Swan Song for Song

[miles otoole]

I'd say pathetic is a better word for the rates than disappointing. FIX IT! You've got 12 year Bus F/O's at 76/hour, and 4 year E190 CAPTAINS making the same thing. That's what a 3 year FedEx plummer makes. Before you post that I don't know how the total compensation package works - I do. I guess if you upgrade quickly to the left seat and make more money than you ever have, it seems like you are getting over. Your're not, legacy pilots gave up 30% and a pension to match you.

There are also former Astronauts and Presidential command pilots making 70K a year in the right seat of a 737 at WN. WHat's your point?

 

[G4G5]

At WN those Astronauts and Presidential command pilots will be making north of $180K on 12 year pay rates. They are smart people and that's why they are at WN.

 

[FDJ2]

It was a roll of the dice that ultimately didn't work. The product itself was fine, and it did have an effect on the competition, but it never was self-sustaining. It was therefore irrational to keep it going.

Blue Dude, you are drawing conclusions that aren't supported by anything DAL is doing with Song. If DAL was eliminating Song service and halting the conversion of 757s to Song equipped aircraft you might have a point. But that's not happening.

DAL isn't eliminating Song, it's incorporating it into the mainline. DAL isn't eliminating its Song service or aircraft, on the contrary, DAL is doubling its Song Service in the next 2 years.

If it was a roll of the dice that didn't work, then how come the service is expanding to over 100 Song configured aircraft in the next two years?

The only people with the real numbers on Song work at the GO on Virginia Ave. and their decision to configure an additional 50 aircraft for Song service suggest that they like what they see with Song.

Now that all mainline domestic DAL flights over 1,750 miles will be equipped for Song service in the next 2 years, it makes no sense to keep Song as a separate entity. Song had two purposes, to be a competive response and to be a test bed. I suggest that the increased investment in Song service and the transformation of mainline aircraft to a Song configuration indicates that the roll of the dice seems to have worked.

 

[Blue Dude]

FDJ, the roll of the dice I was thinking of was a separate operating division and separate brand built almost solely to inflict pain on JetBlue. But as you say, there is no longer a reason to keep Song separate. Why? The brand didn't serve Delta all that well. More exactly, Song became well known in certain circles as a good product, but it only made Delta coach look bad by comparison, not JetBlue. Some passengers preferred Song over JetBlue, and vice versa, but by most accounts the products were pretty comparable, and markedly superior to most domestic coach.

Getting rid of Song is a net positive for Delta, and will serve to improve Delta as a brand, now that they're not competing aganst themselves anymore. But all the costs associated with building Song as an individual brand are now lost. Furthermore, unless the product improvements are distributed to all domestic coach, which would be very expensive, it will create brand confusion among Delta customers. It'll be a crapshoot: TV's or no TV's? Depends on the route, the equipment, maybe even the day or time slot. Nothing you can really count on, so it will be difficult to market the improvements as a service commitment. The best you can say is that on a given day, you'll probably get an airplane with TV. At least with Song, you were buying a known product. Now the product is less known.

Sure, there's more to Song than the TV's, but they do create buzz and a service that sets itself apart from other legacy coach. Now your customers won't know what to think. A marketing challenge for sure, but still I think a net positive for Delta. And the rest of us.

 

[Victor120]

Agent Smith: "Do you hear that, Mr. Anderson? That is the sound of inevitability."

http://www.neoandtrinity.net/imgs/smith_front.jpg

 

[FDJ2]

Blue Dude, I see what you're saying with reference to a different brand identity. One could draw the conclusion that the end of a wholly owned subsidiary means the subsidiary was an experiment that failed. On the other hand, one could also draw the conclusion that DAL established Song as both a competitive response and a test bed, and given the fact that DAL now wants to incorporate the Song product for all its longer stage length domestic flights that DAL management has come to the opinion that the Song product works and that there is no longer a need to operate Song as a wholly owned subsidiary. Song has evolved from an experiment into the model for mainline domestic flights over 1,750 miles.

I agree with you, that this is a good move by DAL management. Overall it is an upgrade of the mainline product and the willingness of management to invest in expanding the Song product and integrating it into the mainline demonstrates managements conclusion that it is a succesful product for longer domestic flights.

You also bring up a valid point and that is brand confusion. That's a challenge for DAL's marketing team. Delta is a mega carrier providing service to 100s of cities around the world, from Monroe, Louisiana to Narita, Japan. You just can't do that with one type aircraft or one type of service. But that's a different issue then whether or not Song was a success or a failure.

 

[Mookie]

Where's the General??? I'm sure he's going to chime in with something very profound very soon. Also, i gotta ask him, since he was bragging about upgrading on the 88...isn't that one of the types that is going away soon in the fleet consolidation?

Never rode on song, but it's gotta be better than the mainline 75's with five pillows in coach class total...(do the female fa's get to keep the snazzy uniforms though??).

Mookie

 

[SoBeFlyer]

Song - Experiment gone right...

The FA conference call from MGMT yesterday discussed why the change was occurring. Biggest factor was to take successes of Song and roll them into mainline. Since entire fleets of aircraft are on the chopping block (MD-88/90 and 737-200) why waste money by retrofitting them first? After all, most short hauling is on the over 120 MD's (if it's not on an RJ), so only makes sense to retrofit the 57's. I think the long term goal is to make this product system wide. I haven't flown Song yet, but does anyone know if the legroom on those planes makes you more comfortable than the coach seats on a mainline 57? I know they are miserable, especially for 1,750 miles or more.

 

[G4G5]

I love all of these people who are under the belief that the Song product is not going away. Plain and simple, it is.

Unless the attitude of the Song flight attendants can be morphed into the remaining high timers, the Song product is dead because the folks who do the service will be gone. If they are somehow incorporated with the mainliners, they will be viewed as scabs and it won't take too long before their attitudes change.

Their will be no brand differentiation and the original Delta fa's will look at the retrofitted Song aircraft as mainline Delta aircraft with TV's, "just something to keep them quiet".

I think it's sad because the product was working. I hate to see mgt waste money on things like this, either stick with it or don't get involved. Delta is notorious for doing these things. How many different paint schemes have they had in the last few years? How many different aircraft have they used on the Shuttle in the last few years? How many different uniforms have the FA's and counter folks had in the last few years?

Depending on your school of thought, one could say at least they are trying something new or one could say look at all the money they have wasted. I am of the latter school of thought. You didn't need to be a marketing guru to figure out that fresh faces, low prices and TV would work. What Delta mgt is missing is it takes all the ingredients to make the cake. Now to somehow they think that by just adding TV to the back of the Delta mainline seats you are going to replicate Song, mgt is missing a few key ingredients and IMHO the big picture.

It's the complete package, TV is just a small part. People want low prices and good service, TV is just something nice that adds brand differentiation. If you don't think so just look at SWA, they are doing pretty well without TV's.

 

[Hvy]

Most of the idiots on this board, myself included, could have told DAL and UAL management this wouldn't work, so can someone please tell us why these guys deserve half a million dollars every year?

TED is working out quite well. It's making money and it's expanding. As far as UAL management making half a million dollars/year....you're a little "off." Unfortunately, they make much more at the upper level.

 

[Rogue5]

Where's the General???

Shhh!

Just enjoy the sweet sound of the general's silence for a little while longer. It is rare indeed!

Whaddya think: Is he deep into spin-cycle mode trying to figure out how to play this somehow benefiting him (quicker upgrade on the M.D.?, longer layovers in Hawaii?, blah blah blah...), or just too busy eating crow?

 

[FDJ2]

Unless the attitude of the Song flight attendants can be morphed into the remaining high timers, the Song product is dead because the folks who do the service will be gone.

Actually, the Song F/As will remain. The overwhelming number of them hold mainline seniority numbers.

Will the average DAL F/A crew the growing fleet of 757s configured for Song service? I don't know, but I do believe that a few months ago they opened Song up to mainline F/As, I believe they had to "pre-qualify" for the job and "audition" just like the original Song F/As who came from the mainline.

Regardless of what some have opined on this forum, the basic fact is that DAL mainline is adopting the best of the Song product, and by introducing 1st class seating, providing even more to our business travelers. Within 2 years DAL will be flying over 100 757s outfitted for Song service coast to coast, more than doubling the current Song fleet.

 

[SoBeFlyer]

Unless the attitude of the Song flight attendants can be morphed into the remaining high timers, the Song product is dead because the folks who do the service will be gone. If they are somehow incorporated with the mainliners, they will be viewed as scabs and it won't take too long before their attitudes change.

G4G5, I smell flaimbait .... or are you serious? If the latter then you must have painted your entire home black and white to fit your view on the world. According to your posts:
Song F/A = young, energetic, happy to be there
Delta F/A = old, decrepit, hates pax and their job
What a crock...
I'm married to a DL F/A who loves her job after 8 years. She constantly makes pax and crew laugh and enjoy themselves. Her biggest complaint about the company is that they have taken tools away from them that make satisfying pax easier (pillows, blankets, meals, drinks, etc.). Take away a plumber's tool box and expect them to make their customer's happy, and you will find an unhappy plumber. Many of the senior F/A's don't want to be On-Board Leader (OBL) anymore, and so the junior ones (like my wife) get to set the tone and run the show. Song attracted mostly junior F/A's due to the risks involved in transferring. Rolling them back into the mainline mix, along with IFE and Martini's will only help all of them satisfy the pax. It's true that the mindset at Song was more spirited. Funny PAs were encouraged, where mainline they were not. I only hope the middle F/A management at mainline will take a cue from Song. One last note. Many more senior F/As are bailing due to severence packages and Auxiliary (part-time) going away.

 

[banger]

Actually, the Song F/As will remain. The overwhelming number of them hold mainline seniority numbers.
quote]

Heard this from a DAL FA supervisor: 2500 FA's to be notified of furlough 01Jan. Furloughing will begin with an equal percentage of FAs from Song and mainline until MAy when the numbers are integrated by seniority number. THen furloughing will continue from the bottom of the list. Volunteers and retirements may reduce the number of furloughees.

 

[bluejuice787]

G4G5-

I admit that this one time that I am in agreement with you.