SWAPA Comments about 717

[scoreboardII]

Probably not the FO's that get the AirTran Captain positions.

How about the FO's who don't make the 2015 cut but would have had till end of lease through 2018-2021 to get into the seat due to those folks staying on the 717? Now, every seat until end of seniority disparity goes AT. It all depends where you are.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Wow, saying that replacing AT Captains seats with SWA f/o's as something to cheer for and "everyone should be happy" is pretty weak, to say the least.
Is that part of the "warrior spirit"

Hey Dan,

For someone who goes on and on about how he doesn't hold any bad feelings about SWA or its pilots, you sure have a hard time restraining yourself when it comes to bad-mouthing, picking, or generally pot-stirring, on every issue dealing with Southwest and its pilots' doings.

Capt Chase was writing to his constituency, which consists of SWAPA pilots, not Airtran ALPA pilots. That's who he represents. That's his job. And right now, a lot of his constituency, especially junior folks, are mad about lack of growth and upgrades. His comment was to THEM, not to Airtran people that he doesn't represent. And it was simply that due to a management decision, SOME of the upgrades that were coming anyway at the expense of Airtran pilots, due to global seniority, appear to be coming somewhat sooner than expected. What did you expect him to say to them?

What if the situation was the opposite, and GK announced we were keeping the 717s even longer, and that former Airtran guys kept those positions longer? (or some other business decision that benefited the Airtran guys) Would you give Airtran ALPA crap if they sold it to their members as good news? Somehow I doubt it.

Regardless, this was a management decision. SWAPA didn't make any sublease deal with Delta. GK did. In a later post, you insinuated that SWAPA "knew this was coming," and further, that it was information that Airtran didn't have. You don't know crap. You seem to have conveniently forgotten that SWAPA had signed off on a previous SLI deal that would have guaranteed former Airtran CAs their seats in perpetuity. The fact is, that managemnent pulls the strings, and both sets of pilots knew that the 717s leaving early was not only a possibility, but something that GK wanted. Certainly you remember Southwest AND Airtran pilots having this very discussion on Flight Info before the SLI was signed. SWAPA pilots wanted that to happen, and Airtran pilots (esp 717 guys) didn't want it to happen. That's the only real difference.

I'm not commenting on the "fairness" or any other way of looking at management's decision. It wasn't up to me, and it personally doesn't affect me much. However, I know that as it sits now, there will be a lot of upset people who ARE affected. Obviously, there will have to be some negotiation (due to the new timeline vs. the one signed in the SLI agreement). Hopefully, something can be done to mitigate the loss of what was expected to those affected Airtran pilots. I don't know what, but I hope something will be worked out.

In the meanwhile, while we see how all this plays out, why don't YOU shut your trap, and stop trying merely to piss off, and to pit two pilot groups against each other, neither of which had any hand in making this decision. Fair enough? Your theory of a SWA-SWAPA conspiracy to screw over the Airtran pilots is pretty stupid--neither the SWAPA pilots nor the ALPA pilots had a say in the decision to get married in the first place, nor in this current decision to get rid of the 717s.

Bubba

 

[ironspud]

Hey Dan,

For someone who goes on and on about how he doesn't hold any bad feelings about SWA or its pilots, you sure have a hard time restraining yourself when it comes to bad-mouthing, picking, or generally pot-stirring, on every issue dealing with Southwest and its pilots' doings.

Capt Chase was writing to his constituency, which consists of SWAPA pilots, not Airtran ALPA pilots. That's who he represents. That's his job. And right now, a lot of his constituency, especially junior folks, are mad about lack of growth and upgrades. His comment was to THEM, not to Airtran people that he doesn't represent. And it was simply that due to a management decision, SOME of the upgrades that were coming anyway at the expense of Airtran pilots, due to global seniority, appear to be coming somewhat sooner than expected. What did you expect him to say to them?

What if the situation was the opposite, and GK announced we were keeping the 717s even longer, and that former Airtran guys kept those positions longer? (or some other business decision that benefited the Airtran guys) Would you give Airtran ALPA crap if they sold it to their members as good news? Somehow I doubt it.

Regardless, this was a management decision. SWAPA didn't make any sublease deal with Delta. GK did. In a later post, you insinuated that SWAPA "knew this was coming," and further, that it was information that Airtran didn't have. You don't know crap. You seem to have conveniently forgotten that SWAPA had signed off on a previous SLI deal that would have guaranteed former Airtran CAs their seats in perpetuity. The fact is, that managemnent pulls the strings, and both sets of pilots knew that the 717s leaving early was not only a possibility, but something that GK wanted. Certainly you remember Southwest AND Airtran pilots having this very discussion on Flight Info before the SLI was signed. SWAPA pilots wanted that to happen, and Airtran pilots (esp 717 guys) didn't want it to happen. That's the only real difference.

I'm not commenting on the "fairness" or any other way of looking at management's decision. It wasn't up to me, and it personally doesn't affect me much. However, I know that as it sits now, there will be a lot of upset people who ARE affected. Obviously, there will have to be some negotiation (due to the new timeline vs. the one signed in the SLI agreement). Hopefully, something can be done to mitigate the loss of what was expected to those affected Airtran pilots. I don't know what, but I hope something will be worked out.

In the meanwhile, while we see how all this plays out, why don't YOU shut your trap, and stop trying merely to piss off, and to pit two pilot groups against each other, neither of which had any hand in making this decision. Fair enough? Your theory of a SWA-SWAPA conspiracy to screw over the Airtran pilots is pretty stupid--neither the SWAPA pilots nor the ALPA pilots had a say in the decision to get married in the first place, nor in this current decision to get rid of the 717s.

Bubba

What a scumbag!

 

[SWA Bubba]

.......and, they are saying it's a good thing! amazing

.......Probably not the FO's that get the AirTran Captain positions.

You just can't help yourself, can you Dan?

You should probably check your lame sarcasm, in that your first comment was actually answered by your second. The SWAPA pres said that it's a good thing for those Southwest FOs whose global seniority allows them a Captain seat, that some of them will get it sooner than originally expected. Is it good for those Airtran guys who lose their seats sooner? Obviously not. He wasn't talking to them.

You know, Dan, more often than not, you have pretty fair and reasonable posts on Flight Info. Occasionally even insightful. However, when it comes to Southwest pilots (not the airline itself necessarily), you just lose it. You continually protest neutrality, but just as continually, all you do is lob grenades at any pilot wearing a SWA uniform. This SLI is stressful enough to begin with, and you seem to be doing your best to stir up trouble and hard feelings.

Maybe you should seek professional help for your problem.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

What a scumbag!

Hey, I wouldn't go so far as to call Dan a scumbag; that's over the top. but thanks for your support however. :blush:

Bubba

 

[General Lee]

Wait, there is one thing the AT guys will get now that they have merged with SWA........wait for it......WEST TEXAS FLYING. (sorry, I had to say it)


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[humveedriver]

We have a new union president at AirTran. He is very well liked and respected by his fellow AirTran pilots. Steve Chase wishes he had that kind of respect. I suppose his letter is sort of a response to ours. Heck in another thread I said to someone here (scoreboard I think), to have your own president write how you guys feel. If that letter represents how SWA pilots really feel, I would rather know that, than have some kinds BS relationship. I really do believe in Karma. That what goes around, comes around. So if we are being being treated unfairly. Our time will come.

 

[Candide]

I'm a mid seniority SWA FO. And I understand the Airtran anger.

But consider MY perspective: my company forced me into a seniority integration with 1700+ pilots (vice organic growth), then decided they didn't want 2/3 of their airplanes.

I'm pissed too. But not at you guys. Nor should you be pissed at me.

 

[scoreboardII]

What candide says is gospel, lets live it, learn it, and realize this is a new SWA needing a new level of awareness from what was a puppy dog pilot union.

 

[Dan Roman]

Hey Dan,

What if the situation was the opposite, and GK announced we were keeping the 717s even longer, and that former Airtran guys kept those positions longer? (or some other business decision that benefited the Airtran guys) Would you give Airtran ALPA crap if they sold it to their members as good news? Somehow I doubt it.

Bubba

Why would you have a problem with the AirTran pilots keeping the flying THEY brought to the table no matter how long it was? Your perspective speaks volumes.

 

[shootr]

Right of Return (ROR) is what many SWAPA members were pushing for which would have prevented ANY senior pilots from poaching positions from ANY displaced pilots due to SWA's month to month vacancy flexing for seasonal flying. The same ROR that AT ALPA (and most pilot groups) has in their CBA. Company AND SWAPA said no. End of story (except for all the PO'd junior Southwest guys).

Hope that helps,
shootr

 

[Uppercrust]

One day SWAPA will ask us former AT pilots to stand with them in some sort of fight. I won't be there, ever.

I'm with you my brother!

 

[Diesel-9]

I've heard chatter that SWA will be paying DAL $150,000 month for every B-717 aircraft. $13.2 mil a month/$158 million a year. Are these aircraft leased from Boeing?

 

[tankerhead]

I doubt there are too many pissed off junior 717 FO's. They (we) were poised to have to ride that seat with zero movement until the leases expired. Our version of SWA's "CJ" was in for a very long uncomfortable ride until Tuesday's announcement. I was beaming ear to ear upon receiving the news.

 

[Scoot 11]

To all the first officers at Airtran (I'm addressing the entire pilot group here)
YOU SHOULD HAVE DUMPED ALPO!!!!!!!

Yes, because for the last 5 years an LCC 25 year 737 east captain has been getting what a 3rd year SW f/o has been getting...:laugh:

 

[SWA Bubba]

Why would you have a problem with the AirTran pilots keeping the flying THEY brought to the table no matter how long it was? Your perspective speaks volumes.

MY perspective? I was only giving an example of a management business decision that would have favored the other side of the partition, and then suggested that YOU wouldn't have had a problem with their union leadership describing it to its members in favorable terms, even if it was a material change to the agreed-upon SLI that harmed SWAPA pilots. I offered NO personal perspective whatsoever.

As I and others have pointed out numerous times (Candide most recently above), that while we agree that this changes the agreed-upon terms of the SLI in a way that harms Airtran expectations, THIS WAS NOT A SWAPA DECISION. Yet you act like SWAPA just sits around trying to find ways to screw over Airtran guys. Maybe it would be a little more constructive to address criticism of a business decision at the people who actually MADE the decision, not the people whose job it is to react to such decisions, for better or worse.

You know, I was gonna' ask you how exactly you thought Capt Chase SHOULD have phrased this, when communicating management's decision to his constituents, but I changed my mind. I think we've had enough of your "helpful" commentary on this subject. Thanks for all of that, by the way. You're a peach.

Bubba

 

[Daddy]

Anyone who believes that SWAPA had somehow strategically planned this does not know SWAPA. You guys will see this soon enough though. Don't be mad at your fellow pilots...airtran or SWA. We will all be further tested by this management team at some point and will need to stick together for our own good. I'm hopeful airtran will bring over a little backbone to the SWA group. SWAPA is a little lost in the woods right now and the natives are getting restless. Do not take any of this personally...constitutional votes included. Our membership basically just said no to everything and most didn't even read it...they are just unhappy with our company and our union. An unending series of gaffs on both has led to that. Especially the company....millions wasted on RNP, bungled wifi, crippling IT capability, and a new VP every week without a pilot in sight to stop the upper management buffoonery with even a little rudimentary aviation knowledge. If you really want to worry about something, worry about that. No one will get furloughed over this deal...you guys will be taken care of. Worry about the bean counters. The SLI is done...it passed both sides...the fallout will be what it will be. Crapping on your fellow pilots will not help no matter which side of the fence you're on. You guys will love our system here...you will probably have to stand with us and fight to keep it at some point.

 

[Tripower455]

Right of Return (ROR) is what many SWAPA members were pushing for which would have prevented ANY senior pilots from poaching positions from ANY displaced pilots due to SWA's month to month vacancy flexing for seasonal flying. The same ROR that AT ALPA (and most pilot groups) has in their CBA. Company AND SWAPA said no. End of story (except for all the PO'd junior Southwest guys).

Hope that helps,
shootr

Yup...

Lack of ROR coupled with our monthly, -3/+1 vacancy bid process has been a major issue for the junior guys ever since 9/11 slowed growth.

For those not familiar, we have monthly vacancy bids. The company micromanages the manning, reducing some bases and increasing others, often by only a few pilots either way. If no one wants to leave when there's a reduction (common in senior bases like MCO), bottom folks get displaced. A few months later, they'll add a few slots, and they are rebid in seniority order, so it's as if the displaced guy never even held that base and he's forced to commute (sometimes for years) while the senior guys come in and poach vacations etc.

The lack of ROR also stagnates the rest of the list in senior domiciles, particularly on the Capt side (MCO is a prime example), but now the FO side will be similarly affected as the AT guys come in on top of them.

Every few years, the ROR subject came up, and SWAPA ignored it, mainly because it would "harm" the senior vacation poachers and domicile carpetbaggers. This time around, SWAPA was able to deflect the blame to the company.

The senior carpetbaggers love the flexibility of being able to winter in MCO and summer in BWI etc, but the junior guys pay for it.

IMHO, getting ROR in the contract would HELP the former AT guys as much as it would the organic SW guys, especially once they can exercise their global seniority, but SWAPA won't fight for it.

 

[redflyer65]

SWAPA didn't back ROR what so ever. Once the AAI guys come over, they will see how the vacancies roll. Sometimes -/+ 5 or so...sometimes -/+ 15. It's painful to get to the base you want..finally to then be booted with no right of return.

Trip is right, those that are more senior love to bid around at will with no reprecussions. Need to bid MDW to MCO for a new girlfriend, no problem for the guys with seniority.

Like the weather better in MDW during the summer? You get the point. The guys at the bottom bare the brunt of the wild swings. Those higher up have no clue of the displacements, literally no clue.

 

[vixin]

SWAPA, in my own opinion and based on that fact, had no previous knowledge of the 717 going away.
__________________

This announcement is one SWAPA has planned for from the original announcement of the purchase of AirTran Airways.

Steve Chase

You need to go re read the letter then. Steve Chase stated in his very poor letter that they knew of the 717's fate the day the announcement was made. How do you feel about your union now?

Then any remaining after 2015 will come over as CA as they transition to their 737 CA job.

Only if their world senority can hold it, correct?

Time for both pilot groups to band together and send SWA a message. This divid and conquer will only hurt this pilot group more and give Mr Kelly a bigger smile. He does not give a crap about the pilots. Get that clear.

 

[redflyer65]

Within the past two months, it was the worst kept secret in aviation that the 717 was going to Delta. Even the Delta guys knew it. I pretty sure Steve knew for sure with the miniumum two day notice from Southwest. They haven't really let us know anything of their concrete plans on anything lately, until it hits the papers.

 

[Max Powers]

How about the FO's who don't make the 2015 cut but would have had till end of lease through 2018-2021 to get into the seat due to those folks staying on the 717? Now, every seat until end of seniority disparity goes AT. It all depends where you are.

You're still closer to upgrade than you were before, had you not merged. You had an overall relative seniority gain of 14.23% based on your specific overall relative seniority.

Scoreboard you are a class act: I like how you tell us how it isn't so bad losing over 80% of our captain slots. And how now - you are screwed because a few AAI pilots will be able to upgrade in 2015. UFB.

 

[vixin]

Steve Chase Knew the day or the announcement to purchase AAI. He states that in his letter to the association

 

[ILUVURBANMYERS]

Re read Daddy's post-SHACK! He gets it. The hand wringing by GK is scarey! He is surrounded by non aviation lap dogs. I was in a PT last month and the training center was FULL of pilots on trip pull all wearing slacks and button up shirts in some committee of some sort. Chief pilot/check airman symposium-you get the pic. In the sim all we did was BS RNP and DDA non precision work that you NEVER do on the line. Hold on the ride is gonna be rough.

 

[Lear70]

SWAPA was again working on RoR as recently as early last month (April) in conjunction with SL12. They were unable to get the company to buy off on it, so it died... for now.

I have to say, with the way SWA flexes CA staffing up and down monthly, I have no idea how they're going to function without a Lance CA program to act as a shock absorber to the system and without RoR.

For the sake of our CA's, I'm glad it's dead for now, but overall, I've always expected a RoR for displaced CA's, just not sure how it would work in the SWA system where upgrading/downgrading guys every month seems to be the norm, rather than other carriers where it's the exception.

And for the record, Steve Chase knew his letter would be read by everyone on both sides, both labor and management alike, just as our MEC and even our management teams know everything they put in writing gets EVERYWHERE and analyzed 5 ways from Sunday.

As such, a little less jubilation would have gone a long way towards not alienating an already inflamed pilot group at AirTran and brought us much closer together as union pilot brethren moving forward.

Not to mention the ill-worded statement that SWAPA knew of the early retirements of the 717 way back during SLI negotiations and management letters and emails to us as recently as 60 days ago say there was no plan for their early departure.

Less than stellar communiques'. I understand that he is wanting to celebrate a "win" for your pilot group, but coming at the expense of another group that you will eventually have to work with, it could have been tamed down a bit for future relations between our groups.

And that's all I have to say about that...

 

[Ty Webb]

With all do respect in SL9 that was not even given a chance to be voted on every AirTran captain was seat protected. I would've had 160 people junior to me holding the left seat. SWAPA reccomended we vote it in. So SWAPA, in my own opinion and based on that fact, had no previous knowledge of the 717 going away.

Actually, The first proposal (SIA #1) had a clause that would have lost the 717CA seats as well.

 

[waveflyer]

You guys have serious reading comprehension issues:


Quote:
This announcement is one SWAPA has planned for from the original announcement of the purchase of AirTran Airways.

Steve Chase

Lear, please acknowledge that you did not "KNOW" two months ago that the 717's would be sold- yet still urged your MEC to plan for that contingency.
Thats all Chase was saying. Justifying their efforts.

 

[Lear70]

Yes, that's exactly what I said... we didn't "know" and were actually being told by Southwest management that there were no plans to get rid of them earlier than previously-planned.

But the writing (for those of us with a little forward thinking) was on the wall. I took a lot of heat from a couple reps saying I was seeing "black helicopter" conspiracies and we shouldn't waste our time... that's how convinced we were of what Southwest had told us about the 717's being here at least through the integration.

Hell, one of the MC members even made a $100 bet with me just 3 weeks ago that the majority of the 717's would make the transition... he hasn't emailed me back about paying up yet.

I pushed anyway, and they started planning.

If that's what Chase is saying, that's fine, but it was worded poorly when combined with the rest of the letter and didn't come across that way. At least not on the AirTran side... Perception filters our reality I guess.

 

[SWA Bubba]

.... with the way SWA flexes CA staffing up and down monthly...

.... in the SWA system where upgrading/downgrading guys every month seems to be the norm, rather than other carriers where it's the exception....

This is actually a mischaracterization, Lear. Captains don't get upgraded and downgraded every month. When there's no growth, the bottom few guys get displaced between domiciles on a monthly basis. When there's growth (as there is now recently) that doesn't happen. ROR (as I believe most airline CBAs have) would help those junior few get back to their chosen domiciles. SWAPA has never had it, and it's never been an issue with a continually-growing company. Since we're not that anymore, people's voices on this subject are getting louder.

As far as up/downgrades, that's mostly a thing of the past. It used to be (with continual growth) that you had senior FOs (who bid Xmas vacations the year before) becoming Captains during the year. That meant you had senior CAs and junior CAs with Xmas vacations to cover (too many). The company traditionally added extra CAs for December, and bumped them back down in Jan when they weren't needed. Now, with a lot less growth, that's not as much of an issue. In fact, there was no downgrades (and few upgrades) for the last two Christmas seasons. The last involuntary CA downgrade was in Jan 2010.

Bubba

 

[Lear70]

Ah, I gotcha. Most of us were under the impression that the RoR being worked on was for Captain seats.

Thanks for the clarification.