two or more sides to every story

And why did he fail? Piloting skills? Maybe not.

A lot of Capt. checkrides are flunked these days for "crew management" issues. Perhaps he had a weak F/O that sim day and they couldn't get stuff done. Don't automatically assume a failed airline checkride is due to lack of stick and rudder skills.

Yes, things happen that don't reflect flying skills. In fact, they have happened to me.

When I worked for an FBO with a 135 operation, I kept bugging the owner for more charter time. I had done plenty of instructing in their flight school and wanted to move up. 'Trouble was, said owner (who was also the Chief Pilot & examiner) had a couple of friends whose kids wanted charter time too, so in order to silence me he gave me an impossible ILS approach involving a 45 vector to final AT the marker -- with a tailwind (I kid you not) and then flunked me when I blew through final. I could see what was happening, but he insisted on working the radio and wouldn't allow me to ask to be revectored. It was the checkride from hell.

Long story made short: I ended up back in the flight school, instructing, and the rich kids got the charter jobs. How convenient.

I'm not saying that the Flight 3407 captain got a raw deal like this, but failures can be used as a personnel management tool by a vindictive boss. So don't be too quick to assume that someone who flunks a ride is incompetent.

 

[Browntothebone]

Yes, things happen that don't reflect flying skills. In fact, they have happened to me.

When I worked for an FBO with a 135 operation, I kept bugging the owner for more charter time. I had done plenty of instructing in their flight school and wanted to move up. 'Trouble was, said owner (who was also the Chief Pilot & examiner) had a couple of friends whose kids wanted charter time too, so in order to silence me he gave me an impossible ILS approach involving a 45 vector to final AT the marker -- with a tailwind (I kid you not) and then flunked me when I blew through final. I could see what was happening, but he insisted on working the radio and wouldn't allow me to ask to be revectored. It was the checkride from hell.

Long story made short: I ended up back in the flight school, instructing, and the rich kids got the charter jobs. How convenient.

I'm not saying that the Flight 3407 captain got a raw deal like this, but failures can be used as a personnel management tool by a vindictive boss. So don't be too quick to assume that someone who flunks a ride is incompetent.

Want some cheese to go with your whine?

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

I don't care which way you cut it, 5 failures shows a trend. It's just denial and accepting mediocrity to say anything otherwise.

Another interesting side fact, the FO's that I flew with at 9E that were the farthest behind the airplane were the middle-aged ex-gulfstream FOs that had done a career change. The learning curve is just too slow at that age without years of experience to fall back on. They typically made up for their lack of ability with attitude and desire to learn, but that doesn't mean they belong there and especially did not have adequate command capability until many more hours than their peers.

Of course there were a few exceptions (I'm thinking of a couple as I type this), but the overall trend was too great to not notice.

 

[motch]

Please don't forget that there were TWO pilots on that Flight Deck... either one could and should have prevented that accident IF it wasn't a system or weather issue.

I expect tomorrows briefing to be an eye opener. It will be VERY interesting to see how the media reacts, and how ALPA National handles the possible backlash.

Accidents don't happen for one mistake. It's takes a chain of events to lead up to a crash and deaths...
There were probably many places where this accident could have been prevented.

Basic Flight School
Advanced Flight Training
Hiring
Training at the airline in Question
Crew Compliment
Scheduling
Fatigue
Experience
Professionalism

etc...

We as an industry need to learn from this so it doesn't happen again.
Keep in mind, ANY of US could have been apassenger or jumpseater on that flight or have had family on that flight~

Always
Motch

 

[ehaecker]

No, the fact that you have managed to fly all grandad's planes (Pitts, Stearman, Blah, and Blah, and Blah) on the weekend makes you a Yeager/Hoover. (BTW-it has been a while since I have seen a jet with a tailwheel-so who the hell cares?)

The fact that you have identified yourself as an "RJ FO" makes you a Neil Armstrong/Buzz Aldrin.

The fact that you show up to work with spikey hair, an I-Pod and little blinking wheels on your roll-a-board just makes you a tool.....

-Go back to "nick-at-nite" and leave your daddy's computer alone!

How grown up of you! Did you come up with that on your own?

I'm sure everybody appreciates your contribution to the discussion.

Maybe you should just go back to killing kittens in your step-mom's basement and leave the discussion to the real pilots since you have nothing productive to add.

 

[skiandsurf]

Please don't forget that there were TWO pilots on that Flight Deck... either one could and should have prevented that accident IF it wasn't a system or weather issue.

I expect tomorrows briefing to be an eye opener. It will be VERY interesting to see how the media reacts, and how ALPA National handles the possible backlash.

Accidents don't happen for one mistake. It's takes a chain of events to lead up to a crash and deaths...
There were probably many places where this accident could have been prevented.

Basic Flight School
Advanced Flight Training
Hiring
Training at the airline in Question
Crew Compliment
Scheduling
Fatigue
Experience
Professionalism

etc...

We as an industry need to learn from this so it doesn't happen again.
Keep in mind, ANY of US could have been apassenger or jumpseater on that flight or have had family on that flight~

Always
Motch

I have a feeling (this is pure guessing) that there was a lot of talking, possible argueing, going on in that cockpit. It seems that this investigation has had information given out at much faster pace.....possibly because the mistakes were so blatant on the CVR and maybe the CVRs discussions/arguements made the investigation fast and easy.

 

[Max Powers]

So you are saying it is OK to fail 5 check rides? Sure I can understand busting the CFI for 8's on or whatever, but 5 checkrides???
In this industry, we are trained to detect a chain of events (mistakes), and break that chain before it leads to an accident. I would say 5 failures is a good start to that chain...
If my opinion makes me a Yeager or Hoover, fine. We need more Yeagers and Hoovers.

Yea I'm saying it's ok to fail 5 check rides. Especially when the training is sub standard and not enough. Look if your going to hire someone a bit slower or someone with less experience you need to train them properly not cheaply.