SWAPA might like SWA proposal

[dh82dvr]

so a gain in seniority, upgrades at the expense of AT FO's is not good enough? Oh wait but the AT FO's get a big raise, so not getting weekends or holidays off anymore is a trade off. You might be able to put a value on these things with your family, but I don't.

uke:

 

[Lear70]

6% seniority boost vice 40-50% pay raise and our work rules...I shout BS on this rumor from LEAR as well. This would easily push a 60% no vote from SWA and is no where near what our Union has said would pass the LITMUS test. We will wait and see.

Hey, no worries. Everyone has their personal "happy point", and it's not my place to tell anyone else theirs. You may be right about the SWA vote, maybe not, not my place to say, but I don't make the news, I just report it. It's MEC and MC members putting it on our internal board (before they removed it) and I don't think they'd put out deliberately incorrect info, but YMMV.

Lear I heard it would be a 6-8 year upgrade with no growth mode, using the same numbers.

It will be different for every segment of the list. If you're in that top sliver of our F/O's who get integrated with the SWA junior F/O's, maybe 6-8 years from now? (I don't know, I didn't ask) At my seniority, stapled to the bottom and still 200 deep in line from AAI pilots, 10-12 years is what I was told.

 

[waveflyer]

MVdV just emailed all of us to stop with the rumors- there will be plenty of time to debate when the ENTIRE package is presented. It's so predictable that PCL would TRY and torpedo this deal it's not funny. But here's the thing: we, on all sides, are responsible for whether or not we partake and get influenced by him. Waiting sucks, but patience is a virtue.

 

[On Your Six]

Did you guys say there was a no bump and flush policy for the AT captains? Is that for the base, or position and equipment? So, they can remain captains even if their plane is moved out of ATL? Is that true? If so, that would be pretty good.


OYS

 

[jonjuan]

MVdV just emailed all of us to stop with the rumors- there will be plenty of time to debate when the ENTIRE package is presented. It's so predictable that PCL would TRY and torpedo this deal it's not funny.

And yet you continue with the rumors and conspiracies. If it gets voted down by either group, you'll get on here and claim that Karl Rove (aka, PCL) was able to make it happen.

 

[Lear70]

MVdV just emailed all of us to stop with the rumors- there will be plenty of time to debate when the ENTIRE package is presented. It's so predictable that PCL would TRY and torpedo this deal it's not funny. But here's the thing: we, on all sides, are responsible for whether or not we partake and get influenced by him. Waiting sucks, but patience is a virtue.

They haven't emailed us yet, but our internal message board is so deep in topics on all this (about 9 concurrently running threads), our pilots probably wouldn't listen even if the MEC put out an email to try and squash it.

That said, I'll shut up about it. Sorry, was just trying to dispel a few rumors.

p.s. for those trying to PM me, I cleaned out my inbox, thx.

Edit: The letter from MV and KG to "shut it" just hit our FLiCA e-docs about 10 minutes ago.

 

[slaquer5]

Did you guys say there was a no bump and flush policy for the AT captains? Is that for the base, or position and equipment? So, they can remain captains even if their plane is moved out of ATL? Is that true? If so, that would be pretty good.


OYS

I get it. If I was at Delta i would be concerned also . SWA coming into ATL is going to be like when SWA started Florida .


That did not go to well for dal

 

[Fly4$]

6% seniority boost vice 40-50% pay raise and our work rules...I shout BS on this rumor from LEAR as well. This would easily push a 60% no vote from SWA and is no where near what our Union has said would pass the LITMUS test. We will wait and see.

Just to put things in perspective: Stapling ALL AAI FO's would result in a maximum seniority gain for SWA's bottom FO of 24% ,and 0% gain for the #1 guy, making the average gain 12%.

Stapling the entire AAI pilot group consequently would result in an average gain of 6%. This is not even taking into account any fences. Let's keep the expectations realistic. AAI just doesn't have enough pilots to really make a serious dent in SWA's seniority numbers.

 

[ASADFW7]

I would hold off boasting about flying into ATL will the red belly baby gups are headed over spondivits.

 

[jball2]

I Will! If they'll have me!

 

[Ace McCoy]

MVdV just emailed all of us to stop with the rumors- there will be plenty of time to debate when the ENTIRE package is presented. It's so predictable that PCL would TRY and torpedo this deal it's not funny. But here's the thing: we, on all sides, are responsible for whether or not we partake and get influenced by him. Waiting sucks, but patience is a virtue.

It is not PCL leaking and trying to torpedo the deal. He said he is out of the country now. I know a ton of details and none of the came from or even through PCL.

There are others trying for the ol torpedo though. Don't want to comment further.

 

[Ace McCoy]

How many did you guys hire after 9/27/10?

Approx 50 from what I've heard

 

[Empennage]

I would hold off boasting about flying into ATL will the red belly baby gups are headed over spondivits.

Open till 4 am!

 

[waveflyer]

It is not PCL leaking and trying to torpedo the deal. He said he is out of the country now. I know a ton of details and none of the came from or even through PCL.

There are others trying for the ol torpedo though. Don't want to comment further.

Fair enough.
That's a good place to be. I'll be finding my own Mai tai's here now. Good luck all.

 

[Lear70]

Approx 50 from what I've heard

71 if you include the class that was already in school and not yet online. I don't think those guys were included in the snapshot date since they weren't online and current.

There were 3 classes of roughly 25 each, one in August starting with #1,671, one in Sep, and one in Oct if memory serves, finishing up at T.R. at Sen. # 1742.

That according to my sen list as of 1/1/11.

 

[Lear70]

Fair enough.
That's a good place to be. I'll be finding my own Mai tai's here now. Good luck all.

Correct, he's on a cruise and has internet access but no phone (at least, not at cruise ship phone rates).

 

[Daddy]

Heh heh... yeah, it's a lot of info and I don't have the exact ratios, but as explained to me, it works a little like this:

Your top pre-93 hires are on top and untouched.

Our #1 guy starts just below them and it's ratio'd pretty evenly for the '93 hires and our senior CA's (I don't know how many), but we end up with the top half of our CA's ratio'd in with your post-'93 CA's.

The next half of our CA's get ratio'd in with your top F/O's.

The top 150 of our F/O's get ratio'd in with your BOTTOM F/O's.

The remaining 650 AAI F/O's get stapled to the bottom of the pre-9/27 list, starting about year 6 F/O for us and lower.

Your post-9/27 new-hires are stapled below them. Our post-9/27 new hires are stapled at the very bottom.

Those are VERY rough numbers, but present a good broad picture of how it went. The average seniority gain on a combined list on the SWA side is 6%, the average seniority loss on the AAI side is 22%, with spikes among our senior CA's (up to 35%) and senior F/O's (up to 28% - mine is a 26% relative seniority loss).

edit: my first post said our "least amount" of seniority loss was 22%. It's not, that's the AVERAGE seniority loss. They said something about our mid-level CA's take the smallest loss, but I don't remember the exact number, sorry.

Isn't this essentially DOH minus 4 years? What's different and why would it change from a DOH minus 4 years convention if based roughly on that?

 

[Nindiri]

I can't tell you how comforting it is to know that KG and the Gang of Five are on the same page regarding this agreement.

 

[MRW]

so a gain in seniority, upgrades at the expense of AT FO's is not good enough? Oh wait but the AT FO's get a big raise, so not getting weekends or holidays off anymore is a trade off. You might be able to put a value on these things with your family, but I don't.

uke:

Im not saying there isnt a price to pay for AT F.O.s but coming to SWA FO pay is the same as you upgrading to Capt at AT...you would have to work weekends when you upgrade there as well. You will get your "UPGRADE" when this deal is inked and then you will get your second "UPGRADE" when you move to the left seat here. If we look at it this way instead of worring which hand pushes the throttles up then you have to admit I have a point.

 

[ATLplt]

Your post-9/27 new-hires are stapled below them. Our post-9/27 new hires are stapled at the very bottom.

Actually, the last guys on the ISL are native SWA pilots. The AirTran guys hired after 9/27 were hired before the last SWA pilots hired this year. (Not that it really makes that much of a difference.)

 

[jonjuan]

Actually, the last guys on the ISL are native SWA pilots.

I thought the ISL still had to be voted on.

 

[Old Crow]

The sad thing about this is that my SWA neighbors in ATL are being hosed. I bet they'd give up some seniority for the ATL base...
Greedy seniorty integration and an ATL fence off is pretty short sighted for swapa. It'd be much better to fairly integrate and remove all fixes.
Why in the hell would you fence off the base that has the greatest potential for growth?
This is no different that inheritance.. Grab what's yours and grab what's not yours while you throw the family under the bus.
Good job guys.

 

[RLAblows]

If we look at it this way instead of worring which hand pushes the throttles up then you have to admit I have a point.

You have to use your hands to push the throttles up?

 

[waveflyer]

And yet you continue with the rumors and conspiracies. If it gets voted down by either group, you'll get on here and claim that Karl Rove (aka, PCL) was able to make it happen.

Mr Norton,
I'm not throwing stones in a glass house. I've indulged and written here my own thoughts on the SLI- guilty- but most have been just addressing attitudes and life/ culture/schedule/pay/etc at WN. And now it's not a conspiracy that a misinformation campaign prelude to a Vote No campaign has begun on the AT side. It's happening, friends there have told me, and Lear was posting to give a clearer picture than the torpedo artists.

I'm sincerely amazed at our management and respective NCs. It sounds like theyve come up with something that wont make anyone jump for joy- but that both sides can live with. Which is utterly amazing. The only comment I'm making now is to repeat what they're saying: give them the time to present it to us the right way, so we all make an informed decision and not a prejudicial one.
This management team is unbelievable at managing people- give them a chance to work their magic.

I like the Karl Rove line. If PCL hasn't been involved, I apologize. I have a friend there who back him militantly, and friends who don't trust him in this swa deal. One said he was involved with the leak and since I think he's proven to have an ALPA agenda more than an AT agenda and has been a SWA hater for 4+ years... It seemed to make sense. I won't be surprised if he is- from his "Dr Evil" cruise ship- but I don't know. I'm sure he won't be shy when it's time.

I will reiterate that if someone has violated non disclosure agreements and/or leaked premature, prejudicial items in the deal-- that ought to be a fireable offense.

 

[dh82dvr]

Im not saying there isnt a price to pay for AT F.O.s but coming to SWA FO pay is the same as you upgrading to Capt at AT...you would have to work weekends when you upgrade there as well. You will get your "UPGRADE" when this deal is inked and then you will get your second "UPGRADE" when you move to the left seat here. If we look at it this way instead of worring which hand pushes the throttles up then you have to admit I have a point.

I will agree that the pay increase is similar to an upgrade. However, if you lose 3-4 years of seniority, will I hold weekends off? holidays? like I do now. I will have to wait to see the whole thing.

 

[swa737-700]

The sad thing about this is that my SWA neighbors in ATL are being hosed. I bet they'd give up some seniority for the ATL base...
Greedy seniorty integration and an ATL fence off is pretty short sighted for swapa. It'd be much better to fairly integrate and remove all fixes.
Why in the hell would you fence off the base that has the greatest potential for growth?
This is no different that inheritance.. Grab what's yours and grab what's not yours while you throw the family under the bus.
Good job guys.

A fence will usually protect a certain number of captain and f/o slots, in this case for the AT folks (I am still wondering how folks already know that a fence is part of this AIP?!). IF there is growth in ATL, obviously those new slots will be filled by anyone who the company displaces or who bids for the new positions. The only unknown would be how seniority would work in a fenced domicile. In the past, the fenced party would enjoy domicile seniority over a non-fenced pilot even if their system seniority was lower. In this way, the fenced group still retains the QOL they were accustomed to prior to the fence/integration.

 

[Tripower455]

A fence will usually protect a certain number of captain and f/o slots, in this case for the AT folks (I am still wondering how folks already know that a fence is part of this AIP?!). IF there is growth in ATL, obviously those new slots will be filled by anyone who the company displaces or who bids for the new positions. The only unknown would be how seniority would work in a fenced domicile. In the past, the fenced party would enjoy domicile seniority over a non-fenced pilot even if their system seniority was lower. In this way, the fenced group still retains the QOL they were accustomed to prior to the fence/integration.

I'm far more worried about MCO in this regard....... We've had guys playing the forced displacement game for about 4 years now. It would suck if they weren't protected too.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

I will agree that the pay increase is similar to an upgrade. However, if you lose 3-4 years of seniority, will I hold weekends off? holidays? like I do now. I will have to wait to see the whole thing.

There are way too many unknowns for anyone to intelligently predict how things will end up for you. It will depend on your base and aircraft and what happens to that base and aircraft and how quickly. No matter how this is structured the "bottom guy" from this list will have 300 below him due to the new hires already on property. Thats roughly 4 percent system seniority.
Bid line quality is of course predicted more on domicile seniority. At less than 10 percent domicile seniority I have been able to hold partial or full weekends off on reserve with either Sunday starts or Wed starts. No trip or reserve block here is orginally built longer than 4 days. The only way you end up with longer is overlap. Reserve pays the greater of 6 tfp/day or what you fly during the month.

 

[Lear70]

Mr Norton,
I'm not throwing stones in a glass house. I've indulged and written here my own thoughts on the SLI- guilty- but most have been just addressing attitudes and life/ culture/schedule/pay/etc at WN. And now it's not a conspiracy that a misinformation campaign prelude to a Vote No campaign has begun on the AT side. It's happening, friends there have told me, and Lear was posting to give a clearer picture than the torpedo artists.

I'm sincerely amazed at our management and respective NCs. It sounds like theyve come up with something that wont make anyone jump for joy- but that both sides can live with. Which is utterly amazing. The only comment I'm making now is to repeat what they're saying: give them the time to present it to us the right way, so we all make an informed decision and not a prejudicial one.
This management team is unbelievable at managing people- give them a chance to work their magic.

I like the Karl Rove line. If PCL hasn't been involved, I apologize. I have a friend there who back him militantly, and friends who don't trust him in this swa deal. One said he was involved with the leak and since I think he's proven to have an ALPA agenda more than an AT agenda and has been a SWA hater for 4+ years... It seemed to make sense. I won't be surprised if he is- from his "Dr Evil" cruise ship- but I don't know. I'm sure he won't be shy when it's time.

I will reiterate that if someone has violated non disclosure agreements and/or leaked premature, prejudicial items in the deal-- that ought to be a fireable offense.

Because I lead the "Vote No" campaign on T.A. 1 4+ years ago, I've been getting several emails/phone calls to see if I would be interested in joining the "Vote No" campaign they're starting for this (I'm not - we haven't even SEEN the actual language yet... hell, it hasn't even been DRAFTED, just the bulletpoints, people need to chill).

That said, PCL is not in that group, nor is Ty (although neither of them are thrilled with the seniority hit...). I mean, let's face it, no one here thought they'd lose that much relative seniority - it's a shock and it's taking time to adjust.

Please don't read this as an insult to the value of a Southwest career. It's not. It's just that the amount of seniority our Merger Committee conceded is much more than even the attorneys thought we'd ever see worst-case as well as being far worse than any seniority loss arbitration in recent history and we just weren't expecting it. People need time to adjust and to get more information when the AIP is formalized with language.

 

[Daddy]

Because I lead the "Vote No" campaign on T.A. 1 4+ years ago, I've been getting several emails/phone calls to see if I would be interested in joining the "Vote No" campaign they're starting for this (I'm not - we haven't even SEEN the actual language yet... hell, it hasn't even been DRAFTED, just the bulletpoints, people need to chill).

That's the most rational thing said here yet on this...I cant believe there is a vote no campaign before the thing is even drafted.