SWAPA Comments about 717

[ATLplt]

I hope they are not using our retirements to help offset of the remainder of the airplanes. I will be pissed if so. Anybody have any insight on this? Could it happen. We have about avg 300 hundred retirements from 2013-2015.

That's exactly what I was thinking as well. I'd be pissed too.

 

[scoreboardII]

I hope they are not using our retirements to help offset of the remainder of the airplanes. I will be pissed if so. Anybody have any insight on this? Could it happen. We have about avg 300 hundred retirements from 2013-2015.

that is exactly whats happenning, using retirements to justify being 300 pilots fat.

 

[fam62c]

At the very least we at Airtran need SWA pay now and possible revisit of the SLI. If not then things could get real ugly quick.

I don't think that any of that is going to happen. They have a deal that they believe they have complied with (nowhere does it say the 717 could not be disposed of) and they know that even though the AT pilots may be unhappy about this (the AT pilots have been unhappy about one thing or another for years) they will come to work and do their jobs well as they have always done, what else can they do? If they do anything additional for the AT pilots the SW pilots will want something of equal or greater value on their side, SW isn't going to go there.

It's a bad situation that is getting worse for the AT pilots but they are stuck with it at this point. Everything that SW management has done during this process has been a cold, hard business decision and that will continue until the last AT employees have crossed over the partition and AT is no more. The CEO is worried what the shareholders think, not what the AT employees think. AT pilots are on the same list, doing the same job and the revenue all flows to the same corporation but AT is AT and SW is SW and that's that. This ship has sailed and there are no consolation prizes at this point, I don't think anything of additional value is available to folks on the AT side. The only question now is how much worse it will get at AT over the next three years or so while there still is an AT.

 

[fam62c]

Thanks, that means a lot. Really.

Snap-up to the Pay Rates that were in AIP 1 effective immediately and a re-bid of the flush bid would be my suggestions.

Right now, contractually-speaking, Southwest does not have the option to bring people straight across the partition to 737 F/O if their equipment bid was 717. If they do, you'll end up with a grievance from every single person senior to them with a 737 F/O bid in place for the pay difference of SWA pay.

Although there is an allowance in SL10 for what happens if there is no 717 to bid into upon arrival at Southwest, the way our LOA is set up, even though it allows them to pull from whatever seat, aircraft, and base they want to come to Southwest, it does so based on the original seniority-based flush bid. Knowing that there is no 717 to bid into at Southwest, not re-bidding the flush bid will result in them KNOWINGLY pulling people out of seniority order from the 717 going to an award (737 SWA F/O) that someone senior to them at AirTran bid and held.

Knowing that they'll have to figure out something for that provision, I'm patiently waiting to hear more information, knowing that there's other portions of the 717 deal that are still contingent on passing (Delta vote, other vendor approval, etc) to where this thing may still fall apart and even if it doesn't, it will be some time before Southwest has to negotiate changes.

I'm not expecting any news in any kind of hurry. Just relaxing, enjoying my Memorial Day Weekend, and urging my fellow AirTran AND Southwest brethren to do the same. Can't fix anything and getting irritated at each other is kind of pointless, since no one on here is responsible for what's going on.

We're all just pilots; be cool to each other. :beer:

There are a number of problems here that may result in grievances depending on how they handle this. The right seat of the 717 was supposed to hold all of the most junior pilots but only some were moved over from the 737 while pilots junior to them are still in the 737. If the movement from 737 to 717 stops then those 717 FO's will be more junior than they should have been been in the 717 because the pilots who were supposed to be moved in below them are not being moved over. That means that some pilots will be on reserve longer, get worse schedules than they should get and worse vacation slots because their relative seniority in the 717 is not as good as the flush bid award would have indicated, a severe QOL hit for many 717 FO's near the bottom. The reverse is also true; now some 737 FO's who bid 717 FO are stuck on the 737 where they have worse relative seniority than they would have on the 717 if they could move over.

If they just stop moving pilots between the fleets now everything changes and relative seniority in equipment gets distorted. The whole flush bid accomplished nothing, it just screwed things up more and wasted money on training. The fact that the whole bid was based on a detailed transition plan that has now been thrown out the window means that everybody based their bid on bad information.

 

[THEPRFCT10]

It wasn't if you bid the 717 like a lot of us did. That bid was for quality of life, keeping your captain seat, or maintaining your bidding/vacation seniority. Since all of those now seem to being going away, rendering the bid useless, show us the effing money. I'll gladly trade any extra money for seniority though...which ain't gonna happen.

Every one of us (AT) is likely going to make LESS $$ this year because of the cut in hours, in spite of contractual pay increases. Unreal...

I feel for you guys... sorta...forgive me if I'm wrong but were you guys not almost ready to strike before the acquisition? Someone will always be worse off than you.

 

[PCL_128]

I feel for you guys... sorta...forgive me if I'm wrong but were you guys not almost ready to strike before the acquisition? Someone will always be worse off than you.

A strike was a very low probability. Without the acquisition, reaching a TA with slightly better money and a few better work rules within a few months was the most likely outcome. Most of the deal was done before the merger was announced.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

I feel for you guys... sorta...forgive me if I'm wrong but were you guys not almost ready to strike before the acquisition? Someone will always be worse off than you.

I don't see your point, should a pilot group not try to better themselves simply because another is worse off? Have you ever subscribed to your theory?

 

[737tanker]

Everyone talking about there being 36 717s still on the AT side after 1/1/2015 needs to read all the letters again. They say the aircraft will go to delta 3 a month starting middle of next year.No where does it say when and how meany will be taken off line. However, all the letters do say the transition of pilots will continue as planned. One states that transition will be complete by 2015.

There is a letter from the VP of SWA FltOps to all SWA pilots that states that 16 717s will go in the 2nd half of 2013, 36 in 2014, and 36 in 2015.

 

[redflyer65]

There is a letter from the VP of SWA FltOps to all SWA pilots that states that 16 717s will go in the 2nd half of 2013, 36 in 2014, and 36 in 2015.

I had to double check, but this is correct.

 

[Citrusflyer]

There is a letter from the VP of SWA FltOps to all SWA pilots that states that 16 717s will go in the 2nd half of 2013, 36 in 2014, and 36 in 2015.

Well, that's about 216 Captains carrying over beyond 2015. Add to that any hiccup in the International res. system and you could have a sizable amount of 737's on the Airtran side after 2015 (up to 36 to 40 aircraft- another 240 or so Capt slots could be possible). I'm thinking Mr. Chase should have done some math prior to his "victory lap".

I'd think SWAPA would start thinking long term now, but what do I know ...

 

[fam62c]

There is a letter from the VP of SWA FltOps to all SWA pilots that states that 16 717s will go in the 2nd half of 2013, 36 in 2014, and 36 in 2015.

What happens after 1/1/15 when the pliots on those remaining 717's can exercise their system seniority and leave the aircraft to fill vacancies created by retirements elsewhere in the SW system? Nobody in the 717 now will have an equipment lock by 1/1/15.

 

[Speedtape]

At least you don't have to deal with Regional Jets. :angryfire

From your profile:
A/C Flown: EMB-145, DC-9, A320


You are a tool!

 

[NuGuy]

Guys,

I wouldn't sweat it. Judging from the reactions at alpha papa charlie, DAL isnt going to pass the TA.

Problem solved.

Nu

 

[MILF Hunter]

At the very least we at Airtran need SWA pay now and possible revisit of the SLI. If not then things could get real ugly quick.

I really don't intend to sound like an a-hole here, but this just wouldn't be right.

Regardless of the events that led to the demise of the first SLI and the completion of the second SLI, Airtran pilots traded a loss of pay and protections for better seniority. SWA pilots were able to capitalize on the lack of protections, but at the expense of less seniority gain.

My point is that if money were more important than seniority, y'all could have had it. However, that would have meant more seniority for our side. Y'all paid for your seniority gain. To revisit and give youl more money now should be countered with us asking for more seniority in exchange.

I realize that it doesn't harm me if you make our pay today or in three years, but you paid for more seniority. Period.

Now...as far as revesiting the SLI, our airline is dumping 2/3 of your fleet. Are you sure you want to revisit that?

 

[humveedriver]

SWA knew they were going to dump the 717s while we were negotiating the SLI. From the time SWA announced the purchase in Sept 2010 to the summer of 2011 fuel prices went up 48 percent and they changed their tune about the airplane. SWA was able to renegotiate the leases with Boeing saving approxiemently 30 million dollars annually. I believe the outcome of the MEC vote on the AT side would have been much different if GK had just been upfront about the acceleration of 717 retirements. I remember reading reports of how GK was super mad after the MEC turned down the first offer. Now it's a little more obvious why, as that complicated his plan to get of the airplane. We had to have a nonsense flush bid ,retrain x number of crews while he found the buyer. Wasting time and money. Speaking of which. If the majority of AT 737 pilots haven't started to transition until 2014, how much sense will it make to take the most senior guys who will go last and then retrain them for Capt in 2015 when their global seniority can hold it? Oh, and about our strike vote. 98 percent yes. Do you think 98 percent of us are greedy little ALPA terrorists who just want to sit at home and get paid for it? Hardly my man. Just trying to get our company to be more like yours. Our management was not like your management. Look at Virgins pay. It takes time and commitment to get a decent contract. It took you guys close to 40 years. You guys always throw that in our face, but i say we were fighting the good fight.

 

[humveedriver]

Guys,

I wouldn't sweat it. Judging from the reactions at alpha papa charlie, DAL isnt going to pass the TA.

Problem solved.

Nu

Telling your buddies the TA is a POS and you are not voting for it is airline SOP. Then somehow 55 percent vote yes and no one admits to voting for it. If GK wants the plane gone it will happen. He can park them and still achieve his goals of single fleet type (mx costs, training and equipment/crew swaps).

 

[Just thinking]

"Regardless of the events that led to the demise of the first SLI and the completion of the second SLI, Airtran pilots traded a loss of pay and protections for better seniority. SWA pilots were able to capitalize on the lack of protections, but at the expense of less seniority gain."

Yeah that meteoric jump from 3.5 years loss to 3 years was what FAT pilots were shooting for. FAT pilots are used to being screwed over by their union, their management and now we are getting used to getting screwed over by the management lead by gk. Now everything is being structured to bum rush the captain vacancies to ensure the a minimal amount of FAT pilots cross the partition as Captains. Chase's letter is a tell all to the way that the FAT pilots are viewed by their RSW counterparts. Not feeling the LUV from any dealings with the company that embraces "the golden rule." Lip service at best.

 

[THEPRFCT10]

I don't see your point, should a pilot group not try to better themselves simply because another is worse off? Have you ever subscribed to your theory?

All I'm saying is that you can't have your cake and eat it too. I think that's how the saying goes. I, along with many other SWA JR guys got screwed by all this and as hard as it may be, we need to try and find the good out of all this. I for one am just hoping in the "near" future we all can look back and see the good (and benefits) from the crap that's going on. Sorry if I offended you, it was unintentional.

 

[ASADFW7]

There is no commentary that can capture the mix of perspectives that the B717 going away may bring to either side, as it hasn't happened yet. Every time something is going to happen a certain way, something else happens to change the outcome. All I am doing is trying to hang on. Perhaps something will change again to move the storm clouds away, at least there are a few retirements to distract from the impact along the way later this year.

 

[EntertheCentury]

I'm a mid seniority SWA FO. And I understand the Airtran anger.

But consider MY perspective: my company forced me into a seniority integration with 1700+ pilots (vice organic growth), then decided they didn't want 2/3 of their airplanes.

I'm pissed too. But not at you guys. Nor should you be pissed at me.

Smart guy he is!