SWAPA TA Failure and downgrades

[PCL_128]

Well, rumor has it that retro is off the table, because it was us that said no to the money. It's a good argument, we said no to the money.

You sound like a gullible newhire at an RJ operator, for f&ck sake. "Off the table?" I've got news for you: nothing is ever "off the table" in negotiations. That may be their ridiculous line at the table, but it's all posturing. They know full well that they won't get away with not paying you retro. Don't be a chump.

 

[firstthird]

no COLA, no retro, no contract.

 

[shearedshaft]

How many captain downgrades would you expect with looser scope restrictions? Just wondering.

There are exactly zero scope restrictions in the current contract, so your question is hard to answer.

The new contract restricted domestic code share and RJs, the old (current) contract did not. So voting no was to vote against scope and codeshare restrictions. Odd to hear that argument.

Status quo is much worse under the contract that was last negotiated when I was probably still in high school.

There is a side letter that says that the company plans to grow and that's why they're codesharing (yah, sure) but if the company doesn't grow, the only penalty is to sit down with the union and explain why they aren't growing.

And why they aren't growing isn't a rocket science question, now is it?

 

[shearedshaft]

no COLA, no retro, no contract.

No contract, no raises! Everyone, including management is happy.

Except those of us who fly weekdays, can't ELITT because of the weekend guys and lances who make it useless for us, and those of us who want to restrict domestic codeshare.

And to the guy who is making fun of Retro being "off the table", I have no idea if it is or not, but I do want to make the point that you don't either.

If it's still on the table, is it tradable? Does our new NC, six months down the road, get presented with "Retro or lance reduction?" Or "Retro or ELITT changes?"

Maybe not. Maybe we'll get the keys to the cash register and they'll send up balloons at headquarters when the NC shows up. Herb will take them to a strip club, tell them that they get everything everyone wants and we'll get to vote and be happy.

...Or maybe we'll be told that the economic conditions are completely different now then they were when the raises were negotiated (oh wait, Gary has already said that, hasn't he? Not a chance his negotiating team will say it too, now is there?) and if we want that, we have to give up this.

 

[firstthird]

shearedshaft "the sky is falling, the sky is falling"

you fear guys failed to get the 50% + 1 that you were looking for. the vote is over. it is time to renegotiate and get something that a majority of us will approve.

I'm sorry if you fall for the chief pilot talking points of the day. Last I checked, Chuck hasn't canceled ELITT yet even though our own union guys were selling that little fear package, helping the chief pilots along.

We'll see how it goes but I'm not scared. are you?

p.s. we made 30 million in the first quarter flying airplanes. and we might make money this quarter too, despite revenue management screwing the pooch and selling much of our inventory out in the early spring for fire sale prices, again. reminds me of the summer of 2007. full all summer, anemic profits. I hope they learned something during the intervening two years. something like, you can't make money selling tickets below cost.

 

[shearedshaft]

May I ask what your background was before coming to SW?

Why is that important? Why is that the first question out of every air force guy flying a civilian airplane? I'm on Flightinfo, so connect the dots, where do most of us come from?

Personel items? I fly a lot, I couldn't pick out my board rep from a lineup without a copy of the reporting point to look at his picture, I don't know anyone in management and in general, I could have cared less about the politics of the union and company until I heard the nonsense coming out of many of the no voters.

What counts now, however, is that I am a SWA pilot, I read the contract and I understand it, warts and all.

I read through the contract and kept thinking about the why's of the changes. "Aha!" I would say. "They're trying to keep guys from using ELITT to change bases. Or using ELITT to change from a copilot to a captain!"

The new contract had JA at double time and JA pay would start if you were rerouted even a minute before or after your scheduled day (yes, guys from other airlines, any reroute that changed your duty day was paid at time and a half, what a drag).

Overfly pay would start sooner (half of what it is now), ust like American, except we're not quite yet being paid by the minute, but it's closer.

New restrictions were put on ELITT that would partially restrict junior guys and lances from moving all weekend flying to the weekdays (which screws weekday fliers who wanted to use ELITT and who can't right now), would restrict lances and first year guys from pounding on ELITT so that net zero might, for once, be positive, so a weekday flier might have a chance to change his schedule around.

It gave oversized raises to senior FOs (dollar for dollar equaling captain raises), it restricted domestic code share and RJs.

It also changed our good-ol' boy open time system to one with multiple bidding opportunities, turned VJA into true VJA, oh hell, I bet you guys didn't even read the contract all the way through. I'm going to stop now.

You're welcome to keep calling me names, I'm PHX based, so you know I can take a lot of guff.

But seriously, other than calling me names and asking what my background was, why don't you address the argument I'm making?

 

[Herkdrv]

Why is that important? Why is that the first question out of every air force guy flying a civilian airplane? I'm on Flightinfo, so connect the dots.

Personel items? I fly a lot, I couldn't pick out my board rep from a lineup without a copy of the reporting point to look at his picture, I don't know anyone in management and in general, I could have cared less about the politics of the union and company until I heard the nonsense coming out of many of the no voters.

What counts now, however, is that I am a SWA pilot, I read the contract and I understand it, warts and all.

I read through the contract and kept thinking about the why's of the changes. "Aha!" I would say. "They're trying to keep guys from using ELITT to change bases. Or using ELITT to change from a copilot to a captain!"

The new contract had JA at double time, had JA pay start if you were rerouted even a minute before or after your scheduled day (yes, guys from other airlines, any reroute that changed your duty day was paid at time and a half, what a drag).

Overfly pay would start at half of what it is now. Just like American, except we're not quite yet being paid by the minute, but it's closer.

New restrictions were put on ELITT that would partially restrict junior guys and lances from moving all weekend flying to the weekdays (which screws weekday fliers who wanted to use ELITT and who can't right now), would restrict lances and first year guys from pounding on ELITT so that net zero might, for once, be positive, so a weekday flier might have a chance to change his schedule around.

It gave oversized raises to senior FOs (dollar for dollar equaling captain raises), it restricted domestic code share and RJs.

It also changed our good-ol' boy open time system to one with multiple bidding opportunities, turned VJA into true VJA, oh hell, I bet you guys didn't even read the contract all the way through. I'm going to stop now.

You're welcome to keep calling me names, I'm PHX based, so you know I can take a lot of guff.

But seriously, other than calling me names and asking what my background was, why don't you address the argument I'm making?

Well it sounds like you are falling for every single management trick in the book and was just wondering if this was your first airline or not. So is this your first airline?

 

[m80drvr]

Why is that important? Why is that the first question out of every air force guy flying a civilian airplane? I'm on Flightinfo, so connect the dots.

Personel items? I fly a lot, I couldn't pick out my board rep from a lineup without a copy of the reporting point to look at his picture, I don't know anyone in management and in general, I could have cared less about the politics of the union and company until I heard the nonsense coming out of many of the no voters.

What counts now, however, is that I am a SWA pilot, I read the contract and I understand it, warts and all.

I read through the contract and kept thinking about the why's of the changes. "Aha!" I would say. "They're trying to keep guys from using ELITT to change bases. Or using ELITT to change from a copilot to a captain!"

The new contract had JA at double time, had JA pay start if you were rerouted even a minute before or after your scheduled day (yes, guys from other airlines, any reroute that changed your duty day was paid at time and a half, what a drag).

Overfly pay would start at half of what it is now. Just like American, except we're not quite yet being paid by the minute, but it's closer.

New restrictions were put on ELITT that would partially restrict junior guys and lances from moving all weekend flying to the weekdays (which screws weekday fliers who wanted to use ELITT and who can't right now), would restrict lances and first year guys from pounding on ELITT so that net zero might, for once, be positive, so a weekday flier might have a chance to change his schedule around.

It gave oversized raises to senior FOs (dollar for dollar equaling captain raises), it restricted domestic code share and RJs.

It also changed our good-ol' boy open time system to one with multiple bidding opportunities, turned VJA into true VJA, oh hell, I bet you guys didn't even read the contract all the way through. I'm going to stop now.

You're welcome to keep calling me names, I'm PHX based, so you know I can take a lot of guff.

But seriously, other than calling me names and asking what my background was, why don't you address the argument I'm making?

No really...Where did you come from? You are coming across as a selfish idiot I just wonder what path you took to get here.

 

[shearedshaft]

shearedshaft "the sky is falling, the sky is falling"

you fear guys failed to get the 50% + 1 that you were looking for. the vote is over. it is time to renegotiate and get something that a majority of us will approve.

I'm sorry if you fall for the chief pilot talking points of the day. Last I checked, Chuck hasn't canceled ELITT yet even though our own union guys were selling that little fear package, helping the chief pilots along.

We'll see how it goes but I'm not scared. are you?

p.s. we made 30 million in the first quarter flying airplanes. and we might make money this quarter too, despite revenue management screwing the pooch and selling much of our inventory out in the early spring for fire sale prices, again. reminds me of the summer of 2007. full all summer, anemic profits. I hope they learned something during the intervening two years. something like, you can't make money selling tickets below cost.

I'm not a "fear guy". I didn't say a word to anyone until after the contract failed, then I smacked my head because I should have spoken up.

This shiit is expensive. You took a $1,000 month bird in the hand and traded it for an unknown. We'll now have a new negotiating committee, walking into the lion's mouth during the worst recession in 50 years asking for "more please." That's $12,000 per year, or more if you're a senior dude.

That's a lot of coin to place on the roulette table.

As I've written about, ELITT doesn't mean squat to me, or to anyone who flies weekdays. It doesn't work. I don't care if SWAPA or the company pull the plug, I wouldn't notice the difference.

I hate codeshare, and I liked restricting all domestic codeshare so we don't get an American/American Eagle thing going. But hey, back to the roulette table. What happens when a Republic contract gets announced? Then our NC is going to have to get SWA to back out of something that's already going, instead of restricting them from starting.

And I don't know the chief pilot talking points, I wish I did. The only (only!) interesting stuff I've heard is from a guy who was on the negotiating committee and is posting on the forum. I wish he would have spoken up a little earlier.

 

[shearedshaft]

No really...Where did you come from? You are coming across as a selfish idiot I just wonder what path you took to get here.

More with the insults. Fine, but deep in your heart, you have a sinking feeling that I'm right.

Just wait until you get a progress report from our new (well, "new" isn't right the sperm hasn't even left the vas deferens yet) NC and their fancy box-stuffer says, "SWA now maintains that times are different now than when they first negotiated the last TA, so we are making very little progress."

When that comes out, I'd like you, like a rapper, to pour out a 40 on your copy of the old TA and think, "He was right after all."

So far I've gotten insulted and asked about my background.

Nobody has touched the central issues.