SWAPA Comments about 717

[fletch717]

One day SWAPA will ask us former AT pilots to stand with them in some sort of fight. I won't be there, ever.

 

[AFcitrus]

On a related note apparently being gifted the remaining AirTran captain seats from GK wasn't enough for SWAPA. Word has it SC is attempting to get a side letter that will prevent new SW pilots (former AT) from bidding into a base their seniority affords them while any original SW pilots are displaced through normal monthly base flexing. Effectively, junior pilots would have preferential right of return over senior pilots to any base they once held but can no longer. So much for being SW pilots once we cross the partition. I smell a DFR lawsuit for new SW pilots.

Sorry SC, but this was a part of the SLI agreement that SWAPA voted for and is the only negative that came to SW pilots through the SLI that destroyed AirTran pilots' left seat careers/aspirations. And it primarily hurt junior pilots because SWAPA threw them under the bus so captains wouldn't be harmed and senior FO's would make windfall gains through previously unachievable upgrades. Steve, if you'd like to revisit the agreed upon SLI and make after the fact changes, we'll be happy to take another look at it. But it's going to require an SLI more closely resembling a relative integration. Yea I didn't think you wanted to go there.

Every AirTran pilot needs to know that not only will we be losing significantly more captain seats than agreed upon in the SLI, but that if SC gets his way another hose job will be headed our way. When we do go over the fence our seniority will be meaningless in terms of getting the base we want. Call your reps!!

 

[scoreboardII]

So AT captains are losing their seats and SWA FOs will upgrade into them? Am i understanding this correctly?

Partially, some will. Then any remaining after 2015 will come over as CA as they transition to their 737 CA job. Then, all those who made the pre 2015 transition as FO's (hundreds) will then be next in line to CA. So while this looks bad, it depends on your exact seniority placement and where you are at the 2015 cutoff.

 

[scoreboardII]

On a related note apparently being gifted the remaining AirTran captain seats from GK wasn't enough for SWAPA. Word has it SC is attempting to get a side letter that will prevent new SW pilots (former AT) from bidding into a base their seniority affords them while any original SW pilots are displaced through normal monthly base flexing. Effectively, junior pilots would have preferential right of return over senior pilots to any base they once held but can no longer. So much for being SW pilots once we cross the partition. I smell a DFR lawsuit for new SW pilots.

Sorry SC, but this was a part of the SLI agreement that SWAPA voted for and is the only negative that came to SW pilots through the SLI that destroyed AirTran pilots' left seat careers/aspirations. And it primarily hurt junior pilots because SWAPA threw them under the bus so captains wouldn't be harmed and senior FO's would make windfall gains through previously unachievable upgrades. Steve, if you'd like to revisit the agreed upon SLI and make after the fact changes, we'll be happy to take another look at it. But it's going to require an SLI more closely resembling a relative integration. Yea I didn't think you wanted to go there.

Every AirTran pilot needs to know that not only will we be losing significantly more captain seats than agreed upon in the SLI, but that if SC gets his way another hose job will be headed our way. When we do go over the fence our seniority will be meaningless in terms of getting the base we want. Call your reps!!

This is untrue , that rumor died on the vine, SWA denied RoR. End of story.

 

[ATLplt]

send steve an email, he'll like to hear from you.

[email protected]

Sure, so he can forward the email to the CULTure Gestapo?

 

[AFcitrus]

This is completely an untrue fabrication, that rumor died on the vine, SWA denied RoR. End of story.

Scoreboard,

I'd like to believe you about this being a bad rumor. Could you give a more specific source for SWA denying this? Public denial or back room one. Did SWAPA put out a statement to such? I hope you're right brother.

 

[Dan Roman]

So AT captains are losing their seats and SWA FOs will upgrade into them? Am i understanding this correctly?

.......and, they are saying it's a good thing! amazing

 

[scoreboardII]

Scoreboard,

I'd like to believe you about this being a bad rumor. Could you give a more specific source for SWA denying this? Public denial or back room one. Did SWAPA put out a statement to such? I hope you're right brother.

It's real, it was an issue our youngens fought for during the SLI discussion which was basically dropped and our side feels rather sold down the river for it NOT having been a priority. After the SLI a bunch tried to push the union but they refused citing "SWA said not just no, but heck no".

So it was a thing, but never made out of wishland.

if you have to know, send an email to [email protected] and ask

I'd copy a statement from our forum but the Gestswapo comm commander wiped the forum.

In my opinion SWA has done an excellent job pissing off all 8000 of us.

 

[anewunion]

So why did SWA buy AT ? What assets did they get ?

 

[Dan Roman]

In my opinion SWA has done an excellent job pissing off all 8000 of us.

Probably not the FO's that get the AirTran Captain positions.

 

[scoreboardII]

Probably not the FO's that get the AirTran Captain positions.

How about the FO's who don't make the 2015 cut but would have had till end of lease through 2018-2021 to get into the seat due to those folks staying on the 717? Now, every seat until end of seniority disparity goes AT. It all depends where you are.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Wow, saying that replacing AT Captains seats with SWA f/o's as something to cheer for and "everyone should be happy" is pretty weak, to say the least.
Is that part of the "warrior spirit"

Hey Dan,

For someone who goes on and on about how he doesn't hold any bad feelings about SWA or its pilots, you sure have a hard time restraining yourself when it comes to bad-mouthing, picking, or generally pot-stirring, on every issue dealing with Southwest and its pilots' doings.

Capt Chase was writing to his constituency, which consists of SWAPA pilots, not Airtran ALPA pilots. That's who he represents. That's his job. And right now, a lot of his constituency, especially junior folks, are mad about lack of growth and upgrades. His comment was to THEM, not to Airtran people that he doesn't represent. And it was simply that due to a management decision, SOME of the upgrades that were coming anyway at the expense of Airtran pilots, due to global seniority, appear to be coming somewhat sooner than expected. What did you expect him to say to them?

What if the situation was the opposite, and GK announced we were keeping the 717s even longer, and that former Airtran guys kept those positions longer? (or some other business decision that benefited the Airtran guys) Would you give Airtran ALPA crap if they sold it to their members as good news? Somehow I doubt it.

Regardless, this was a management decision. SWAPA didn't make any sublease deal with Delta. GK did. In a later post, you insinuated that SWAPA "knew this was coming," and further, that it was information that Airtran didn't have. You don't know crap. You seem to have conveniently forgotten that SWAPA had signed off on a previous SLI deal that would have guaranteed former Airtran CAs their seats in perpetuity. The fact is, that managemnent pulls the strings, and both sets of pilots knew that the 717s leaving early was not only a possibility, but something that GK wanted. Certainly you remember Southwest AND Airtran pilots having this very discussion on Flight Info before the SLI was signed. SWAPA pilots wanted that to happen, and Airtran pilots (esp 717 guys) didn't want it to happen. That's the only real difference.

I'm not commenting on the "fairness" or any other way of looking at management's decision. It wasn't up to me, and it personally doesn't affect me much. However, I know that as it sits now, there will be a lot of upset people who ARE affected. Obviously, there will have to be some negotiation (due to the new timeline vs. the one signed in the SLI agreement). Hopefully, something can be done to mitigate the loss of what was expected to those affected Airtran pilots. I don't know what, but I hope something will be worked out.

In the meanwhile, while we see how all this plays out, why don't YOU shut your trap, and stop trying merely to piss off, and to pit two pilot groups against each other, neither of which had any hand in making this decision. Fair enough? Your theory of a SWA-SWAPA conspiracy to screw over the Airtran pilots is pretty stupid--neither the SWAPA pilots nor the ALPA pilots had a say in the decision to get married in the first place, nor in this current decision to get rid of the 717s.

Bubba

 

[ironspud]

Hey Dan,

For someone who goes on and on about how he doesn't hold any bad feelings about SWA or its pilots, you sure have a hard time restraining yourself when it comes to bad-mouthing, picking, or generally pot-stirring, on every issue dealing with Southwest and its pilots' doings.

Capt Chase was writing to his constituency, which consists of SWAPA pilots, not Airtran ALPA pilots. That's who he represents. That's his job. And right now, a lot of his constituency, especially junior folks, are mad about lack of growth and upgrades. His comment was to THEM, not to Airtran people that he doesn't represent. And it was simply that due to a management decision, SOME of the upgrades that were coming anyway at the expense of Airtran pilots, due to global seniority, appear to be coming somewhat sooner than expected. What did you expect him to say to them?

What if the situation was the opposite, and GK announced we were keeping the 717s even longer, and that former Airtran guys kept those positions longer? (or some other business decision that benefited the Airtran guys) Would you give Airtran ALPA crap if they sold it to their members as good news? Somehow I doubt it.

Regardless, this was a management decision. SWAPA didn't make any sublease deal with Delta. GK did. In a later post, you insinuated that SWAPA "knew this was coming," and further, that it was information that Airtran didn't have. You don't know crap. You seem to have conveniently forgotten that SWAPA had signed off on a previous SLI deal that would have guaranteed former Airtran CAs their seats in perpetuity. The fact is, that managemnent pulls the strings, and both sets of pilots knew that the 717s leaving early was not only a possibility, but something that GK wanted. Certainly you remember Southwest AND Airtran pilots having this very discussion on Flight Info before the SLI was signed. SWAPA pilots wanted that to happen, and Airtran pilots (esp 717 guys) didn't want it to happen. That's the only real difference.

I'm not commenting on the "fairness" or any other way of looking at management's decision. It wasn't up to me, and it personally doesn't affect me much. However, I know that as it sits now, there will be a lot of upset people who ARE affected. Obviously, there will have to be some negotiation (due to the new timeline vs. the one signed in the SLI agreement). Hopefully, something can be done to mitigate the loss of what was expected to those affected Airtran pilots. I don't know what, but I hope something will be worked out.

In the meanwhile, while we see how all this plays out, why don't YOU shut your trap, and stop trying merely to piss off, and to pit two pilot groups against each other, neither of which had any hand in making this decision. Fair enough? Your theory of a SWA-SWAPA conspiracy to screw over the Airtran pilots is pretty stupid--neither the SWAPA pilots nor the ALPA pilots had a say in the decision to get married in the first place, nor in this current decision to get rid of the 717s.

Bubba

What a scumbag!

 

[SWA Bubba]

.......and, they are saying it's a good thing! amazing

.......Probably not the FO's that get the AirTran Captain positions.

You just can't help yourself, can you Dan?

You should probably check your lame sarcasm, in that your first comment was actually answered by your second. The SWAPA pres said that it's a good thing for those Southwest FOs whose global seniority allows them a Captain seat, that some of them will get it sooner than originally expected. Is it good for those Airtran guys who lose their seats sooner? Obviously not. He wasn't talking to them.

You know, Dan, more often than not, you have pretty fair and reasonable posts on Flight Info. Occasionally even insightful. However, when it comes to Southwest pilots (not the airline itself necessarily), you just lose it. You continually protest neutrality, but just as continually, all you do is lob grenades at any pilot wearing a SWA uniform. This SLI is stressful enough to begin with, and you seem to be doing your best to stir up trouble and hard feelings.

Maybe you should seek professional help for your problem.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

What a scumbag!

Hey, I wouldn't go so far as to call Dan a scumbag; that's over the top. but thanks for your support however. :blush:

Bubba

 

[General Lee]

Wait, there is one thing the AT guys will get now that they have merged with SWA........wait for it......WEST TEXAS FLYING. (sorry, I had to say it)


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[humveedriver]

We have a new union president at AirTran. He is very well liked and respected by his fellow AirTran pilots. Steve Chase wishes he had that kind of respect. I suppose his letter is sort of a response to ours. Heck in another thread I said to someone here (scoreboard I think), to have your own president write how you guys feel. If that letter represents how SWA pilots really feel, I would rather know that, than have some kinds BS relationship. I really do believe in Karma. That what goes around, comes around. So if we are being being treated unfairly. Our time will come.

 

[Candide]

I'm a mid seniority SWA FO. And I understand the Airtran anger.

But consider MY perspective: my company forced me into a seniority integration with 1700+ pilots (vice organic growth), then decided they didn't want 2/3 of their airplanes.

I'm pissed too. But not at you guys. Nor should you be pissed at me.

 

[scoreboardII]

What candide says is gospel, lets live it, learn it, and realize this is a new SWA needing a new level of awareness from what was a puppy dog pilot union.

 

[Dan Roman]

Hey Dan,

What if the situation was the opposite, and GK announced we were keeping the 717s even longer, and that former Airtran guys kept those positions longer? (or some other business decision that benefited the Airtran guys) Would you give Airtran ALPA crap if they sold it to their members as good news? Somehow I doubt it.

Bubba

Why would you have a problem with the AirTran pilots keeping the flying THEY brought to the table no matter how long it was? Your perspective speaks volumes.