SWAPA/ATN: Why no JCBA?

[Lear70]

This is the big one for many. We have set on reserve in some of the most unbelievably unsafe areas for 2 1/2 years waiting to get SOMEWHAT closer to home. $8000 is what I have spent on hotel's since coming to SWA. To be able to drive to work is huge, as all of the Tranny commuters know. To have the fence come down around Atl, opens all the bases in our system. To get bumped out of a base, to me, is the equivalent of getting bumped out of a seat. You are right, it is all about perspective. To be bumped out of a base after the SLI is.....kind of like being bumped out of a seat, or losing an anticipated upgrade, wouldn't you say?

If you live in your base, yeah, that would be huge.

You need to take a closer look at our contract. Every AAI pilot gets a raise - EVEN IF THERE ARE DOWNGRADES. Making the trip conversion is tough, but to really understand you need to dig into our work rules.

Not *entirely* sure about that, having done the math with a buddy who is a 5th year SWA F/O, but like you said, there's got to be something more to the work rules than straight-line math, 'cause he makes a lot more than it seems he should monthly just looking at TFP. He does, however, work a lot (his wife is... well... let's just say I'd probably bid a lot of flying if I was married to her, too.)

You are gonna LUV it here brother!

Thanks, I'm looking forward to it.

 

[Ty Webb]

I think you might be surprised how an arbitration agreement would look like.

There really is no similarities with AAI/SW and DL/NW. None.

You're right. It's a even simpler deal.

If you took the time to run the numbers, with a complete AAI staple every Airtran pilot would significantly increase their career earnings all the way to age 65. Period, end of story. That shows how much of a windfall this deal is for you guys.
RF

There's no way of telling, because contracts change, pay rates change and companies go into bankruptcy over the course of a pilot's career. The one thing that remains constant is his seniority.

There's a long list of airlines that paid better than SWA 20 years ago, and are now out of business, bankrupt, and/or merged.

 

[ASADFW7]

Were they profitable Ty? Even after all the posturing AT guys and gals will be flabbergasted at the contrast in companies and in compensation. There will be no hit for you financially period.

 

[roughneck]

There's a long list of airlines that paid better than SWA 20 years ago, and are now out of business, bankrupt, and/or merged.

There also has never in the history of aviation been a company as profitable and stable as Southwest Airlines.

AirTran can't afford the payrates they agreed to. Interesting that they didn't agree to them until after the public announcement that SWA was buying you. That is why the big raises don't kick in until well after the expected close date. If the acquisition doesn't go through, I bet you $5 that you will be giving the raises back, giving concessions on what you have today and furloughing AGAIN in 12 months. Care to wager?

(Thank goodness for a Constructive Notice Date)

 

[scarlet]

If you took the time to run the numbers, with a complete AAI staple every Airtran pilot would significantly increase their career earnings all the way to age 65. Period, end of story. That shows how much of a windfall this deal is for you guys.
RF

IT is not about MONEY !! so your 8 yr cpt should be senior to a 10-12 yr cpt at AT= WHY? Yeah RIGHT

Windfall, lets talk about what you guys get. how about no growth for over the next two years currently planned, lets talk about 50-75 more 737s coming, INTL cities that you don't fly to, your reservation system that is a wreck, DCA slots, LGA slots, did I mention ATL, rafts on 737, raft trained crews, XM Radio (entertainment), WiFi on every plane, oh and Gary Kelly and SWA noted ATL may become largest city..=? Windfall again?

Sen=is about days off/vacation/holidays !

So a 6-7yr FO that is about to upgrade should be back at the bottom of your list?

Date of hire or Relative Sen.=FAIR It is not like you or us would gain thousands of numbers on any one. Yes have done the math by rel. sen. and by hire date.. and by 4 to 1....either 4-5 ways you can run the numbers=you will be around 400-500 within your number or 5 now. no gain, no loss . Frontier was BK and their pilots would not take staple.

 

[scarlet]

AirTran can't afford the payrates they agreed to.

So why not wait until AT folds and buy them then.=Oh thats right smart one, AT just keeps growing and growing and getting another 50-75 aircraft in the next 5 yrs.

AT cheaper to operate then SWA, so they will just keep chopping away at SWA, so if you are SWA;how do you stop that=BUY THEM. Economy 101 ! Think about all that you would get with an Airtran merger= MAKES alot of SENSE and more importantly more MONEY for SWA !

 

[luv2fly]

If you took the time to run the numbers, with a complete AAI staple every Airtran pilot would significantly increase their career earnings all the way to age 65. Period, end of story. That shows how much of a windfall this deal is for you guys.
RF

IT is not about MONEY !! so your 8 yr cpt should be senior to a 10-12 yr cpt at AT= WHY? Yeah RIGHT

Windfall, lets talk about what you guys get. how about no growth for over the next two years currently planned, lets talk about 50-75 more 737s coming, INTL cities that you don't fly to, your reservation system that is a wreck, DCA slots, LGA slots, did I mention ATL, rafts on 737, raft trained crews, XM Radio (entertainment), WiFi on every plane, oh and Gary Kelly and SWA noted ATL may become largest city..=? Windfall again?

Sen=is about days off/vacation/holidays !

So a 6-7yr FO that is about to upgrade should be back at the bottom of your list?

Date of hire or Relative Sen.=FAIR It is not like you or us would gain thousands of numbers on any one. Yes have done the math by rel. sen. and by hire date.. and by 4 to 1....either 4-5 ways you can run the numbers=you will be around 400-500 within your number or 5 now. no gain, no loss . Frontier was BK and their pilots would not take staple.

Put down your wine and step away from the computer....please!

I will say you are correct in this statement, "Sen=is days off/vacation/holidays!" Over here the AVERAGE is 18 days off a month. You guys could get placed at the bottom of our list and the average pilot will see a huge increase in days off. So if your stance is Seniority = Days off; then I have a perfect SLI for you!

 

[roughneck]

AT cheaper to operate then SWA, so they will just keep chopping away at SWA

AT has never gained market share over SWA in any markets in which they compete. AirTran is a competitor, but not one that SWA spends much time worrying about. We want your gates in ATL. Not much else.

 

[ivauir]

Our low pay the past decade helped to build a quality LCC which your company wanted badly enough to pay a couple billion for if you include our debt in the mix. So we have earned the pay raise and SWA will get their growth.

Max,

Interesting argument.

Our recent lack of growth has let us save the money that we are using to buy you ...

 

[Richard Gozinya]

If you live in your base, yeah, that would be huge.

Yes, it is huge. Even more when the commute to every domicile, exc Hou, is two legs. Losing a seat in a domicile that you live is the same as losing the left seat or a possible/anticipated upgrade. And I'm sure we can all agree that anything hoped for in the future in the airline industry is just that........a possibility.

 

[roughneck]

Our recent lack of growth has let us save the money that we are using to buy you ...

I will add that we are doing it with petty cash and left over stock from the bottom drawer. No SWA shareholder vote required.

 

[texman]

If you took the time to run the numbers, with a complete AAI staple every Airtran pilot would significantly increase their career earnings all the way to age 65. Period, end of story. That shows how much of a windfall this deal is for you guys.
RF

IT is not about MONEY !! so your 8 yr cpt should be senior to a 10-12 yr cpt at AT= WHY? Yeah RIGHT

Windfall, lets talk about what you guys get. how about no growth for over the next two years currently planned, lets talk about 50-75 more 737s coming, INTL cities that you don't fly to, your reservation system that is a wreck, DCA slots, LGA slots, did I mention ATL, rafts on 737, raft trained crews, XM Radio (entertainment), WiFi on every plane, oh and Gary Kelly and SWA noted ATL may become largest city..=? Windfall again?

Sen=is about days off/vacation/holidays !

So a 6-7yr FO that is about to upgrade should be back at the bottom of your list?

Date of hire or Relative Sen.=FAIR It is not like you or us would gain thousands of numbers on any one. Yes have done the math by rel. sen. and by hire date.. and by 4 to 1....either 4-5 ways you can run the numbers=you will be around 400-500 within your number or 5 now. no gain, no loss . Frontier was BK and their pilots would not take staple.

AM/MB will apply. No stress bro. Swa does have 71 firm orders which add to your 51. Don't allow your self to get wrapped up in something you can't control. It's all good. Yes many great things come with AT. But your future company will allow you a better life for you and your family. Just feel lucky that we have the law in place. Time will tell.

 

[Ty Webb]

There also has never in the history of aviation been a company as profitable and stable as Southwest Airlines.

Source?

SWA has a great track record, but AMR, UAL, DAL and NWA have all been around twice as long, and I'm sure sure at some point in their histories, their pilots could puff their chests up with pride and make the same statement you just did. Hell, throw in Pan Am and TWA too. They each had 40 years to point to, and they were operating worldwide.

Am I blaspheming? :laugh:

AirTran can't afford the payrates they agreed to.

Who told you that, the drive-thru girl at Popeye's? :laugh: This is so silly that it's not worth responding to. Read our 10Q. It's not rocket surgery.

 

[roughneck]

Source?

This is what wikipedia had to say. It isn't hard to find how great our company is. I see if I can find the one that talks about LUV stock being the best return in all of the US from 1980-2000. Our company doesn't suck. Do your guys feel the same way about AirTran?

Southwest Airlines Co. (NYSE: LUV) is an American low-cost airline and the world's largest low-cost carrier. The airline has its headquarters on the grounds of Dallas Love Field in Dallas, Texas. Southwest is the largest airline in the world by number of passengers carried per year (as of 2009).[3] Southwest maintains the fourth-largest passenger fleet of aircraft among all of the world's commercial airlines.[4] As of December 31, 2009, Southwest operates more than 3,200 flights daily.[5]
Southwest Airlines has carried more passengers than any other U.S. airline since August 2006 for combined domestic and international passengers according to the U.S. Department of Transportation's Bureau of Transportation Statistics.[6] Southwest Airlines is one of the world’s most profitable airlines, posting a profit for the 37th consecutive year in January 2010.[7]
Southwest's successful business model involves flying multiple short, quick trips into the secondary (more efficient and less costly) airports of major markets, and using only one aircraft type, the Boeing 737.
On September 27, 2010. Southwest Airlines announced it would acquire AirTran Airways.[8]

 

[canyonblue]

AT cheaper to operate then SWA, so they will just keep chopping away at SWA, so if you are SWA;how do you stop that=BUY THEM. Economy 101 !

I would say that is a correct statement. I always assumed Southwest is buying AirTran for one reason, and one reason only, to kill them off. It's not about wanting anything that is AirTran, including the employees. If it weren't for the government legislation, I couldn't say we would hire a single one, our culture is too important to be gambled with. Sure the topping on the cake is instant growth in ATL, and we got it cheap. I have heard there will be a probationary period, just like with Morris. This should weed out any undesirables, and at SWA, they will be easy to spot. It's just the Southwest way.

 

[Dude]

Everyone mentions seniority as the "long pole in the tent". Fair enough. What does seniority buy you? Vacation, days off, certain days of flying, types of trips and the left seat. Those are the biggies.

With our flexibility and scheduling rules we can virtually build our own schedule, even as a very junior pilot. Obviously some months this is easier than others, but moving flying around to accommodate your schedule is not just possible but very likely.

Vacation and the left seat are what they are, but QOL is HUGE as a junior pilot at SWA. In my short time here my QOL is not much different than a 20+ year guy - seriously. The gap between seniority groups is very small. The luv is spread around to everyone, not just the senior. Since our trips are highly productive, you don't have to be senior to be productive. So again, the gap is very narrow. Left seat and vacation time are the only things that being junior won't get you.

How long do you have to work at other carriers to get flying you want and 17ish days off/month?

Thought I would share.

 

[Lear70]

AirTran can't afford the payrates they agreed to.

Ummm... really...? Flamebait at its finest...

Like Ty said: 10Q, among other things. ALPA fully vetted our ORIGINAL proposal and presented it PERSONALLY to AirTran's CEO and CFO. If THEY didn't complain about THAT, then you can imagine them settling well BELOW that proposal is well within the budget.

FYI, The total cost of the T.A. over the ENTIRE duration is less than what AirTran will post in Net Profit THIS YEAR ALONE.

Interesting that they didn't agree to them until after the public announcement that SWA was buying you. That is why the big raises don't kick in until well after the expected close date. If the acquisition doesn't go through, I bet you $5 that you will be giving the raises back, giving concessions on what you have today and furloughing AGAIN in 12 months. Care to wager?

Sure. Not going to matter, as the deal isn't going away, but I'll take that bet.

Again, it's statements like this that only serve to divide the two pilot groups. Why are you stirring the pot?

 

[roughneck]

Left seat and vacation time are the only things that being junior won't get you.

Our right seat guys make more than AT left seat guys. They will get their vacation because Gary has said he will honor their longevity for pay and benefits. They win all the way around no matter where they fall on the list.

 

[Dude]

good point

 

[canyonblue]

SWA has a great track record, but AMR, UAL, DAL and NWA have all been around twice as long, and I'm sure sure at some point in their histories, their pilots could puff their chests up with pride and make the same statement you just did. Hell, throw in Pan Am and TWA too. They each had 40 years to point to, and they were operating worldwide.

I wouldn't bet a dime on any company track record before deregulation, easy money there.

Q. Do you want to know which college football team has the most National Championships? Alabama? Michigan? Oklahoma? Ohio State?

A. Princeton

Of course 20 of them occurred before 1900. I prefer to use contemporary examples when proving my position.