SWAPA Comments about 717

[scoreboardII]

And the employees will once again be paying the bill.

SWA single engine taxi's?

 

[SXMp2c]

I could piss and moan about how unfair it is that original SWA guys paid for a type

Haha,

You are just upset someone will be flying for SWA without having to pay for their own training.

 

[Tweet-a-Lishus]

Fletch, you guys brought no seats. I seem to remember your ass was bought! Get over it. You guys voted SL9 down, now live with it! This hasn't been real great for us either.

 

[texman]

I tend to agree, and this is what I've been telling people who are worried about furloughs. But some of them respond with "yeah, but SWA doesn't really see us as their employees." And frankly, that's a valid argument. We've consistently been treated as outsiders, not as SWA employees. So, would SWA have as much hesitation in getting rid of us as they would a "real" SWA pilot? I don't know.

I can see where you might be coming from. Put the business decisions aside that SWA makes and realize that the people of AT are more important than you think. The key you have to realize is your seniority is tied to those decisions. Business decisions. Yes it is unfournate, but we can't really get upset. What would you guys like? Keep the 717's and hurt the company because it doesn't make money? Or try to see the bigger picture. It is hard for y'all to see this side of the fence, which I understand. AT peeps are valued. It just sucks that are seniority is tied to the business.

 

[texman]

Not quite.

SWA management asked our MEC to be in the crew room for the announcement of the event that they claimed was merely a rumor. The MEC declined and offered the CIRP team instead.

GK never said it was a rumor, but said he did not comment on rumors. It's business. He can't let the competitors know what SWA strategically is doing.

 

[humveedriver]

GK never said it was a rumor, but said he did not comment on rumors. It's business. He can't let the competitors know what SWA strategically is doing.

He didn't sublease the 717s to China. I think his competitors had a good idea as to what the future of the 717 was. He should have given his future employees a much clearer picture. A second deal that says all captains will be on the 717 appeared to be a compromise between labor groups, not a "I'm subleasing the 717s to the first company I can" type move.

 

[fletch717]

I can see where you might be coming from. Put the business decisions aside that SWA makes and realize that the people of AT are more important than you think. The key you have to realize is your seniority is tied to those decisions. Business decisions. Yes it is unfournate, but we can't really get upset. What would you guys like? Keep the 717's and hurt the company because it doesn't make money? Or try to see the bigger picture. It is hard for y'all to see this side of the fence, which I understand. AT peeps are valued. It just sucks that are seniority is tied to the business.

Texman, thank you for the post,you make a good point. Most SWA pilots don't realize that SWA has a cost problem. We all want everybody to make a decent wage. But like the legacies of old, you have rampers and flight attendants that make double what most of the industry has gone to. SWA will struggle in the comming years to find its way again and I think there is going to be more pain to come. SWA is mired with layers of committees, antiquated technology and lacks the ability to adjust quickly to this changing environment. The 717 is profitable, but not the way SWA runs.

 

[texman]

He didn't sublease the 717s to China. I think his competitors had a good idea as to what the future of the 717 was. He should have given his future employees a much clearer picture. A second deal that says all captains will be on the 717 appeared to be a compromise between labor groups, not a "I'm subleasing the 717s to the first company I can" type move.

More or less you see what I mean. I do see the biding frustration. My friend just ran into the new hire (AT) guy and said he has had a great new hire experience.

 

[737tanker]

He should have given his future employees a much clearer picture.

Gary doesn't even do that with his current employees, and it is something that he learned from Herb. As an example when the strong rumor was that SWA was going to buy Morris, FltOPs management came into a Recurrent Ground school and said that Herb had told them there is no way that SWA is going to buy Morris. After lunch they came back to the class and told them that Herb had just announced that SWA had just bought Morris. So as I said Gary is just doing what he was taught by Herb. The difference is that Herb would make you feel good about it.

 

[texman]

Tanker is exactly right !

 

[Uppercrust]

Fletch, you guys brought no seats. I seem to remember your ass was bought! Get over it. You guys voted SL9 down, now live with it! This hasn't been real great for us either.

Jackass!!

 

[fletch717]

Fletch, you guys brought no seats. I seem to remember your ass was bought! Get over it. You guys voted SL9 down, now live with it! This hasn't been real great for us either.

Gee, I can't wait to babysit you from the right seat. I'm sure you will tell me all about your military days, and how if just one of your three exwives would realize what a great guy you are you wouldn't have to fly 95 hours a month to pay them, dick.

 

[THEPRFCT10]

Fletch, you guys brought no seats. I seem to remember your ass was bought! Get over it. You guys voted SL9 down, now live with it! This hasn't been real great for us either.

Hey guys. Tweet could have probably said this more tactfully, but the fact of the matter is he's right and truth hurts. I'm tired of hearing the term merger, it was an acquisition and nothing less. We all know there is a difference. I am staring at a 20 year upgrade in the face but there's nothing you or I can do about it except hope that things will work out. After this, I have approximately 1300 extra pilots above me. Getting displaced as a result of this is what concerns me the most. We are all now on the same team... pilots, trying to support our families. Good luck to us all.

-Ten

 

[humveedriver]

Hey guys. Tweet could have probably said this more tactfully, but the fact of the matter is he's right and truth hurts. I'm tired of hearing the term merger, it was an acquisition and nothing less. We all know there is a difference. I am staring at a 20 year upgrade in the face but there's nothing you or I can do about it except hope that things will work out. After this, I have approximately 1300 extra pilots above me. Getting displaced as a result of this is what concerns me the most. We are all now on the same team... pilots, trying to support our families. Good luck to us all.

-Ten

I actually agree. Imagine if GK tried to sell the whole I'm buying 52 airplanes (AT's 737s) with about 100 cheap options AND taking all the pilots too. How does that plan sound to you guys? What? Worse than Frontier? No question he had to mislead both sides to get this done. There is nothing merger about this deal. The cleansing has already begun. Sorry for the negative souding posts in advance. As i said before, my moving forward clock just got reset. Time will fix our current probems as long as GK keeps us off the rocks or oil doesn't run us aground.

 

[madjack]

No question he had to mislead both sides to get this done.

Our NC/SWAPA is telling us the AAI side was aware that the 717s could go away at any time...

 

[Kharma Police]

No question he had to mislead both sides to get this done.

Our NC/SWAPA is telling us the AAI side was aware that the 717s could go away at any time...

I believe it was always a possibility that SLI 9 had accounted for, the whole captain retention slot thingy. Big Sis, Slick, Chuckle Head and the other 4 geniuses in our union I guess couldn't comprehend that.

 

[fam62c]

Hey guys. Tweet could have probably said this more tactfully, but the fact of the matter is he's right and truth hurts. I'm tired of hearing the term merger, it was an acquisition and nothing less. We all know there is a difference. I am staring at a 20 year upgrade in the face but there's nothing you or I can do about it except hope that things will work out. After this, I have approximately 1300 extra pilots above me. Getting displaced as a result of this is what concerns me the most. We are all now on the same team... pilots, trying to support our families. Good luck to us all.

-Ten

I'm so tired of this BS, point to some examples of mergers in the industry where there was not an aquiring party? Now tell me about the "difference" between a merger and an aquisition "we all know" about. Pretty much every merger has been an aquisition, the terms are interchangeable.

Call it what you like, this was a combination of two solvent, unionized major airlines flying comparable equipment and the SW pilots got the best seniority deal anybody has every gotten in that situation, it was unprecedented. Your management team pointed a gun at the AT guys and got you a great deal, good for you, what more do you want? A bunch more upgrades so a lot of your senior FO's will upgrade well before they ever would have without AT?..........you got that too and I'll bet those guys won't be complaining when they cash their CA paychecks.

 

[madjack]

AAI seniority ceased to exists the minute the airline was bought...that is a fact...every airline that SWA acquired prior to AAI, the pilots of the acquired airline started at the bottom...AA screws STL (and the TWA pilots) and we get a law...SWA buys AAI and mgmt and both unions overwhelmingly approve a SLI that gives former AAI pilots seniority on the SWA MSL...many AAI pilots go ahead of SWA pilots who interviewed, got typed and started at the bottom at SWA (some of those pilots were former AAI CPs and FOs)...so who is getting "screwed"?

 

[FlyinGuy]

Sniff....sniff....

It is over guys! I don't care where you were before the "announcement". The deal is done and the list is what it is. Many AT guys feel slighted and many SWA f/o's feel the same way. It sucks!!! The question is what type of person are you? Do you have any character? What are you going to do when you are conversing or flying with someone from the other side?

We are all pawns in this game. Hopefully GK and his minions can get their act together and make this a great place for all of us.

 

[scoreboardII]

hopefully the pilots will realize we need to stick together cause it's only going to get worse once Gary realizes he screwed the pooch overpaying for his misadventure. Then he'll come asking us to pay for that mistake, above and beyond what we already have, to wit, we must stand firm and say FUGK.

 

[THEPRFCT10]

I'm so tired of this BS, point to some examples of mergers in the industry where there was not an aquiring party? Now tell me about the "difference" between a merger and an aquisition "we all know" about. Pretty much every merger has been an aquisition, the terms are interchangeable.

Call it what you like, this was a combination of two solvent, unionized major airlines flying comparable equipment and the SW pilots got the best seniority deal anybody has every gotten in that situation, it was unprecedented. Your management team pointed a gun at the AT guys and got you a great deal, good for you, what more do you want? A bunch more upgrades so a lot of your senior FO's will upgrade well before they ever would have without AT?..........you got that too and I'll bet those guys won't be complaining when they cash their CA paychecks.

"Unprecedented!??? ", "... Best seniority deal...!??? " I beg to differ. I gained ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FROM SL10. As did many JR SWA guys like myself. I was willing to risk arbitration just because I could not agree to screw our JR guys. I was never convinced we would go to arbitration. Naive? Maybe, but it was a risk I was willing to take. Merger vs Acquisition? Whatever man, GK very well could have just taken the assets, ATL, etc. and ultimately dissolved Air Tran. We'll never know if he would've really done that but that's not the point. Many of us (SWA & AAI alike) got screwed the day GK decided to do this, now he makes another decision and many AT guys are getting "screwed". Sorry, it sucks for us "all". It's hard not to be bitter about this, but we have to hope it'll be okay.

 

[Old Crow]

Airtran emotion can really can be summed up like this. I was excited, I was then educated, I was disappointed, I overcame, I was renewed, I bought the Flag tie from our new CP in ATL, I wore it, I got SC's email. I tossed my new tie in the trash...

 

[THEPRFCT10]

Airtran emotion can really can be summed up like this. I was excited, I was then educated, I was disappointed, I overcame, I was renewed, I bought the Flag tie from our new CP in ATL, I wore it, I got SC's email. I tossed my new tie in the trash...

It sucks all around...sorry.

 

[freightdogfred]

Correct me if I'm wrong....but does not the 500 series B737 have about the same amount of seats as the 717? How can this old airframe be more economical to operate than the 717?

The 717 may be a white elephant, but I'd be willing to bet Big D got some sweetheart lease rates. They got plenty-o-Douglas parts layin around, so good for them. Rumor is GK is payin them to take the airplanes. Who the hell knows, who the hell cares.

 

[freightdogfred]

Lets all hope when the 717's are transferred...no WN pilot is harmed.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Correct me if I'm wrong....but does not the 500 series B737 have about the same amount of seats as the 717? How can this old airframe be more economical to operate than the 717?

The 717 may be a white elephant, but I'd be willing to bet Big D got some sweetheart lease rates. They got plenty-o-Douglas parts layin around, so good for them. Rumor is GK is payin them to take the airplanes. Who the hell knows, who the hell cares.

If you're really looking for a serious answer in this, here it is: The 737-500 is more economcal to operate than the 717 because they are not leased. They are long since paid for. As long as the maintenance costs don't exceed operating revenue (so far), then they make money. And since we have the world's largest stockpile of 737 classic parts, and similar maintenance schedules to the rest of our planes, it'll be that way for a while.

Bubba

 

[freightdogfred]

Not to flame, but which model of those classics is the one that peels back the roof?

 

[redflyer65]

300. They've been re-crowned. The ones that had issues.

 

[PropPiedmont]

Correct me if I'm wrong....but does not the 500 series B737 have about the same amount of seats as the 717? How can this old airframe be more economical to operate than the 717?

The 717 may be a white elephant, but I'd be willing to bet Big D got some sweetheart lease rates. They got plenty-o-Douglas parts layin around, so good for them. Rumor is GK is payin them to take the airplanes. Who the hell knows, who the hell cares.

Don't worry, the first 4 of the 25 -500s will be retired by July. All -500s should be retired before the first 717 lease is transferred.

513 & 519 depart 6/19, 501 & 503 gone 6/24.

 

[FIREMAN]

If you're really looking for a serious answer in this, here it is: The 737-500 is more economcal to operate than the 717 because they are not leased. They are long since paid for. As long as the maintenance costs don't exceed operating revenue (so far), then they make money. And since we have the world's largest stockpile of 737 classic parts, and similar maintenance schedules to the rest of our planes, it'll be that way for a while.

Bubba[/QUOT

Actually nine are leased. Form the 10Q

http://filecache.drivetheweb.com/ir1_southwest/408/download/10Q+Filed+4.25.12.pdf