SWAPA TA Failure and downgrades

[scoreboardII]

instead of telling me what is now better than before

We are acting like union that seeks to ensure the betterment of all, not just a select few on the top of the heap. That includes those that come behind US.

YOU fail to realize it isn't all about "ME, MINE, I"; it's about US and WE.

YOU are upset because YOU are out $1,000, which YOUR'E not. YOU will get that $1,000 once a new TA is agreed upon by US.

YOU fail to realize YOU are now on the side of the US with a no vote on the TA.

It will all work out for the better, If WE hang together, instead of being greedy and only caring about YOU.

If SWA so much as hints at pulling a Tranny pullback, it's going to be awfully hard moving jets with the parking brake set. I believe SWA will come out looking like gold, throw in a few monior bones, appproved TA, life goes on. You are the one with doom and gloom.

 

[Herkdrv]

May I ask what your background was before coming to SW?

What I wrote before is coming true. The "no" vote looks to be a very, very expensive decision.

Now we have Gary Kelly saying we're negotiating in a new environment (whups, I thought if we vote no the company was going to give us more money? Someone should tell the CEO, I don't think he got the message).

I've read that we have chief pilots saying that retro is now off the table, and to top it off:

23 captain downgrades in a month or so.

God only knows what that is going to do to the lances (does everyone get to keep their star? No? Yes? I thought many people voted no because of the lances, there were a little over 100 that would have lost their stars, where does this 23 fit in? Maybe over the next five months, the rest will lose their star, and we'll still not get our overdue pay raises. )

I've been been hearing from more and more that we just cut off our nose to spite our face.

In September, when your 6% raise doesn't show up (sorry 7% with the 401(k) bump) you can thank your lucky stars that we paid around $12,000 per year per pilot for a no vote. Sure was nice to save those lances. Well, 3/4th of them. Until September, then it might be 1/2 of them. Until January, where it might be...zero.

 

[Daddy]

...and I think Radar is right, if the company caved easy, there would never be another union on the property that didn't vote down the first TA offered.

Even if management WANTED to cave in, this reason alone means that we're in for the long haul, they can't telegraph that they don't really mean it when they say, "This is as far we we can go"

Think about that, negotiating committees have to believe the company when they reach the end of the road. If the end of the road isn't really the end of the road, then there isn't an NC around that will believe the company negotiators have any credibility.

So you guys hoping something lovely and sunny comes out from a no vote might want to think about whether or not the company wants to give up all of their credibility for all future negotiations.

Look three threads below this...Airtran is now seeking even more concessions after to failed TAs. Are we that different over at SWA?

If the next TA is not better, it will fail...period. Then SWA will have to deal with the very real possibility of getting ALPA on property...like Airtran. If you think they are fine with dealing with ALPA, then you need to take a drug test before you go flying again. Mgmt does not want to go down this road. You may lose your house because you cant live off the extra 1000 bucks now, but you will be better off in the long term when we get a (slightly) better deal in the next few months. I personally will be much better off with the flexibility in the current contract...I am up roughly 2K already due to the extra time and a half flying that otherwise would not have been available with the TA's draconian ELITT restrictions.

 

[Blue Dude]

What I wrote before is coming true. The "no" vote looks to be a very, very expensive decision.

...

I've read that we have chief pilots saying that retro is now off the table, and to top it off:

23 captain downgrades in a month or so.

How many captain downgrades would you expect with looser scope restrictions? Just wondering.

 

[shearedshaft]

YOU will get that $1,000 once a new TA is agreed upon by US.

It will all work out for the better, If WE hang together, instead of being greedy and only caring about YOU.

Well, rumor has it that retro is off the table, because it was us that said no to the money. It's a good argument, we said no to the money.

I'm curious as to exactly how sure you are about this retro.

I haven't heard one single voice from people who would actually know (read SWAPA and SWA executives, something in writing or a Torti video) that have stated that what you said is true. Maybe it is, or maybe it's your fantasy speaking. I guess we'll find out. The only think I have heard is that retro is off the table, so that goes against your thoughts. But that's a rumor, maybe it's wrong.

And to the poster talking about "draconian ELITT restrictions", I call bull. The ELITT committee, whoever those people are, post new restrictions all the time on the forum and nobody bitches. I don't even read them.

Why don't I read them? Because ELITT is useless for anyone who is a weekday flier.

The changes weren't draconian. But maybe I'm wrong, so show me, using a real example instead of a catchphrase ("draconian") how I am worse off under the new contract regarding ELITT.

More weekend restrictions would actually make it easier for a weekday flier like me to use ELITT, as would restricting lances and first year guys from pounding on the system. So weekend restrictions make it harder for YOU, but make it better for ME, there will be some weekday trips left to trade to, perhaps.

But as you reminded me, it's not all about you, is it?

 

[PCL_128]

Well, rumor has it that retro is off the table, because it was us that said no to the money. It's a good argument, we said no to the money.

You sound like a gullible newhire at an RJ operator, for f&ck sake. "Off the table?" I've got news for you: nothing is ever "off the table" in negotiations. That may be their ridiculous line at the table, but it's all posturing. They know full well that they won't get away with not paying you retro. Don't be a chump.

 

[firstthird]

no COLA, no retro, no contract.

 

[shearedshaft]

How many captain downgrades would you expect with looser scope restrictions? Just wondering.

There are exactly zero scope restrictions in the current contract, so your question is hard to answer.

The new contract restricted domestic code share and RJs, the old (current) contract did not. So voting no was to vote against scope and codeshare restrictions. Odd to hear that argument.

Status quo is much worse under the contract that was last negotiated when I was probably still in high school.

There is a side letter that says that the company plans to grow and that's why they're codesharing (yah, sure) but if the company doesn't grow, the only penalty is to sit down with the union and explain why they aren't growing.

And why they aren't growing isn't a rocket science question, now is it?

 

[shearedshaft]

no COLA, no retro, no contract.

No contract, no raises! Everyone, including management is happy.

Except those of us who fly weekdays, can't ELITT because of the weekend guys and lances who make it useless for us, and those of us who want to restrict domestic codeshare.

And to the guy who is making fun of Retro being "off the table", I have no idea if it is or not, but I do want to make the point that you don't either.

If it's still on the table, is it tradable? Does our new NC, six months down the road, get presented with "Retro or lance reduction?" Or "Retro or ELITT changes?"

Maybe not. Maybe we'll get the keys to the cash register and they'll send up balloons at headquarters when the NC shows up. Herb will take them to a strip club, tell them that they get everything everyone wants and we'll get to vote and be happy.

...Or maybe we'll be told that the economic conditions are completely different now then they were when the raises were negotiated (oh wait, Gary has already said that, hasn't he? Not a chance his negotiating team will say it too, now is there?) and if we want that, we have to give up this.

 

[firstthird]

shearedshaft "the sky is falling, the sky is falling"

you fear guys failed to get the 50% + 1 that you were looking for. the vote is over. it is time to renegotiate and get something that a majority of us will approve.

I'm sorry if you fall for the chief pilot talking points of the day. Last I checked, Chuck hasn't canceled ELITT yet even though our own union guys were selling that little fear package, helping the chief pilots along.

We'll see how it goes but I'm not scared. are you?

p.s. we made 30 million in the first quarter flying airplanes. and we might make money this quarter too, despite revenue management screwing the pooch and selling much of our inventory out in the early spring for fire sale prices, again. reminds me of the summer of 2007. full all summer, anemic profits. I hope they learned something during the intervening two years. something like, you can't make money selling tickets below cost.

 

[shearedshaft]

May I ask what your background was before coming to SW?

Why is that important? Why is that the first question out of every air force guy flying a civilian airplane? I'm on Flightinfo, so connect the dots, where do most of us come from?

Personel items? I fly a lot, I couldn't pick out my board rep from a lineup without a copy of the reporting point to look at his picture, I don't know anyone in management and in general, I could have cared less about the politics of the union and company until I heard the nonsense coming out of many of the no voters.

What counts now, however, is that I am a SWA pilot, I read the contract and I understand it, warts and all.

I read through the contract and kept thinking about the why's of the changes. "Aha!" I would say. "They're trying to keep guys from using ELITT to change bases. Or using ELITT to change from a copilot to a captain!"

The new contract had JA at double time and JA pay would start if you were rerouted even a minute before or after your scheduled day (yes, guys from other airlines, any reroute that changed your duty day was paid at time and a half, what a drag).

Overfly pay would start sooner (half of what it is now), ust like American, except we're not quite yet being paid by the minute, but it's closer.

New restrictions were put on ELITT that would partially restrict junior guys and lances from moving all weekend flying to the weekdays (which screws weekday fliers who wanted to use ELITT and who can't right now), would restrict lances and first year guys from pounding on ELITT so that net zero might, for once, be positive, so a weekday flier might have a chance to change his schedule around.

It gave oversized raises to senior FOs (dollar for dollar equaling captain raises), it restricted domestic code share and RJs.

It also changed our good-ol' boy open time system to one with multiple bidding opportunities, turned VJA into true VJA, oh hell, I bet you guys didn't even read the contract all the way through. I'm going to stop now.

You're welcome to keep calling me names, I'm PHX based, so you know I can take a lot of guff.

But seriously, other than calling me names and asking what my background was, why don't you address the argument I'm making?

 

[Herkdrv]

Why is that important? Why is that the first question out of every air force guy flying a civilian airplane? I'm on Flightinfo, so connect the dots.

Personel items? I fly a lot, I couldn't pick out my board rep from a lineup without a copy of the reporting point to look at his picture, I don't know anyone in management and in general, I could have cared less about the politics of the union and company until I heard the nonsense coming out of many of the no voters.

What counts now, however, is that I am a SWA pilot, I read the contract and I understand it, warts and all.

I read through the contract and kept thinking about the why's of the changes. "Aha!" I would say. "They're trying to keep guys from using ELITT to change bases. Or using ELITT to change from a copilot to a captain!"

The new contract had JA at double time, had JA pay start if you were rerouted even a minute before or after your scheduled day (yes, guys from other airlines, any reroute that changed your duty day was paid at time and a half, what a drag).

Overfly pay would start at half of what it is now. Just like American, except we're not quite yet being paid by the minute, but it's closer.

New restrictions were put on ELITT that would partially restrict junior guys and lances from moving all weekend flying to the weekdays (which screws weekday fliers who wanted to use ELITT and who can't right now), would restrict lances and first year guys from pounding on ELITT so that net zero might, for once, be positive, so a weekday flier might have a chance to change his schedule around.

It gave oversized raises to senior FOs (dollar for dollar equaling captain raises), it restricted domestic code share and RJs.

It also changed our good-ol' boy open time system to one with multiple bidding opportunities, turned VJA into true VJA, oh hell, I bet you guys didn't even read the contract all the way through. I'm going to stop now.

You're welcome to keep calling me names, I'm PHX based, so you know I can take a lot of guff.

But seriously, other than calling me names and asking what my background was, why don't you address the argument I'm making?

Well it sounds like you are falling for every single management trick in the book and was just wondering if this was your first airline or not. So is this your first airline?

 

[m80drvr]

Why is that important? Why is that the first question out of every air force guy flying a civilian airplane? I'm on Flightinfo, so connect the dots.

Personel items? I fly a lot, I couldn't pick out my board rep from a lineup without a copy of the reporting point to look at his picture, I don't know anyone in management and in general, I could have cared less about the politics of the union and company until I heard the nonsense coming out of many of the no voters.

What counts now, however, is that I am a SWA pilot, I read the contract and I understand it, warts and all.

I read through the contract and kept thinking about the why's of the changes. "Aha!" I would say. "They're trying to keep guys from using ELITT to change bases. Or using ELITT to change from a copilot to a captain!"

The new contract had JA at double time, had JA pay start if you were rerouted even a minute before or after your scheduled day (yes, guys from other airlines, any reroute that changed your duty day was paid at time and a half, what a drag).

Overfly pay would start at half of what it is now. Just like American, except we're not quite yet being paid by the minute, but it's closer.

New restrictions were put on ELITT that would partially restrict junior guys and lances from moving all weekend flying to the weekdays (which screws weekday fliers who wanted to use ELITT and who can't right now), would restrict lances and first year guys from pounding on ELITT so that net zero might, for once, be positive, so a weekday flier might have a chance to change his schedule around.

It gave oversized raises to senior FOs (dollar for dollar equaling captain raises), it restricted domestic code share and RJs.

It also changed our good-ol' boy open time system to one with multiple bidding opportunities, turned VJA into true VJA, oh hell, I bet you guys didn't even read the contract all the way through. I'm going to stop now.

You're welcome to keep calling me names, I'm PHX based, so you know I can take a lot of guff.

But seriously, other than calling me names and asking what my background was, why don't you address the argument I'm making?

No really...Where did you come from? You are coming across as a selfish idiot I just wonder what path you took to get here.

 

[shearedshaft]

shearedshaft "the sky is falling, the sky is falling"

you fear guys failed to get the 50% + 1 that you were looking for. the vote is over. it is time to renegotiate and get something that a majority of us will approve.

I'm sorry if you fall for the chief pilot talking points of the day. Last I checked, Chuck hasn't canceled ELITT yet even though our own union guys were selling that little fear package, helping the chief pilots along.

We'll see how it goes but I'm not scared. are you?

p.s. we made 30 million in the first quarter flying airplanes. and we might make money this quarter too, despite revenue management screwing the pooch and selling much of our inventory out in the early spring for fire sale prices, again. reminds me of the summer of 2007. full all summer, anemic profits. I hope they learned something during the intervening two years. something like, you can't make money selling tickets below cost.

I'm not a "fear guy". I didn't say a word to anyone until after the contract failed, then I smacked my head because I should have spoken up.

This shiit is expensive. You took a $1,000 month bird in the hand and traded it for an unknown. We'll now have a new negotiating committee, walking into the lion's mouth during the worst recession in 50 years asking for "more please." That's $12,000 per year, or more if you're a senior dude.

That's a lot of coin to place on the roulette table.

As I've written about, ELITT doesn't mean squat to me, or to anyone who flies weekdays. It doesn't work. I don't care if SWAPA or the company pull the plug, I wouldn't notice the difference.

I hate codeshare, and I liked restricting all domestic codeshare so we don't get an American/American Eagle thing going. But hey, back to the roulette table. What happens when a Republic contract gets announced? Then our NC is going to have to get SWA to back out of something that's already going, instead of restricting them from starting.

And I don't know the chief pilot talking points, I wish I did. The only (only!) interesting stuff I've heard is from a guy who was on the negotiating committee and is posting on the forum. I wish he would have spoken up a little earlier.

 

[shearedshaft]

No really...Where did you come from? You are coming across as a selfish idiot I just wonder what path you took to get here.

More with the insults. Fine, but deep in your heart, you have a sinking feeling that I'm right.

Just wait until you get a progress report from our new (well, "new" isn't right the sperm hasn't even left the vas deferens yet) NC and their fancy box-stuffer says, "SWA now maintains that times are different now than when they first negotiated the last TA, so we are making very little progress."

When that comes out, I'd like you, like a rapper, to pour out a 40 on your copy of the old TA and think, "He was right after all."

So far I've gotten insulted and asked about my background.

Nobody has touched the central issues.