Swan Song for Song

[737 Pylt]

bye bye Song

While I also agree with everyone's statements that Song was a great product, you all are forgetting who you are dealing with.....This management is the most incompetent group of bafoons working in the business. Not sure, I give you Delta Express....Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. If this place is to survive, then it needs a clean sweep at the 4th floor. God help us all. I urge everyone working under the DAL umbrella to quickly update thier resumes and work on plan B because we are all doomed with this group of idiots at the helm.
737

 

[FDJ2]

The Song product is expanding to the mainline. 50 more mainline aircraft will be converted to Song service in the next two years. Song service will upgrade its amenities to include first class seating.

I think this is great news. Longer domestic routes needed to be upgraded to Song service. Song has proven itself and the domestic mainline fleet will start converting itself to all Song service for transcontinental flights.

In the next two years we'll see a doubling of Song service at DAL. 100 Delta aircraft providing Song service coast to coast.:beer:

 

[-9Capt]

Delta to Discontinue Song by May 2006

By MIKE STOBBE
Associated Press Writer
ATLANTA — Delta Air Lines Inc., which is reorganizing under protection from the federal bankruptcy court, announced plans Friday to discontinue its discount carrier Song and incorporate Song's fleet into Delta's regular service.
Song will continue to fly as a separate brand until May 2006, Delta officials said.
(enlarge photo)
A Song Boeing 757 airplane is seen Wednesday, Sept. 3, 2003, at the Los Angeles International Airport with a Delta Airlines jet in the background. Delta Air Lines Inc., which is reorganizing under protection from the federal bankruptcy court, announced plans Friday, Oct. 28, 2005, to discontinue its discount carrier Song by May 2006 and incorporate Song's fleet into Delta's regular service. (AP Photo/Damiam Dovarganes)

After May, Delta plans to refit the single-class Song airplanes to include first-class seating to make the planes conform with Delta's regular service. The planes will be gradually be repainted in Delta colors by next fall.
Joanne Smith, currently president of Song, has been named vice president of consumer marketing for Delta, effective immediately.
Atlanta-based Delta filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection from creditors in New York on Sept. 14. Song filed for bankruptcy protection the same day.
Delta officials said there will be no layoffs directly from Song's elimination. Any reductions that do occur are part of the 7,000 to 9,000 job cuts Delta announced last month as part of its bankruptcy restructuring, a spokeswoman said.
Delta expects to cut marketing and other costs as a result of closing Song, but the company did not release estimates.
Song was created in 2003 as a hip travel option for leisure travelers, with amenities such as increased leg room, preflight meal ordering and even a music service. It was designed to compete with JetBlue Airways Corp. and other low-cost airlines.
Song has 48 Boeing 757-200 aircraft. It flies from 16 locations, including Boston, Hartford, New York, Seattle, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Atlanta, five cities in Florida and three Caribbean vacation spots — Nassau, San Juan and Aruba.
Delta did not release figures on Song's profits or losses. But company officials said they considered it a hit with customers: This year Song has filled 78 percent of its seats, Delta officials said.
Song also has been a successful lab experiment that allowed Delta to try new services, said Jim Whitehurst, Delta's chief operating officer.
Delta is adopting new uniforms, new leather interiors, improved in-flight entertainment systems and other Song features. The airline already has picked up on Song's simpler fare system.
"Overall, Song has been a home run," said Paul Matsen, Delta's chief marketing officer.
Despite its success, Delta officials say they wanted the flexibility to use Song's aircraft on other routes. In addition, some Song fliers wanted a first-class option, the airline said.
But aviation industry expert Robert Shumsky, an associate professor of business at Dartmouth College, said Song should be counted as an example of a failed attempt by a hub-and-spoke carrier to create low-cost, non-hub 'airlines within airlines.'
"It's hard for me to believe they would end something that was working well," Shumsky said.
___

 

[Blue Dude]

Song was begun primarily in response to one carrier: JetBlue. There was no other reason to launch that particular brand at that particular time. It was a roll of the dice that ultimately didn't work. The product itself was fine, and it did have an effect on the competition, but it never was self-sustaining. It was therefore irrational to keep it going. It should have been killed a couple of years ago when the new CEO took over, but he saw an opportunity to use it as a test bed, so it stayed.

Ultimately, this means that Delta has finally realized that it can no longer afford to act irrationally and create entire operating divisions merely in response to a single competitive threat. That is a good thing for all concerned, even competitors. It means that a certain level of rationality has returned to Delta, and rational competitors are greatly to be desired over irrational ones, even if the latter is self-destructive. After chapter 11, Delta can't afford to play "I'm gonna git you sucka" anymore. Instead, they end up improving their product across the board, and that can't be a bad thing.

 

[Mugs]

Song was begun primarily in response to one carrier: JetBlue. There was no other reason to launch that particular brand at that particular time. It was a roll of the dice that ultimately didn't work. The product itself was fine, and it did have an effect on the competition, but it never was self-sustaining. It was therefore irrational to keep it going. It should have been killed a couple of years ago when the new CEO took over, but he saw an opportunity to use it as a test bed, so it stayed.

Ultimately, this means that Delta has finally realized that it can no longer afford to act irrationally and create entire operating divisions merely in response to a single competitive threat. That is a good thing for all concerned, even competitors. It means that a certain level of rationality has returned to Delta, and rational competitors are greatly to be desired over irrational ones, even if the latter is self-destructive. After chapter 11, Delta can't afford to play "I'm gonna git you sucka" anymore. Instead, they end up improving their product across the board, and that can't be a bad thing.

E-190 rates, the desire to do trans-con turns especially when you know guys would commute in that same day to do it..........let's be careful with the "rational competitor" crap Blue Dude. Everybody is irrational these days.

 

[Blue Dude]

E-190 rates, the desire to do trans-con turns especially when you know guys would commute in that same day to do it..........let's be careful with the "rational competitor" crap Blue Dude. Everybody is irrational these days.

I expected better, mugs. The E190 rates aren't irrational, just disappointing. I'd be very surprised to see a transcon turn ever becoming legal though. It's difficult to comment since there are no details available and may never be available.

Compare either one to spending $80 million chasing a market segment you aren't cost competitive on, and won't be after the money is spent either. Then expand that division at the expense of capturing higher yielding traffic, even as the competition you hoped to harm is getting a fare premium at a lower cost. That is irrational.

 

[pgcfii2002]

It appears that they will operate mostly 757's fitted with IFE and the like on a large number of domestic routes. Any idea what will happen when the 757's retire?? I'm guessing most are pushing 20+ years by now??

 

[pgcfii2002]

The Song product will remain, sounds like they are just repainting the aircraft, blending it in to the current fleet.

 

[8vATE]

E-190 rates, ..........let's be careful with the "rational competitor" crap Blue Dude. Everybody is irrational these days.

Yea .... right up there with 14 year USAirways F/O rates....
which are $0 per hour.


Blue dude's observation about the Emb190 rates are accurate .

They are disappointing.....
But so are paycuts, furloughs and inept management.

A rational business plan is the golden egg now.
SWA has it.
Jetblue is working on it.

 

[skykid]

I expected better, mugs. The E190 rates aren't irrational, just disappointing.

I'd say pathetic is a better word for the rates than disappointing. FIX IT! You've got 12 year Bus F/O's at 76/hour, and 4 year E190 CAPTAINS making the same thing. That's what a 3 year FedEx plummer makes. Before you post that I don't know how the total compensation package works - I do. I guess if you upgrade quickly to the left seat and make more money than you ever have, it seems like you are getting over. Your're not, legacy pilots gave up 30% and a pension to match you.

 

[miles otoole]

I'd say pathetic is a better word for the rates than disappointing. FIX IT! You've got 12 year Bus F/O's at 76/hour, and 4 year E190 CAPTAINS making the same thing. That's what a 3 year FedEx plummer makes. Before you post that I don't know how the total compensation package works - I do. I guess if you upgrade quickly to the left seat and make more money than you ever have, it seems like you are getting over. Your're not, legacy pilots gave up 30% and a pension to match you.

There are also former Astronauts and Presidential command pilots making 70K a year in the right seat of a 737 at WN. WHat's your point?

 

[G4G5]

At WN those Astronauts and Presidential command pilots will be making north of $180K on 12 year pay rates. They are smart people and that's why they are at WN.

 

[FDJ2]

It was a roll of the dice that ultimately didn't work. The product itself was fine, and it did have an effect on the competition, but it never was self-sustaining. It was therefore irrational to keep it going.

Blue Dude, you are drawing conclusions that aren't supported by anything DAL is doing with Song. If DAL was eliminating Song service and halting the conversion of 757s to Song equipped aircraft you might have a point. But that's not happening.

DAL isn't eliminating Song, it's incorporating it into the mainline. DAL isn't eliminating its Song service or aircraft, on the contrary, DAL is doubling its Song Service in the next 2 years.

If it was a roll of the dice that didn't work, then how come the service is expanding to over 100 Song configured aircraft in the next two years?

The only people with the real numbers on Song work at the GO on Virginia Ave. and their decision to configure an additional 50 aircraft for Song service suggest that they like what they see with Song.

Now that all mainline domestic DAL flights over 1,750 miles will be equipped for Song service in the next 2 years, it makes no sense to keep Song as a separate entity. Song had two purposes, to be a competive response and to be a test bed. I suggest that the increased investment in Song service and the transformation of mainline aircraft to a Song configuration indicates that the roll of the dice seems to have worked.

 

[Blue Dude]

FDJ, the roll of the dice I was thinking of was a separate operating division and separate brand built almost solely to inflict pain on JetBlue. But as you say, there is no longer a reason to keep Song separate. Why? The brand didn't serve Delta all that well. More exactly, Song became well known in certain circles as a good product, but it only made Delta coach look bad by comparison, not JetBlue. Some passengers preferred Song over JetBlue, and vice versa, but by most accounts the products were pretty comparable, and markedly superior to most domestic coach.

Getting rid of Song is a net positive for Delta, and will serve to improve Delta as a brand, now that they're not competing aganst themselves anymore. But all the costs associated with building Song as an individual brand are now lost. Furthermore, unless the product improvements are distributed to all domestic coach, which would be very expensive, it will create brand confusion among Delta customers. It'll be a crapshoot: TV's or no TV's? Depends on the route, the equipment, maybe even the day or time slot. Nothing you can really count on, so it will be difficult to market the improvements as a service commitment. The best you can say is that on a given day, you'll probably get an airplane with TV. At least with Song, you were buying a known product. Now the product is less known.

Sure, there's more to Song than the TV's, but they do create buzz and a service that sets itself apart from other legacy coach. Now your customers won't know what to think. A marketing challenge for sure, but still I think a net positive for Delta. And the rest of us.

 

[Victor120]

Agent Smith: "Do you hear that, Mr. Anderson? That is the sound of inevitability."

http://www.neoandtrinity.net/imgs/smith_front.jpg

 

[FDJ2]

Blue Dude, I see what you're saying with reference to a different brand identity. One could draw the conclusion that the end of a wholly owned subsidiary means the subsidiary was an experiment that failed. On the other hand, one could also draw the conclusion that DAL established Song as both a competitive response and a test bed, and given the fact that DAL now wants to incorporate the Song product for all its longer stage length domestic flights that DAL management has come to the opinion that the Song product works and that there is no longer a need to operate Song as a wholly owned subsidiary. Song has evolved from an experiment into the model for mainline domestic flights over 1,750 miles.

I agree with you, that this is a good move by DAL management. Overall it is an upgrade of the mainline product and the willingness of management to invest in expanding the Song product and integrating it into the mainline demonstrates managements conclusion that it is a succesful product for longer domestic flights.

You also bring up a valid point and that is brand confusion. That's a challenge for DAL's marketing team. Delta is a mega carrier providing service to 100s of cities around the world, from Monroe, Louisiana to Narita, Japan. You just can't do that with one type aircraft or one type of service. But that's a different issue then whether or not Song was a success or a failure.

 

[Mookie]

Where's the General??? I'm sure he's going to chime in with something very profound very soon. Also, i gotta ask him, since he was bragging about upgrading on the 88...isn't that one of the types that is going away soon in the fleet consolidation?

Never rode on song, but it's gotta be better than the mainline 75's with five pillows in coach class total...(do the female fa's get to keep the snazzy uniforms though??).

Mookie

 

[SoBeFlyer]

Song - Experiment gone right...

The FA conference call from MGMT yesterday discussed why the change was occurring. Biggest factor was to take successes of Song and roll them into mainline. Since entire fleets of aircraft are on the chopping block (MD-88/90 and 737-200) why waste money by retrofitting them first? After all, most short hauling is on the over 120 MD's (if it's not on an RJ), so only makes sense to retrofit the 57's. I think the long term goal is to make this product system wide. I haven't flown Song yet, but does anyone know if the legroom on those planes makes you more comfortable than the coach seats on a mainline 57? I know they are miserable, especially for 1,750 miles or more.

 

[G4G5]

I love all of these people who are under the belief that the Song product is not going away. Plain and simple, it is.

Unless the attitude of the Song flight attendants can be morphed into the remaining high timers, the Song product is dead because the folks who do the service will be gone. If they are somehow incorporated with the mainliners, they will be viewed as scabs and it won't take too long before their attitudes change.

Their will be no brand differentiation and the original Delta fa's will look at the retrofitted Song aircraft as mainline Delta aircraft with TV's, "just something to keep them quiet".

I think it's sad because the product was working. I hate to see mgt waste money on things like this, either stick with it or don't get involved. Delta is notorious for doing these things. How many different paint schemes have they had in the last few years? How many different aircraft have they used on the Shuttle in the last few years? How many different uniforms have the FA's and counter folks had in the last few years?

Depending on your school of thought, one could say at least they are trying something new or one could say look at all the money they have wasted. I am of the latter school of thought. You didn't need to be a marketing guru to figure out that fresh faces, low prices and TV would work. What Delta mgt is missing is it takes all the ingredients to make the cake. Now to somehow they think that by just adding TV to the back of the Delta mainline seats you are going to replicate Song, mgt is missing a few key ingredients and IMHO the big picture.

It's the complete package, TV is just a small part. People want low prices and good service, TV is just something nice that adds brand differentiation. If you don't think so just look at SWA, they are doing pretty well without TV's.

 

[Hvy]

Most of the idiots on this board, myself included, could have told DAL and UAL management this wouldn't work, so can someone please tell us why these guys deserve half a million dollars every year?

TED is working out quite well. It's making money and it's expanding. As far as UAL management making half a million dollars/year....you're a little "off." Unfortunately, they make much more at the upper level.