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SWAPA TA Failure and downgrades

shearedshaft

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What I wrote before is coming true. The "no" vote looks to be a very, very expensive decision.

Now we have Gary Kelly saying we're negotiating in a new environment (whups, I thought if we vote no the company was going to give us more money? Someone should tell the CEO, I don't think he got the message).

I've read that we have chief pilots saying that retro is now off the table, and to top it off:

23 captain downgrades in a month or so.

God only knows what that is going to do to the lances (does everyone get to keep their star? No? Yes? I thought many people voted no because of the lances, there were a little over 100 that would have lost their stars, where does this 23 fit in? Maybe over the next five months, the rest will lose their star, and we'll still not get our overdue pay raises. )

I've been been hearing from more and more that we just cut off our nose to spite our face.

In September, when your 6% raise doesn't show up (sorry 7% with the 401(k) bump) you can thank your lucky stars that we paid around $12,000 per year per pilot for a no vote. Sure was nice to save those lances. Well, 3/4th of them. Until September, then it might be 1/2 of them. Until January, where it might be...zero.
 

Daddy

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The sky is falling isn't it?

Perhaps not...the pilots are the most mgmt friendly group on property...the company would be stupid to not offer a bit more to put it closer to other groups and over the top and provoke a war with the most friendly group when other groups will likely follow suit down the road. Talk about cutting off the nose to spite the face. Dont get played here...this is a very conservative group of mgrs. Chuck would start a war, but Gary is not that foolish...luckily for the shareholders Chuck is not the "decider" here. LUV stock trades at premium to other airlines even now because of the business model and the traditional harmony with labor...they will not risk screwing that up.
 

scoreboardII

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Shearshift, 1st, you know nothing. God knows, you would also if you read the current contract. Get your facts straight; nobody is downgraded, they are still "Captains" if they choose to play the Lance game.

Second, if the TA passed it would have resulted in exactly the same, the loss of 23 hard captain lines. Every lance keeps their star, you never lose it. You can thank the OLD contract for that little rule.

It's the Chicken Littles like you who spread the fear that made this last vote so close. There is nothing in a passing of or failing of a TA that keeps Kelly and crew from doing anything with regards to manning, it was and is going to happen regardless. So please get over yourself and your'e prophetic prognostications. Here's one for you, the economy will suck for another year. No matter how we vote next time around, we will still lose more manning this fall. Hows that?
 
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shearedshaft

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well, real quick, show me the part in the contract that says they get to "stay" lances.

I'll be waiting.

P.S. I'll save you time, in the past they have allowed it, but it's not contractual. Since they're so enamored with the program, I'm sure they'll just let us double the lance size. Yep.
 

radarlove

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I don't know much about the LUV world, but I can state this: you may get a different contract, but I doubt you'll get a better one.

Think about it, if they hand the keys to the cash register for a simple no vote, doesn't that telegraph a message for all future negotiations with all the other work groups?

Take a good, hard look at Airtran, voting no has got them nowhere but years down the road with no raise.

I suspect that has just happened to LUV, you guys will get a contract, but down the road and will have given up a chunk of raises.

Or not, maybe telling your MEC turn this down was the best thing in the world to do, but history shows a different view.
 

scoreboardII

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Stay Lances? The part that says upgrade or out, the part that says once upgraded you always take the PC as a Captain. That part.
Since they're so enamored with the program, I'm sure they'll just let us double the lance size. Yep.[/
Yes, they will, per a little rule in the RLA...
 
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StopNTSing

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What I wrote before is coming true. The "no" vote looks to be a very, very expensive decision.

Now we have Gary Kelly saying we're negotiating in a new environment (whups, I thought if we vote no the company was going to give us more money? Someone should tell the CEO, I don't think he got the message).

I've read that we have chief pilots saying that retro is now off the table, and to top it off:

23 captain downgrades in a month or so.

God only knows what that is going to do to the lances (does everyone get to keep their star? No? Yes? I thought many people voted no because of the lances, there were a little over 100 that would have lost their stars, where does this 23 fit in? Maybe over the next five months, the rest will lose their star, and we'll still not get our overdue pay raises. )

I've been been hearing from more and more that we just cut off our nose to spite our face.

In September, when your 6% raise doesn't show up (sorry 7% with the 401(k) bump) you can thank your lucky stars that we paid around $12,000 per year per pilot for a no vote. Sure was nice to save those lances. Well, 3/4th of them. Until September, then it might be 1/2 of them. Until January, where it might be...zero.

Friend, as someone who has fast become the loudest SWA chicken-little on FI (even out-doing Mach 80), I keep wondering where was your voice BEFORE the vote ended?
 

PropPiedmont

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Doom and gloom, Doom and gloom. Let's see how many guys take the buyout before you get your panties all up in a wad.

Wasn't the August schedule cut announced before we voted on the TA????????????????????

How could we not be overstaffed if we have cuts coming? This has nothing to do with the vote.
 

murano

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What I wrote before is coming true. The "no" vote looks to be a very, very expensive decision.

Now we have Gary Kelly saying we're negotiating in a new environment (whups, I thought if we vote no the company was going to give us more money? Someone should tell the CEO, I don't think he got the message).

I've read that we have chief pilots saying that retro is now off the table, and to top it off:

23 captain downgrades in a month or so.

God only knows what that is going to do to the lances (does everyone get to keep their star? No? Yes? I thought many people voted no because of the lances, there were a little over 100 that would have lost their stars, where does this 23 fit in? Maybe over the next five months, the rest will lose their star, and we'll still not get our overdue pay raises. )

I've been been hearing from more and more that we just cut off our nose to spite our face.

In September, when your 6% raise doesn't show up (sorry 7% with the 401(k) bump) you can thank your lucky stars that we paid around $12,000 per year per pilot for a no vote. Sure was nice to save those lances. Well, 3/4th of them. Until September, then it might be 1/2 of them. Until January, where it might be...zero.

Tom Dean, is that you?
 

PCL_128

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Sounds to me like SWA management is doing a good job of turning SWA into just another legacy carrier with poor labor relations. If they're smart they'll reverse that trend quickly before it's too late. The money that they'll end up losing as a result of a disgruntled labor group that won't go above and beyond anymore will make the money required for a fair contract pale in comparison.

Take a good, hard look at Airtran, voting no has got them nowhere but years down the road with no raise.

And you would have a very hard time finding a single pilot here that regrets that decision. That TA was a disaster and far worse than current book. The scope concessions would have erased the jobs of hundreds of AirTran pilots, and the work rule concessions would have canceled out any pay rate increases. Stick to your own pilot group. You obviously don't understand things over here.
 

PCL_128

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>>Stick to your own pilot group.<<

Says an Airtran pilot on a SWA thread.

The difference is that I'm not criticizing your pilot group for the actions that you've taken on your own through the democratic process. He is.
 

filejw

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From a old legacy guy, code share is a big no no. You are selling to future down the road especially in a 737. Don't be short sided...
 

shearedshaft

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I think you're wrong about having a "very hard time finding a single..."

It is starting to sink in that we just past the first pay period following the failed T.A.

My paycheck grossed almost exactly $1,000 less than it would have if the T.A. had ratified. So let's start a count, I've already spent a thousand bucks so far in your hopes that something much, much better is coming down the road.

I think everyone should say their seniority range, and I'll keep a running tab for you about how much you have spent.

SWAPA is starting what sounds like a long process to hire and train a new negotiating committee. The letter from the VP of flight ops followed by the blog from the union president didn't give me any warm fuzzies that they're going to whip up a codeshare fix, find some bigger raises, and fix all of the other stuff that you guys complained about in a short time.

It looks like we're back to the long slog, and if what I read on the other forum is correct, we may be starting from square one, minus retro.

What's funny is that one poster here complained about the codeshare in the TA. Fill me in, how much codeshare protection do we have right now under the agreement we reverted to? Hint: zero. If the company doesn't grow, they only have to tell us the reason why.

So I'm out a thousand bucks. I bet the no guys here are senior to me and are out even more. Next month it will be up to two thousand bucks. Next month, I'd bet money more captains get downgraded. Month following, into the fall? More captains downgraded.

No contractual protections for the lances that wanted to be grandfathered, so voting no didn't save them. No contractual protections for code share, so Volaris and Westjet move ahead with absolutely zero cap, no restrictions whatsoever.

Let's start counting:
1. Money is leaving our pockets, a lot of money out of our paychecks starting last paycheck.
2. Captain downgrade means that "saving the lances" is a moot point
3. Reverting to the old contract means we have zero say over codeshare. None, the CEO could hire Skywest tomorrow to fill in California and Texas short-haul. Under the TA, he couldn't, right now, I bet he's got phone messages on his desk from Skywest, Republic, ASA...
4. More schedule cuts coming in the fall, so overall pilot pay will go down. With the raises, it wouldn't have. Now, we're not only going to lose on additional salary, we're in the enviable position to actually be taking a pay cut due to schedule cuts. Nice, guys!
5. Did I mention we don't have any contractual protections for domestic codeshare? Just wondering if that sunk in.

So far, you've called me names, but nobody has shown me how we're better off than we would have been if it passed. That's because we're not better off. We're worse off, and it's going to continue to go downhill.

Even the new contract had better furlough clauses in it than our current, so if that happens, the guys would have been better off (and no, I'm not saying voting no will cause furloughs, but voting yes would have put more money in the pockets of the guys getting cut loose).

I had hopes the union and the management would meet and come up with something fast and good. It looks instead like management popped the champagne corks and is going to push any raises until next calendar year, or later.

Where is the rejoicing over the no vote? Why are you guys calling me names instead of telling me what is now better than before?
 

shearedshaft

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...and I think Radar is right, if the company caved easy, there would never be another union on the property that didn't vote down the first TA offered.

Even if management WANTED to cave in, this reason alone means that we're in for the long haul, they can't telegraph that they don't really mean it when they say, "This is as far we we can go"

Think about that, negotiating committees have to believe the company when they reach the end of the road. If the end of the road isn't really the end of the road, then there isn't an NC around that will believe the company negotiators have any credibility.

So you guys hoping something lovely and sunny comes out from a no vote might want to think about whether or not the company wants to give up all of their credibility for all future negotiations.

Look three threads below this...Airtran is now seeking even more concessions after to failed TAs. Are we that different over at SWA?
 

scoreboardII

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instead of telling me what is now better than before

We are acting like union that seeks to ensure the betterment of all, not just a select few on the top of the heap. That includes those that come behind US.

YOU fail to realize it isn't all about "ME, MINE, I"; it's about US and WE.

YOU are upset because YOU are out $1,000, which YOUR'E not. YOU will get that $1,000 once a new TA is agreed upon by US.

YOU fail to realize YOU are now on the side of the US with a no vote on the TA.

It will all work out for the better, If WE hang together, instead of being greedy and only caring about YOU.

If SWA so much as hints at pulling a Tranny pullback, it's going to be awfully hard moving jets with the parking brake set. I believe SWA will come out looking like gold, throw in a few monior bones, appproved TA, life goes on. You are the one with doom and gloom.
 
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Herkdrv

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May I ask what your background was before coming to SW?

What I wrote before is coming true. The "no" vote looks to be a very, very expensive decision.

Now we have Gary Kelly saying we're negotiating in a new environment (whups, I thought if we vote no the company was going to give us more money? Someone should tell the CEO, I don't think he got the message).

I've read that we have chief pilots saying that retro is now off the table, and to top it off:

23 captain downgrades in a month or so.

God only knows what that is going to do to the lances (does everyone get to keep their star? No? Yes? I thought many people voted no because of the lances, there were a little over 100 that would have lost their stars, where does this 23 fit in? Maybe over the next five months, the rest will lose their star, and we'll still not get our overdue pay raises. )

I've been been hearing from more and more that we just cut off our nose to spite our face.

In September, when your 6% raise doesn't show up (sorry 7% with the 401(k) bump) you can thank your lucky stars that we paid around $12,000 per year per pilot for a no vote. Sure was nice to save those lances. Well, 3/4th of them. Until September, then it might be 1/2 of them. Until January, where it might be...zero.
 

Daddy

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...and I think Radar is right, if the company caved easy, there would never be another union on the property that didn't vote down the first TA offered.

Even if management WANTED to cave in, this reason alone means that we're in for the long haul, they can't telegraph that they don't really mean it when they say, "This is as far we we can go"

Think about that, negotiating committees have to believe the company when they reach the end of the road. If the end of the road isn't really the end of the road, then there isn't an NC around that will believe the company negotiators have any credibility.

So you guys hoping something lovely and sunny comes out from a no vote might want to think about whether or not the company wants to give up all of their credibility for all future negotiations.

Look three threads below this...Airtran is now seeking even more concessions after to failed TAs. Are we that different over at SWA?

If the next TA is not better, it will fail...period. Then SWA will have to deal with the very real possibility of getting ALPA on property...like Airtran. If you think they are fine with dealing with ALPA, then you need to take a drug test before you go flying again. Mgmt does not want to go down this road. You may lose your house because you cant live off the extra 1000 bucks now, but you will be better off in the long term when we get a (slightly) better deal in the next few months. I personally will be much better off with the flexibility in the current contract...I am up roughly 2K already due to the extra time and a half flying that otherwise would not have been available with the TA's draconian ELITT restrictions.
 

Blue Dude

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What I wrote before is coming true. The "no" vote looks to be a very, very expensive decision.

...

I've read that we have chief pilots saying that retro is now off the table, and to top it off:

23 captain downgrades in a month or so.

How many captain downgrades would you expect with looser scope restrictions? Just wondering.
 

shearedshaft

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YOU will get that $1,000 once a new TA is agreed upon by US.

It will all work out for the better, If WE hang together, instead of being greedy and only caring about YOU.

Well, rumor has it that retro is off the table, because it was us that said no to the money. It's a good argument, we said no to the money.

I'm curious as to exactly how sure you are about this retro.

I haven't heard one single voice from people who would actually know (read SWAPA and SWA executives, something in writing or a Torti video) that have stated that what you said is true. Maybe it is, or maybe it's your fantasy speaking. I guess we'll find out. The only think I have heard is that retro is off the table, so that goes against your thoughts. But that's a rumor, maybe it's wrong.

And to the poster talking about "draconian ELITT restrictions", I call bull. The ELITT committee, whoever those people are, post new restrictions all the time on the forum and nobody bitches. I don't even read them.

Why don't I read them? Because ELITT is useless for anyone who is a weekday flier.

The changes weren't draconian. But maybe I'm wrong, so show me, using a real example instead of a catchphrase ("draconian") how I am worse off under the new contract regarding ELITT.

More weekend restrictions would actually make it easier for a weekday flier like me to use ELITT, as would restricting lances and first year guys from pounding on the system. So weekend restrictions make it harder for YOU, but make it better for ME, there will be some weekday trips left to trade to, perhaps.

But as you reminded me, it's not all about you, is it?
 
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