SWAPA TA Failure and downgrades

[PCL_128]

Well, rumor has it that retro is off the table, because it was us that said no to the money. It's a good argument, we said no to the money.

You sound like a gullible newhire at an RJ operator, for f&ck sake. "Off the table?" I've got news for you: nothing is ever "off the table" in negotiations. That may be their ridiculous line at the table, but it's all posturing. They know full well that they won't get away with not paying you retro. Don't be a chump.

 

[firstthird]

no COLA, no retro, no contract.

 

[shearedshaft]

How many captain downgrades would you expect with looser scope restrictions? Just wondering.

There are exactly zero scope restrictions in the current contract, so your question is hard to answer.

The new contract restricted domestic code share and RJs, the old (current) contract did not. So voting no was to vote against scope and codeshare restrictions. Odd to hear that argument.

Status quo is much worse under the contract that was last negotiated when I was probably still in high school.

There is a side letter that says that the company plans to grow and that's why they're codesharing (yah, sure) but if the company doesn't grow, the only penalty is to sit down with the union and explain why they aren't growing.

And why they aren't growing isn't a rocket science question, now is it?

 

[shearedshaft]

no COLA, no retro, no contract.

No contract, no raises! Everyone, including management is happy.

Except those of us who fly weekdays, can't ELITT because of the weekend guys and lances who make it useless for us, and those of us who want to restrict domestic codeshare.

And to the guy who is making fun of Retro being "off the table", I have no idea if it is or not, but I do want to make the point that you don't either.

If it's still on the table, is it tradable? Does our new NC, six months down the road, get presented with "Retro or lance reduction?" Or "Retro or ELITT changes?"

Maybe not. Maybe we'll get the keys to the cash register and they'll send up balloons at headquarters when the NC shows up. Herb will take them to a strip club, tell them that they get everything everyone wants and we'll get to vote and be happy.

...Or maybe we'll be told that the economic conditions are completely different now then they were when the raises were negotiated (oh wait, Gary has already said that, hasn't he? Not a chance his negotiating team will say it too, now is there?) and if we want that, we have to give up this.

 

[firstthird]

shearedshaft "the sky is falling, the sky is falling"

you fear guys failed to get the 50% + 1 that you were looking for. the vote is over. it is time to renegotiate and get something that a majority of us will approve.

I'm sorry if you fall for the chief pilot talking points of the day. Last I checked, Chuck hasn't canceled ELITT yet even though our own union guys were selling that little fear package, helping the chief pilots along.

We'll see how it goes but I'm not scared. are you?

p.s. we made 30 million in the first quarter flying airplanes. and we might make money this quarter too, despite revenue management screwing the pooch and selling much of our inventory out in the early spring for fire sale prices, again. reminds me of the summer of 2007. full all summer, anemic profits. I hope they learned something during the intervening two years. something like, you can't make money selling tickets below cost.

 

[shearedshaft]

May I ask what your background was before coming to SW?

Why is that important? Why is that the first question out of every air force guy flying a civilian airplane? I'm on Flightinfo, so connect the dots, where do most of us come from?

Personel items? I fly a lot, I couldn't pick out my board rep from a lineup without a copy of the reporting point to look at his picture, I don't know anyone in management and in general, I could have cared less about the politics of the union and company until I heard the nonsense coming out of many of the no voters.

What counts now, however, is that I am a SWA pilot, I read the contract and I understand it, warts and all.

I read through the contract and kept thinking about the why's of the changes. "Aha!" I would say. "They're trying to keep guys from using ELITT to change bases. Or using ELITT to change from a copilot to a captain!"

The new contract had JA at double time and JA pay would start if you were rerouted even a minute before or after your scheduled day (yes, guys from other airlines, any reroute that changed your duty day was paid at time and a half, what a drag).

Overfly pay would start sooner (half of what it is now), ust like American, except we're not quite yet being paid by the minute, but it's closer.

New restrictions were put on ELITT that would partially restrict junior guys and lances from moving all weekend flying to the weekdays (which screws weekday fliers who wanted to use ELITT and who can't right now), would restrict lances and first year guys from pounding on ELITT so that net zero might, for once, be positive, so a weekday flier might have a chance to change his schedule around.

It gave oversized raises to senior FOs (dollar for dollar equaling captain raises), it restricted domestic code share and RJs.

It also changed our good-ol' boy open time system to one with multiple bidding opportunities, turned VJA into true VJA, oh hell, I bet you guys didn't even read the contract all the way through. I'm going to stop now.

You're welcome to keep calling me names, I'm PHX based, so you know I can take a lot of guff.

But seriously, other than calling me names and asking what my background was, why don't you address the argument I'm making?

 

[Herkdrv]

Why is that important? Why is that the first question out of every air force guy flying a civilian airplane? I'm on Flightinfo, so connect the dots.

Personel items? I fly a lot, I couldn't pick out my board rep from a lineup without a copy of the reporting point to look at his picture, I don't know anyone in management and in general, I could have cared less about the politics of the union and company until I heard the nonsense coming out of many of the no voters.

What counts now, however, is that I am a SWA pilot, I read the contract and I understand it, warts and all.

I read through the contract and kept thinking about the why's of the changes. "Aha!" I would say. "They're trying to keep guys from using ELITT to change bases. Or using ELITT to change from a copilot to a captain!"

The new contract had JA at double time, had JA pay start if you were rerouted even a minute before or after your scheduled day (yes, guys from other airlines, any reroute that changed your duty day was paid at time and a half, what a drag).

Overfly pay would start at half of what it is now. Just like American, except we're not quite yet being paid by the minute, but it's closer.

New restrictions were put on ELITT that would partially restrict junior guys and lances from moving all weekend flying to the weekdays (which screws weekday fliers who wanted to use ELITT and who can't right now), would restrict lances and first year guys from pounding on ELITT so that net zero might, for once, be positive, so a weekday flier might have a chance to change his schedule around.

It gave oversized raises to senior FOs (dollar for dollar equaling captain raises), it restricted domestic code share and RJs.

It also changed our good-ol' boy open time system to one with multiple bidding opportunities, turned VJA into true VJA, oh hell, I bet you guys didn't even read the contract all the way through. I'm going to stop now.

You're welcome to keep calling me names, I'm PHX based, so you know I can take a lot of guff.

But seriously, other than calling me names and asking what my background was, why don't you address the argument I'm making?

Well it sounds like you are falling for every single management trick in the book and was just wondering if this was your first airline or not. So is this your first airline?

 

[m80drvr]

Why is that important? Why is that the first question out of every air force guy flying a civilian airplane? I'm on Flightinfo, so connect the dots.

Personel items? I fly a lot, I couldn't pick out my board rep from a lineup without a copy of the reporting point to look at his picture, I don't know anyone in management and in general, I could have cared less about the politics of the union and company until I heard the nonsense coming out of many of the no voters.

What counts now, however, is that I am a SWA pilot, I read the contract and I understand it, warts and all.

I read through the contract and kept thinking about the why's of the changes. "Aha!" I would say. "They're trying to keep guys from using ELITT to change bases. Or using ELITT to change from a copilot to a captain!"

The new contract had JA at double time, had JA pay start if you were rerouted even a minute before or after your scheduled day (yes, guys from other airlines, any reroute that changed your duty day was paid at time and a half, what a drag).

Overfly pay would start at half of what it is now. Just like American, except we're not quite yet being paid by the minute, but it's closer.

New restrictions were put on ELITT that would partially restrict junior guys and lances from moving all weekend flying to the weekdays (which screws weekday fliers who wanted to use ELITT and who can't right now), would restrict lances and first year guys from pounding on ELITT so that net zero might, for once, be positive, so a weekday flier might have a chance to change his schedule around.

It gave oversized raises to senior FOs (dollar for dollar equaling captain raises), it restricted domestic code share and RJs.

It also changed our good-ol' boy open time system to one with multiple bidding opportunities, turned VJA into true VJA, oh hell, I bet you guys didn't even read the contract all the way through. I'm going to stop now.

You're welcome to keep calling me names, I'm PHX based, so you know I can take a lot of guff.

But seriously, other than calling me names and asking what my background was, why don't you address the argument I'm making?

No really...Where did you come from? You are coming across as a selfish idiot I just wonder what path you took to get here.

 

[shearedshaft]

shearedshaft "the sky is falling, the sky is falling"

you fear guys failed to get the 50% + 1 that you were looking for. the vote is over. it is time to renegotiate and get something that a majority of us will approve.

I'm sorry if you fall for the chief pilot talking points of the day. Last I checked, Chuck hasn't canceled ELITT yet even though our own union guys were selling that little fear package, helping the chief pilots along.

We'll see how it goes but I'm not scared. are you?

p.s. we made 30 million in the first quarter flying airplanes. and we might make money this quarter too, despite revenue management screwing the pooch and selling much of our inventory out in the early spring for fire sale prices, again. reminds me of the summer of 2007. full all summer, anemic profits. I hope they learned something during the intervening two years. something like, you can't make money selling tickets below cost.

I'm not a "fear guy". I didn't say a word to anyone until after the contract failed, then I smacked my head because I should have spoken up.

This shiit is expensive. You took a $1,000 month bird in the hand and traded it for an unknown. We'll now have a new negotiating committee, walking into the lion's mouth during the worst recession in 50 years asking for "more please." That's $12,000 per year, or more if you're a senior dude.

That's a lot of coin to place on the roulette table.

As I've written about, ELITT doesn't mean squat to me, or to anyone who flies weekdays. It doesn't work. I don't care if SWAPA or the company pull the plug, I wouldn't notice the difference.

I hate codeshare, and I liked restricting all domestic codeshare so we don't get an American/American Eagle thing going. But hey, back to the roulette table. What happens when a Republic contract gets announced? Then our NC is going to have to get SWA to back out of something that's already going, instead of restricting them from starting.

And I don't know the chief pilot talking points, I wish I did. The only (only!) interesting stuff I've heard is from a guy who was on the negotiating committee and is posting on the forum. I wish he would have spoken up a little earlier.

 

[shearedshaft]

No really...Where did you come from? You are coming across as a selfish idiot I just wonder what path you took to get here.

More with the insults. Fine, but deep in your heart, you have a sinking feeling that I'm right.

Just wait until you get a progress report from our new (well, "new" isn't right the sperm hasn't even left the vas deferens yet) NC and their fancy box-stuffer says, "SWA now maintains that times are different now than when they first negotiated the last TA, so we are making very little progress."

When that comes out, I'd like you, like a rapper, to pour out a 40 on your copy of the old TA and think, "He was right after all."

So far I've gotten insulted and asked about my background.

Nobody has touched the central issues.

 

[firstthird]

I wish he would have spoken up a little earlier.

me too. the no vote might have been bigger.

 

[PCL_128]

Why are you worried about domestic code share? If SWA management was going to enter into domestic code share arrangements, they would have done it long ago. It's important to have those protections in whatever contract you get, but your priority right now should be locking them out of international code share before it gets too big. Your flying is being stolen from you and you're being distracted by the red herring of domestic code share.

 

[PropPiedmont]

...Or maybe we'll be told that the economic conditions are completely different now then they were when the raises were negotiated (oh wait, Gary has already said that, hasn't he? Not a chance his negotiating team will say it too, now is there?) and if we want that, we have to give up this.

Well, there you go. There's the answer to your concerns about the downgrades. It's not because of the TA rejection, but due to the economic conditions. Calm down Tanker.

 

[shearedshaft]

Well it sounds like you are falling for every single management trick in the book and was just wondering if this was your first airline or not. So is this your first airline?

What trick have I fallen for? SWA is very happy that they don't have to pay out retro and higher wages for the pilots right now. Is that a management trick?

I read the Dallas news when Gary Kelly was reported saying that regarding the pilot contract, we're in new economic times. You seriously think I'm wrong about our new NC (may they show up soon) won't hear the same thing the CEO is in the newspaper saying about his own negotiating plans? Christ, he said it out loud, I have a fair idea that their position is the following:

1. Be really nice to the pilots
2. Drag their feet
3. Say, "These are tough economic times" over and over
4. Finally agree to something at least a year from now, if not two years.

Maybe I'm wrong, but who give a whip if I am or not? I'm just making a prediction that you guys cost me a bagload of money.

So far, I haven't heard a single person argue differently, so I'm all ears.

Why would the company give us bigger raises and retro right now, given the choice not to? I could see them honoring a prior commitment (hey, Gary Kelly said that too), but I can see them attempting to not make a new commitment.

What does that equal? A long time to a new contract. Will we get retro and as big raises? Will we get bigger ones? Will he want concessions to keep from furloughing? I dunno. Do you?

 

[shearedshaft]

Well, there you go. There's the answer to your concerns about the downgrades. It's not because of the TA rejection, but due to the economic conditions. Calm down Tanker.

No argument. Downgrades are unrelated to the contract. (BTW, your Tanker Clown insult was the only one to get under my skin, so congrats, he's a d o u c h e bag).

My point was that voting no to grandfather the lances is fast becoming moot, the lance population will look a lot different by the time a new TA is presented than it did at the last TA.

 

[CaptSeth]

Why are you worried about domestic code share? If SWA management was going to enter into domestic code share arrangements, they would have done it long ago. It's important to have those protections in whatever contract you get, but your priority right now should be locking them out of international code share before it gets too big. Your flying is being stolen from you and you're being distracted by the red herring of domestic code share.

You remember ATA? I do.

Anyway, this is fun to watch. TIMMMBBBBERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[shearedshaft]

Why are you worried about domestic code share? If SWA management was going to enter into domestic code share arrangements, they would have done it long ago. It's important to have those protections in whatever contract you get, but your priority right now should be locking them out of international code share before it gets too big. Your flying is being stolen from you and you're being distracted by the red herring of domestic code share.

Because we're an all-domestic airline. RJs would fit nicely into some bean-counter's plans between many of our smaller stations that don't fly full.

We don't fly internationally. I would like us to do all that flying. But, nobody asked me. Canada is the size of the NY metropolitan area, passenger-wise, Mexico is devolving into a third-world hellhole. In the near-term, I'm not worried about Canada and Mexico.

But the proposed TA had SWAPA veto power for all other international codeshare. So proposed TA: no domestic, veto on international that doesn't include near international.

Current status quo? No restrictions on domestic, no restrictions on near-international, no restrictions on international.

So again, how is the TA worse than status quo?

But of course, nobody is answering my questions, because the answer is too uncomfortable for you.

 

[shearedshaft]

double post

 

[PCL_128]

Because we're an all-domestic airline.

You miss the whole WestJet and Volaris thing? That's the future of SWA growth.

In the near-term, I'm not worried about Canada and Mexico.

Sounds awfully familiar.

Legacy pilot circa early '90s: "In the near term, I'm not worried about a few little 50-seat RJs flying around. Leave it to the scooter trash."

That worked out well, didn't it? Your management has shown a propensity for wanting to outsource your international growth. You'd better stop it before it's too late.

But the proposed TA had SWAPA veto power for all other international codeshare. So proposed TA: no domestic, veto on international that doesn't include near international.

Near international is probably the only growth you can expect during the term of this agreement.

So again, how is the TA worse than status quo?

Management is stuck dealing with uncertainty right now. They know that if they expand code-share too much right now, then they'll be dealing with a nightmare self-help scenario when the pilot group revolts to stop it before it's too late. On the other hand, if they can bribe you to accept a TA with crappy international scope but no domestic code share (something they don't care about anyway), then they'll have several years under the new agreement to build up the international code share so it's too late for you to stop it by the time the next contract negotiations come around.

You're playing checkers while management is playing chess. Think!

 

[shearedshaft]

You miss the whole WestJet and Volaris thing? That's the future of SWA growth.



Sounds awfully familiar.

Legacy pilot circa early '90s: "In the near term, I'm not worried about a few little 50-seat RJs flying around. Leave it to the scooter trash."

That worked out well, didn't it? Your management has shown a propensity for wanting to outsource your international growth. You'd better stop it before it's too late.



Near international is probably the only growth you can expect during the term of this agreement.



Management is stuck dealing with uncertainty right now. They know that if they expand code-share too much right now, then they'll be dealing with a nightmare self-help scenario when the pilot group revolts to stop it before it's too late. On the other hand, if they can bribe you to accept a TA with crappy international scope but no domestic code share (something they don't care about anyway), then they'll have several years under the new agreement to build up the international code share so it's too late for you to stop it by the time the next contract negotiations come around.

You're playing checkers while management is playing chess. Think!

You make very good points, except for one important one: You propose self-help is a realistic outcome that might happen after a vote is lost with less than a one percent failing margin?

If this thing would have failed 70/30, I wouldn't be writing this, because I would have assumed I just didn't understand what is going on. But not with this margin. Instead, I think a lot of guys voted no because nobody ever bothered to tell them the "why" behind stuff in the changes. As I said, I had to figure them out on my own, on a long-haul with the new TA in hand.

Everyone, from the union to management just left us to figure out what they were trying to get done without saying anything about the matter.

If I were the company, I would be worried about exactly what you said. But not very worried. They got a 50% solution instead of the 51% solution. Self-help is not right around the corner.

And both Canada and Mexico are small. I wish we'd fly there though. But the danger (in my opinion, only time will tell) lies within the heart of what we do every day, which is fly point-to-point in the US, the danger doesn't lie in taking away something we don't even do yet.

How many flights do you think we're really giving up to Canada? To Mexico? Would I vote to go on strike over it? Nope. Would the no voters? I don't know.

Let's ask them. Would you go on strike to keep near-international from happening?