Swan Song for Song

[miles otoole]

I'd say pathetic is a better word for the rates than disappointing. FIX IT! You've got 12 year Bus F/O's at 76/hour, and 4 year E190 CAPTAINS making the same thing. That's what a 3 year FedEx plummer makes. Before you post that I don't know how the total compensation package works - I do. I guess if you upgrade quickly to the left seat and make more money than you ever have, it seems like you are getting over. Your're not, legacy pilots gave up 30% and a pension to match you.

There are also former Astronauts and Presidential command pilots making 70K a year in the right seat of a 737 at WN. WHat's your point?

 

[G4G5]

At WN those Astronauts and Presidential command pilots will be making north of $180K on 12 year pay rates. They are smart people and that's why they are at WN.

 

[FDJ2]

It was a roll of the dice that ultimately didn't work. The product itself was fine, and it did have an effect on the competition, but it never was self-sustaining. It was therefore irrational to keep it going.

Blue Dude, you are drawing conclusions that aren't supported by anything DAL is doing with Song. If DAL was eliminating Song service and halting the conversion of 757s to Song equipped aircraft you might have a point. But that's not happening.

DAL isn't eliminating Song, it's incorporating it into the mainline. DAL isn't eliminating its Song service or aircraft, on the contrary, DAL is doubling its Song Service in the next 2 years.

If it was a roll of the dice that didn't work, then how come the service is expanding to over 100 Song configured aircraft in the next two years?

The only people with the real numbers on Song work at the GO on Virginia Ave. and their decision to configure an additional 50 aircraft for Song service suggest that they like what they see with Song.

Now that all mainline domestic DAL flights over 1,750 miles will be equipped for Song service in the next 2 years, it makes no sense to keep Song as a separate entity. Song had two purposes, to be a competive response and to be a test bed. I suggest that the increased investment in Song service and the transformation of mainline aircraft to a Song configuration indicates that the roll of the dice seems to have worked.

 

[Blue Dude]

FDJ, the roll of the dice I was thinking of was a separate operating division and separate brand built almost solely to inflict pain on JetBlue. But as you say, there is no longer a reason to keep Song separate. Why? The brand didn't serve Delta all that well. More exactly, Song became well known in certain circles as a good product, but it only made Delta coach look bad by comparison, not JetBlue. Some passengers preferred Song over JetBlue, and vice versa, but by most accounts the products were pretty comparable, and markedly superior to most domestic coach.

Getting rid of Song is a net positive for Delta, and will serve to improve Delta as a brand, now that they're not competing aganst themselves anymore. But all the costs associated with building Song as an individual brand are now lost. Furthermore, unless the product improvements are distributed to all domestic coach, which would be very expensive, it will create brand confusion among Delta customers. It'll be a crapshoot: TV's or no TV's? Depends on the route, the equipment, maybe even the day or time slot. Nothing you can really count on, so it will be difficult to market the improvements as a service commitment. The best you can say is that on a given day, you'll probably get an airplane with TV. At least with Song, you were buying a known product. Now the product is less known.

Sure, there's more to Song than the TV's, but they do create buzz and a service that sets itself apart from other legacy coach. Now your customers won't know what to think. A marketing challenge for sure, but still I think a net positive for Delta. And the rest of us.

 

[Victor120]

Agent Smith: "Do you hear that, Mr. Anderson? That is the sound of inevitability."

http://www.neoandtrinity.net/imgs/smith_front.jpg

 

[FDJ2]

Blue Dude, I see what you're saying with reference to a different brand identity. One could draw the conclusion that the end of a wholly owned subsidiary means the subsidiary was an experiment that failed. On the other hand, one could also draw the conclusion that DAL established Song as both a competitive response and a test bed, and given the fact that DAL now wants to incorporate the Song product for all its longer stage length domestic flights that DAL management has come to the opinion that the Song product works and that there is no longer a need to operate Song as a wholly owned subsidiary. Song has evolved from an experiment into the model for mainline domestic flights over 1,750 miles.

I agree with you, that this is a good move by DAL management. Overall it is an upgrade of the mainline product and the willingness of management to invest in expanding the Song product and integrating it into the mainline demonstrates managements conclusion that it is a succesful product for longer domestic flights.

You also bring up a valid point and that is brand confusion. That's a challenge for DAL's marketing team. Delta is a mega carrier providing service to 100s of cities around the world, from Monroe, Louisiana to Narita, Japan. You just can't do that with one type aircraft or one type of service. But that's a different issue then whether or not Song was a success or a failure.

 

[Mookie]

Where's the General??? I'm sure he's going to chime in with something very profound very soon. Also, i gotta ask him, since he was bragging about upgrading on the 88...isn't that one of the types that is going away soon in the fleet consolidation?

Never rode on song, but it's gotta be better than the mainline 75's with five pillows in coach class total...(do the female fa's get to keep the snazzy uniforms though??).

Mookie

 

[SoBeFlyer]

Song - Experiment gone right...

The FA conference call from MGMT yesterday discussed why the change was occurring. Biggest factor was to take successes of Song and roll them into mainline. Since entire fleets of aircraft are on the chopping block (MD-88/90 and 737-200) why waste money by retrofitting them first? After all, most short hauling is on the over 120 MD's (if it's not on an RJ), so only makes sense to retrofit the 57's. I think the long term goal is to make this product system wide. I haven't flown Song yet, but does anyone know if the legroom on those planes makes you more comfortable than the coach seats on a mainline 57? I know they are miserable, especially for 1,750 miles or more.

 

[G4G5]

I love all of these people who are under the belief that the Song product is not going away. Plain and simple, it is.

Unless the attitude of the Song flight attendants can be morphed into the remaining high timers, the Song product is dead because the folks who do the service will be gone. If they are somehow incorporated with the mainliners, they will be viewed as scabs and it won't take too long before their attitudes change.

Their will be no brand differentiation and the original Delta fa's will look at the retrofitted Song aircraft as mainline Delta aircraft with TV's, "just something to keep them quiet".

I think it's sad because the product was working. I hate to see mgt waste money on things like this, either stick with it or don't get involved. Delta is notorious for doing these things. How many different paint schemes have they had in the last few years? How many different aircraft have they used on the Shuttle in the last few years? How many different uniforms have the FA's and counter folks had in the last few years?

Depending on your school of thought, one could say at least they are trying something new or one could say look at all the money they have wasted. I am of the latter school of thought. You didn't need to be a marketing guru to figure out that fresh faces, low prices and TV would work. What Delta mgt is missing is it takes all the ingredients to make the cake. Now to somehow they think that by just adding TV to the back of the Delta mainline seats you are going to replicate Song, mgt is missing a few key ingredients and IMHO the big picture.

It's the complete package, TV is just a small part. People want low prices and good service, TV is just something nice that adds brand differentiation. If you don't think so just look at SWA, they are doing pretty well without TV's.

 

[Hvy]

Most of the idiots on this board, myself included, could have told DAL and UAL management this wouldn't work, so can someone please tell us why these guys deserve half a million dollars every year?

TED is working out quite well. It's making money and it's expanding. As far as UAL management making half a million dollars/year....you're a little "off." Unfortunately, they make much more at the upper level.

 

[Rogue5]

Where's the General???

Shhh!

Just enjoy the sweet sound of the general's silence for a little while longer. It is rare indeed!

Whaddya think: Is he deep into spin-cycle mode trying to figure out how to play this somehow benefiting him (quicker upgrade on the M.D.?, longer layovers in Hawaii?, blah blah blah...), or just too busy eating crow?

 

[FDJ2]

Unless the attitude of the Song flight attendants can be morphed into the remaining high timers, the Song product is dead because the folks who do the service will be gone.

Actually, the Song F/As will remain. The overwhelming number of them hold mainline seniority numbers.

Will the average DAL F/A crew the growing fleet of 757s configured for Song service? I don't know, but I do believe that a few months ago they opened Song up to mainline F/As, I believe they had to "pre-qualify" for the job and "audition" just like the original Song F/As who came from the mainline.

Regardless of what some have opined on this forum, the basic fact is that DAL mainline is adopting the best of the Song product, and by introducing 1st class seating, providing even more to our business travelers. Within 2 years DAL will be flying over 100 757s outfitted for Song service coast to coast, more than doubling the current Song fleet.

 

[SoBeFlyer]

Unless the attitude of the Song flight attendants can be morphed into the remaining high timers, the Song product is dead because the folks who do the service will be gone. If they are somehow incorporated with the mainliners, they will be viewed as scabs and it won't take too long before their attitudes change.

G4G5, I smell flaimbait .... or are you serious? If the latter then you must have painted your entire home black and white to fit your view on the world. According to your posts:
Song F/A = young, energetic, happy to be there
Delta F/A = old, decrepit, hates pax and their job
What a crock...
I'm married to a DL F/A who loves her job after 8 years. She constantly makes pax and crew laugh and enjoy themselves. Her biggest complaint about the company is that they have taken tools away from them that make satisfying pax easier (pillows, blankets, meals, drinks, etc.). Take away a plumber's tool box and expect them to make their customer's happy, and you will find an unhappy plumber. Many of the senior F/A's don't want to be On-Board Leader (OBL) anymore, and so the junior ones (like my wife) get to set the tone and run the show. Song attracted mostly junior F/A's due to the risks involved in transferring. Rolling them back into the mainline mix, along with IFE and Martini's will only help all of them satisfy the pax. It's true that the mindset at Song was more spirited. Funny PAs were encouraged, where mainline they were not. I only hope the middle F/A management at mainline will take a cue from Song. One last note. Many more senior F/As are bailing due to severence packages and Auxiliary (part-time) going away.

 

[banger]

Actually, the Song F/As will remain. The overwhelming number of them hold mainline seniority numbers.
quote]

Heard this from a DAL FA supervisor: 2500 FA's to be notified of furlough 01Jan. Furloughing will begin with an equal percentage of FAs from Song and mainline until MAy when the numbers are integrated by seniority number. THen furloughing will continue from the bottom of the list. Volunteers and retirements may reduce the number of furloughees.

 

[bluejuice787]

G4G5-

I admit that this one time that I am in agreement with you.

 

[G4G5]

G4G5, I smell flaimbait .... or are you serious? If the latter then you must have painted your entire home black and white to fit your view on the world. According to your posts:
Song F/A = young, energetic, happy to be there
Delta F/A = old, decrepit, hates pax and their job
What a crock...
I'm married to a DL F/A who loves her job after 8 years. She constantly makes pax and crew laugh and enjoy themselves. Her biggest complaint about the company is that they have taken tools away from them that make satisfying pax easier (pillows, blankets, meals, drinks, etc.). Take away a plumber's tool box and expect them to make their customer's happy, and you will find an unhappy plumber. Many of the senior F/A's don't want to be On-Board Leader (OBL) anymore, and so the junior ones (like my wife) get to set the tone and run the show. Song attracted mostly junior F/A's due to the risks involved in transferring. Rolling them back into the mainline mix, along with IFE and Martini's will only help all of them satisfy the pax. It's true that the mindset at Song was more spirited. Funny PAs were encouraged, where mainline they were not. I only hope the middle F/A management at mainline will take a cue from Song. One last note. Many more senior F/As are bailing due to severence packages and Auxiliary (part-time) going away.

I too am real close to a Delta FA, family relative. She is pissed. She is angry over the way the way the company promised them the world prior to the last union vote only to take away most everything they offered and then jammed pass cuts and pref bidding down their throats with nothing in return. Her attitude is that the senior mama's can't afford to retire or won't retire until Delta mgt has determined how they will treat the current retirees. You can't expect someone to jump at a package that might wind up in the PBGC's lap. Her opinion is that most of the new hire Song Fa's will be tossed out on the street with the upcoming furloughs and the mainline mama's will continue their ways.

The plumber analogy doesn't cut it, how are the FA's at JB and SWA doing it with no tools?

They only opened up Song to the mainline mama's a few months ago. How many FA's do you think actually got a full does of the Song spirit in just 3 or 4 months. If they had done it from day one(offered it up to mainline mama's) that would be one thing but that was not the case. They hired off the street, out of seniority and then kept the senior folks off the flights. You can't go back now and tell me that the few remaining Scabs will be able to bring the Song spirit over to mainline when they are out numbered 10:1.

Senior Fa's like the long flights, just like pilots if the bid goes in seniority then some of the new hires will never see the retrofitted aircraft.

Plain and simple the idea sux, you can't take a language qualified or senior mama on a ATL/JFK-Europe business flight and turn her into a Jetblue or SWA fa on her next flight to LAX. But somehow that's what you folks are telling me is going to happen and it will happen all because they added a TV to the back of the Head rest?

 

[G4G5]

Actually, the Song F/As will remain. The overwhelming number of them hold mainline seniority numbers.
quote]

Heard this from a DAL FA supervisor: 2500 FA's to be notified of furlough 01Jan. Furloughing will begin with an equal percentage of FAs from Song and mainline until MAy when the numbers are integrated by seniority number. THen furloughing will continue from the bottom of the list. Volunteers and retirements may reduce the number of furloughees.

That was the number that I heard someplace else. It's unfortunate, these people were promissed that they would become part of something special (Song). They did a good job and wound up getting tossed under the bus.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Well considering we have had over 2000 pilots retire in the last three years, I think there is a chance we will get by without any pilot furloughs. If there are some, it won't be many.

I find it hard to believe that, even with the 250 PRP's, DALPA expects few if any furloughes.

My logic: Is Delta over manned by over 2000 F/A's?? If not the plan to furlough 2500 of them has to translate into at least a thousand pilot furloughes.

Delta can't be undermanned by 1000 or so pilots, can they?? That is the only way I can see few or no pilot furloughes. (Few being 200 or less).

Unless....Delta allows the pilot force to become overmanned.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Maybe the threat to furlough 2500 F/A's is meant to encourage the pilot group to get negotiations going for a new 100 seat jet for mainline.

 

[G4G5]

I think the issue is capacity cut backs. If staffing requires approx 12 pilots per aircraft how many FA's are staffed per aircraft?

I don't have access to the DAL FA numbers but AA has approx 20,000 FA's and they operate approx 740 aircraft. In round numbers that's 27 per aircraft. For DAL to furlough 2,500 FA that would mean eliminating approx 90 aircraft. Not impossible.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

I think the issue is capacity cut backs. If staffing requires approx 12 pilots per aircraft how many FA's are staffed per aircraft?

I don't have access to the DAL FA numbers but AA has approx 20,000 FA's and they operate approx 740 aircraft. In round numbers that's 27 per aircraft. For DAL to furlough 2,500 FA that would mean eliminating approx 90 aircraft. Not impossible.

I think AA has almost 10K pilots actively flying. Also, if you figure DAL has at least 12 pilots per aircraft that is 1080 pilots for 90 planes.

 

[G4G5]

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/8/16/

7,432 / 530 aircraft = 14 pilots per aircraft.

Fleet types are defiantly on DAL mgt's list of things to cut.
767-200 - 10
737-200 - 52
MD90 - 16

IMHO here are 78 aircraft that are defiantly on the chopping block. Now how many of the other fleet types are coming up on high time or high dollar inspections? How many of the remaining fleet types have bad leases that DAL would love to get out of? I am sure that you could find 12 more undesirable aircraft.

 

[Heavy Set]

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/8/16/

7,432 / 530 aircraft = 14 pilots per aircraft.

Fleet types are defiantly on DAL mgt's list of things to cut.
767-200 - 10
737-200 - 52
MD90 - 16

IMHO here are 78 aircraft that are defiantly on the chopping block. Now how many of the other fleet types are coming up on high time or high dollar inspections? How many of the remaining fleet types have bad leases that DAL would love to get out of? I am sure that you could find 12 more undesirable aircraft.

As far as I know, DAL owns the MD90s and they aren't scheduled to leave until 2011-2012. They are great for hot-and-high conditions out of SLC.

The 767-200s will be going to ABX at a rate of one per quarter. So, if DAL loses any MD-88s to the lessors, the 767-200s would likely remain a bit longer to make up for capacity loss. The 737-200s would also likely remain for awhile if some of the MD-88s are taken by the lessors. That is what I have heard from a few knowledgeable Delta buddies.

 

[SoBeFlyer]

...only to take away most everything they offered and then jammed pass cuts and pref bidding down their throats with nothing in return...

There will be no pass cuts, and pref bidding favors the junior F/As and will favor them more in the months to come...

If they had done it from day one(offered it up to mainline mama's) that would be one thing but that was not the case. They hired off the street, out of seniority and then kept the senior folks off the flights.

Not true. Song was open to all F/As when it started. NOT ONE SINGLE SONG F/A WAS HIRED OFF THE STREET. Also, I personally know several VERY SENIOR F/As who went Song. It was a three year commitment with several options after those three years. It's no coincidence that May will be the end integration month, as this will be three years since startup of Song. Delta planned on it being an experiment from the git-go.

If your relative is so pissed, perhaps she is the mainline F/A type you are complaining about. There are plenty of senior mama's who are great, and plenty of junior ones that have terrible attitudes. It's real simple... those who hate their jobs should leave, those who are satisfied should stay. I'm betting the furlough numbers will be lower than expected due to the voluntary separations.

 

[FDJ2]

Actually, the Song F/As will remain. The overwhelming number of them hold mainline seniority numbers.
quote]

Heard this from a DAL FA supervisor: 2500 FA's to be notified of furlough 01Jan. Furloughing will begin with an equal percentage of FAs from Song and mainline until MAy when the numbers are integrated by seniority number.

That should help out the more junior Song F/As, of course some of the best Song F/As are some of the ex PAAs F/As living in Fla. They're pretty senior.

 

[FDJ2]

That was the number that I heard someplace else. It's unfortunate, these people were promissed that they would become part of something special (Song). They did a good job and wound up getting tossed under the bus.

Well it sounds like they will be furloughing in equal percentages. Since there are far more mainline F/As then Song F/As the bulk of the furloughed F/As will be mainline.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Well, whatever Mother Delta does she has little room for error.

They were already over 20 billion in debt - then I heard they to mortgage everything left in order to raise the DIP financing for bankruptcy.

In short, Delta is 100% hocked, all the assets are encumbered, and there is nothing left to serve as collateral in case this first walk through the courts fails (like US Air's did).

Anybody else confirm this?

 

[FDJ2]

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/8/16/

7,432 / 530 aircraft = 14 pilots per aircraft.

Fleet types are defiantly on DAL mgt's list of things to cut.
767-200 - 10
737-200 - 52
MD90 - 16

IMHO here are 78 aircraft that are defiantly on the chopping block. Now how many of the other fleet types are coming up on high time or high dollar inspections? How many of the remaining fleet types have bad leases that DAL would love to get out of? I am sure that you could find 12 more undesirable aircraft.

There are 75 aircraft definately on the chopping block over the next four years. Not all those aircraft are currently in service. The fleet types to be eliminated are the 767-200, 737-300 and 737-200.

DAL also has firm orders over the next 36 months for 2 777s and 41 737-800s. DAL has options for 3 767-300s, 3 767-400s and 6 737-800s over the next 36 months. The earliest deliveries are scheduled for 2007.

 

[michael707767]

Delta can't be undermanned by 1000 or so pilots, can they?? That is the only way I can see few or no pilot furloughes. (Few being 200 or less).

.

actually, based on the results of the last bid, we are overmanned by about 150 pilots. But that is still with some PRPs. We are very definately overmanned with flight attendants. The airline has become smaller each year for the past couple of years. The pilots have been drawn down with retirements. The flight attendants have not been drawn down at all.

Look, I am not saying there definately will not be more furloughs. Some of the things that determine that are out of Deltas hands. I do think if they are able to stick with the fleet plan they have now, we can likely avoid more furloughs. But if the fleet plan has to come way down due to lessors taking their aircraft back, all bets are off.

 

[michael707767]

They hired off the street, out of seniority and then kept the senior folks off the flights. You can't go back now and tell me that the few remaining Scabs will be able to bring the Song spirit over to mainline when they are out numbered 10:1.

incedently, Song never hired FAs off the street.