SWAPA TA Failure and downgrades

[shearedshaft]

So which is it, $1,000 or $1,400? Your accounting principles are confusing to us lowly no votes.

Fortunately the majority thinks otherwise, welcome to democracy.

If you fly 120/month, it's $1,400. If you fly 100 per month, it's $1,000.

You "lowly no votes" are already down $1,000. In one month. Ouch.


Hey, let's do some more math. The average SWA pilot flies over 100 trips per month and there are 6,000 pilots. Figure each captain gave up a $10/trip raise, each senior FO gave up $11/trip and each junior FO gave up about $6/trip.

We just put a little under $6 million back in SWA's checking account this month, right from ours with the no vote.

Next month, we'll have donated $12 million. At that rate, I am certain SWA management is falling all over themselves to fix the little things and get that contract out for ratification.

Think this through; by turning down the TA, the whole pilot group gives up a collective amount of $6 million per month.

That is gonna show 'em. You have leverage now, baby.

 

[GuppyWN]

No retro No contract.

It's already been agreed to once. Now way it's coming off the table. You can thank me after my NO vote gets you a bigger raise.

Gup

 

[shearedshaft]

Don't you see that the company is dancing around waving streamers in the air and spontaneously breaking into folk dances because we turned this down and saved them $6,000,000 per month in pilot wages?

Why would they care if you kept voting it down? It's good for them, the money that would have gone into your pocket stays in theirs.

 

[humveedriver]

Best of luck guys. We have our penny pinchers too at AT, who brief their fellow pilot on how much the failed TA cost them per pay period and to date. If it was only about money, SWA and AT's ta's would have passed. The latest antic by our management has done alot for our unity. I think you guys probably have a ways to go, and will need some bombs dropped on your heads like we did. It sucks for everyone who is watching to see the most labor friendly airline to ever exist (and one of the best fortune 500 companies period) to go down the path they are on. I hope I am wrong and your new NC squeaks out a victory, but I think the airline landscape is too different now for these managers to back down.

 

[GuppyWN]

It sucks for everyone who is watching to see the most labor friendly airline to ever exist (and one of the best fortune 500 companies period) to go down the path they are on.

The only path we are on right now is the path to renegotiation. There is no animosity that I am aware of, we just didn't sign off on the first go.

Gup

 

[firstthird]

..There is no animosity that I am aware of, ...

Gup

well, sheared seems pretty upset that we are costing him $1000 a month. but I agree, that company-union relationship doesn´t seem to be headed off a cliff anytime soon.

 

[LocoPiloto]

You sound like a gullible newhire at an RJ operator, for f&ck sake. "Off the table?" I've got news for you: nothing is ever "off the table" in negotiations. That may be their ridiculous line at the table, but it's all posturing. They know full well that they won't get away with not paying you retro. Don't be a chump.

Ha ha.... I got tell you..it is so funny to watch you post like the big tough guy knowing your history... You are great entertainment for so many of us. Dude, you are such a poser.

Thanks...

 

[klr1395]

More with the insults. Fine, but deep in your heart, you have a sinking feeling that I'm right.

Just wait until you get a progress report from our new (well, "new" isn't right the sperm hasn't even left the vas deferens yet) NC and their fancy box-stuffer says, "SWA now maintains that times are different now than when they first negotiated the last TA, so we are making very little progress."

When that comes out, I'd like you, like a rapper, to pour out a 40 on your copy of the old TA and think, "He was right after all."

So far I've gotten insulted and asked about my background.

Nobody has touched the central issues.

No insults here, and it does not matter where any of us came from. It matters where we are now. I voted no, as all of the 'QOL' changes would have spelled a 20-25 trip reduction per month which would FAR outweigh the value of the raises/401K match in my case. Understand I speak only for myself here. I also did not understand (I am not the smartest tool in the shead) why the compnay for years had told us our productivity had been crucial to SWA's success, yet so many of the changes to ELITT, Open Time, etc... seemed bent on limiting that very same productivity. I also looked at the 'no more 2nd yr pay' for probies flying extra as our own little version of a B-scale and to me it was wrong to go along with that, after I enjoyed it so much as a newbie. I also wanted to see the reserve guarantee be per pairing or block as opposed to per month (no free reserve standing at the end of the month) as well as have it be 6.5 TFP per day to make it equitable with lineholders. That would benefit senior as well as junior guys since all the reserve lines for CA's tend to go senior (at least in MCO...). There is some validity to wondering if we have set ourselves up for a worse offer, and maybe we have... I personally do not think so because who in a business deal goes to the table with their best offer first? Ever buy a house and give your max price right away(If you have I am sorry for you and you should sue your agent for letting you)? Mgmt knew we had never turned a TA down before and were hoping and counting on the same here. I think this could be a very good thing if and only because at least it has made Gary et.al realize how out of touch they are with the pilot group, and how close they are to squandering our goodwill which believe it or not is very valuable to them (at least if you believe the memo from him sent to our company emails yesterday). I am pleased with our current contract (it is not perfect but far better than the TA) and will continue to vote no if the subsequent offers are worse for most of the seniority list. Cheers and best of luck to us all, klr

 

[scoreboardII]

Think this through; by turning down the TA, the whole pilot group gives up a collective amount of $6 million per month.

That is gonna show 'em. You have leverage now, baby.

Evidently you have never bought a car for less than asking price....

 

[Orionflyer]

klr1395

Just curious..... how was the TA going to cost you 20-25 tfp a month? Was it going to just cost you this much or every pilot? If it was going to cost every pilot that much, I estimate that we would need to hire 1000 pilots to cover the schedule (immediately clearing up the lance grandfathering).

Maybe you feel that you would have flown the same block for 20-25 trips less. How was this going to happen? Do you "clear your board" and then work FO trips for captain pay (i.e. VJA)? I don't know if this is your approach, but I'm just trying to understand the "I would've lost tons of pay" rationale.

 

[Chest Rockwell]

I also looked at the 'no more 2nd yr pay' for probies flying extra as our own little version of a B-scale and to me it was wrong to go along with that, after I enjoyed it so much as a newbie. klr

The second year pay for new hires was always intended to be an incentive for flying extra, not the give-away/pickup that it had evolved into (ask anyone involved in negotiating that aspect of our current CBA, from either side).

 

[shearedshaft]

klr1395

Just curious..... how was the TA going to cost you 20-25 tfp a month? Was it going to just cost you this much or every pilot? If it was going to cost every pilot that much, I estimate that we would need to hire 1000 pilots to cover the schedule (immediately clearing up the lance grandfathering).

Maybe you feel that you would have flown the same block for 20-25 trips less. How was this going to happen? Do you "clear your board" and then work FO trips for captain pay (i.e. VJA)? I don't know if this is your approach, but I'm just trying to understand the "I would've lost tons of pay" rationale.

I, too am curious as to the answer behind this. I kept hearing (and reading) guys saying this was some sort of huge pay cut. For lances, maybe, since they could only fly nine captain periods instead of the twelve or fourteen, but in every other case, it was actually a big pay raise, between 6 and 12%.

"I fear what I don't understand" seems to be the mantra of many of these folks, who also put out nonsense like, "This is going to cost me 25 trips per month." Sure it is, not.

Hey, haven't heard much from the company or union about getting that money in our pockets, it might be time to wave bye-bye to the compensation you thought you could both turn down and still have.

 

[MILPILOT17]

I, too am curious as to the answer behind this. I kept hearing (and reading) guys saying this was some sort of huge pay cut. For lances, maybe, since they could only fly nine captain periods instead of the twelve or fourteen, but in every other case, it was actually a big pay raise, between 6 and 12%.

"I fear what I don't understand" seems to be the mantra of many of these folks, who also put out nonsense like, "This is going to cost me 25 trips per month." Sure it is, not.

Hey, haven't heard much from the company or union about getting that money in our pockets, it might be time to wave bye-bye to the compensation you thought you could both turn down and still have.

Get over it already! It's time to move on.

 

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

I, too am curious as to the answer behind this. I kept hearing (and reading) guys saying this was some sort of huge pay cut. For lances, maybe, since they could only fly nine captain periods instead of the twelve or fourteen, but in every other case, it was actually a big pay raise, between 6 and 12%.

"I fear what I don't understand" seems to be the mantra of many of these folks, who also put out nonsense like, "This is going to cost me 25 trips per month." Sure it is, not.

Hey, haven't heard much from the company or union about getting that money in our pockets, it might be time to wave bye-bye to the compensation you thought you could both turn down and still have.

believe they are referring to limit DTC/ ellitt restrictions and weekend limitations, trading all your 3 days that pay 19.5 minimum (this month, I had 4 and a 3 day for 24 plus) for three days that pay much higher traded all mine up to pay 22 plus but if Ellitt wouldn't have had issues there was higher paying stuff in there, Saw a few that paid 26 when it first opened. Potentially you couldve traded for 3 days that paid 24 ( or higher) and that would net you 20 trips.

Weekend duty time limits on weekend and holidays could restrict you to just weekend pm trips, which generally don't pay as well.

As far as second year pay, I had a few months where half my pay was at second year (44 ph vs. 73 ph). I respect the company's right to close up loopholes (there were others) but restricting captain trips as a lance was not good.

Hope that kinda explains it!
Later,
KBB

 

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

And I agree, it's over, let's move on!
KBB

 

[shearedshaft]

Move on to what? My original point was that a lot of guys thought that they got to have a cake and eat it as well. The recent downgrades showed that no, saving the lances probably isn't going to happen, and now it looks like turning down the compensation part did exactly that: turned down compensation.

And thanks for the ELITT explanation, but I can't come up with 25 trips by trading two 19.5s for 22 paying trips--and the ELITT restrictions wouldn't have stopped that either.

I'm just keeping score:

1. Save the lances...nope
2. Turn down the raises, but still get the raises...looks like no, unless someone is hearing something I'm not hearing
3. Turn down codeshare restrictions but still restrict codeshare...jury's still out.
4. Keep ELITT the same way it was...looks like a score.

 

[StopNTSing]

I'm just keeping score:

1. Save the lances...nope

Yes, some lances may still get downgraded, but it will not happen as a result of their fellow pilots actions. No "blood on our hands." May not seem important to you, but a LOT of us put unity over $$$$. I hate to think of the divisive ramifications that would have had on our group going forward.

2. Turn down the raises, but still get the raises...looks like no, unless someone is hearing something I'm not hearing

I'm reading a letter from GK that makes it sound like he's anxious to get back to the table. Guess I missed the part about pay raises being off the table?

3. Turn down codeshare restrictions but still restrict codeshare...jury's still out.

Agreed....we'll see what we see.

4. Keep ELITT the same way it was...looks like a score.

Yes, chalk one up for the No voters. :beer:

And while we're keeping score. In the wake of a No vote we were assured by the Yes-crowd to experience:

1) Lance program shut down by FAA
Still waiting...it's been three weeks & counting and nary a peep on that front.

2) GK walking away from the table in disgust, and insisting upon starting over from scratch.
Again....his letter sure didn't sound like that to me.

3) Furloughs
Still waiting....as expected, the market will ultimately drive this, not the vote.

4) Arbitration
That one was so patently absurd, it's not even worth a "Told you so"

SS, do you see the corner you have painted yourself into? You lose either way now. If we end up eventually voting in a lesser TA, you've lost $$$ and QOL (as have we all.) If we end up with an improved TA, you'll look like the biggest chump on FI...and that would be no small accomplishment! :smash:

 

[shearedshaft]

I suspect we'll end up with a different TA, I'm not all that worried about looking like a chump if we get a United 2000 contract out of thin air. "Delta plus a dollar!"

Do you honestly think we're going to get some sort of home run when the news just mentioned United, Delta and US Air are in danger of bankruptcy by this winter?

We read Gary's letter differently. I read that the economy is debilitating the company, what did you read?

 

[firstthird]

the sky is falling the sky is falling and all you guys are costing my 1000 a month. heard from sheared on a recent post.

 

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

Move on to what? My original point was that a lot of guys thought that they got to have a cake and eat it as well. The recent downgrades showed that no, saving the lances probably isn't going to happen, and now it looks like turning down the compensation part did exactly that: turned down compensation.

And thanks for the ELITT explanation, but I can't come up with 25 trips by trading two 19.5s for 22 paying trips--and the ELITT restrictions wouldn't have stopped that either.

I'm just keeping score:

1. Save the lances...nope
2. Turn down the raises, but still get the raises...looks like no, unless someone is hearing something I'm not hearing
3. Turn down codeshare restrictions but still restrict codeshare...jury's still out.
4. Keep ELITT the same way it was...looks like a score.

The Ellitt explanation was for people who don't work here, My guess is you are senior enough to be losing 1000 a month, so you have probably been here more than six years and are still an FO, Yes, that was a fat pay raise, If you would have read the rest of my explanation I said that the potential was there that if you traded 4 19.5 trips to 4 24 trips, that would equal about 20 trips...20 trips times 4th year pay is more than $1000 dollars a month (gross)...If I was the Number one FO in Domicile, could hold exactly what I wanted and never used ELLITT I may be upset losing the money but I'm used to having to use ELLITT to make more...

Good luck,
KBB