Swan Song for Song

[Rogue5]

Where's the General???

Shhh!

Just enjoy the sweet sound of the general's silence for a little while longer. It is rare indeed!

Whaddya think: Is he deep into spin-cycle mode trying to figure out how to play this somehow benefiting him (quicker upgrade on the M.D.?, longer layovers in Hawaii?, blah blah blah...), or just too busy eating crow?

 

[FDJ2]

Unless the attitude of the Song flight attendants can be morphed into the remaining high timers, the Song product is dead because the folks who do the service will be gone.

Actually, the Song F/As will remain. The overwhelming number of them hold mainline seniority numbers.

Will the average DAL F/A crew the growing fleet of 757s configured for Song service? I don't know, but I do believe that a few months ago they opened Song up to mainline F/As, I believe they had to "pre-qualify" for the job and "audition" just like the original Song F/As who came from the mainline.

Regardless of what some have opined on this forum, the basic fact is that DAL mainline is adopting the best of the Song product, and by introducing 1st class seating, providing even more to our business travelers. Within 2 years DAL will be flying over 100 757s outfitted for Song service coast to coast, more than doubling the current Song fleet.

 

[SoBeFlyer]

Unless the attitude of the Song flight attendants can be morphed into the remaining high timers, the Song product is dead because the folks who do the service will be gone. If they are somehow incorporated with the mainliners, they will be viewed as scabs and it won't take too long before their attitudes change.

G4G5, I smell flaimbait .... or are you serious? If the latter then you must have painted your entire home black and white to fit your view on the world. According to your posts:
Song F/A = young, energetic, happy to be there
Delta F/A = old, decrepit, hates pax and their job
What a crock...
I'm married to a DL F/A who loves her job after 8 years. She constantly makes pax and crew laugh and enjoy themselves. Her biggest complaint about the company is that they have taken tools away from them that make satisfying pax easier (pillows, blankets, meals, drinks, etc.). Take away a plumber's tool box and expect them to make their customer's happy, and you will find an unhappy plumber. Many of the senior F/A's don't want to be On-Board Leader (OBL) anymore, and so the junior ones (like my wife) get to set the tone and run the show. Song attracted mostly junior F/A's due to the risks involved in transferring. Rolling them back into the mainline mix, along with IFE and Martini's will only help all of them satisfy the pax. It's true that the mindset at Song was more spirited. Funny PAs were encouraged, where mainline they were not. I only hope the middle F/A management at mainline will take a cue from Song. One last note. Many more senior F/As are bailing due to severence packages and Auxiliary (part-time) going away.

 

[banger]

Actually, the Song F/As will remain. The overwhelming number of them hold mainline seniority numbers.
quote]

Heard this from a DAL FA supervisor: 2500 FA's to be notified of furlough 01Jan. Furloughing will begin with an equal percentage of FAs from Song and mainline until MAy when the numbers are integrated by seniority number. THen furloughing will continue from the bottom of the list. Volunteers and retirements may reduce the number of furloughees.

 

[bluejuice787]

G4G5-

I admit that this one time that I am in agreement with you.

 

[G4G5]

G4G5, I smell flaimbait .... or are you serious? If the latter then you must have painted your entire home black and white to fit your view on the world. According to your posts:
Song F/A = young, energetic, happy to be there
Delta F/A = old, decrepit, hates pax and their job
What a crock...
I'm married to a DL F/A who loves her job after 8 years. She constantly makes pax and crew laugh and enjoy themselves. Her biggest complaint about the company is that they have taken tools away from them that make satisfying pax easier (pillows, blankets, meals, drinks, etc.). Take away a plumber's tool box and expect them to make their customer's happy, and you will find an unhappy plumber. Many of the senior F/A's don't want to be On-Board Leader (OBL) anymore, and so the junior ones (like my wife) get to set the tone and run the show. Song attracted mostly junior F/A's due to the risks involved in transferring. Rolling them back into the mainline mix, along with IFE and Martini's will only help all of them satisfy the pax. It's true that the mindset at Song was more spirited. Funny PAs were encouraged, where mainline they were not. I only hope the middle F/A management at mainline will take a cue from Song. One last note. Many more senior F/As are bailing due to severence packages and Auxiliary (part-time) going away.

I too am real close to a Delta FA, family relative. She is pissed. She is angry over the way the way the company promised them the world prior to the last union vote only to take away most everything they offered and then jammed pass cuts and pref bidding down their throats with nothing in return. Her attitude is that the senior mama's can't afford to retire or won't retire until Delta mgt has determined how they will treat the current retirees. You can't expect someone to jump at a package that might wind up in the PBGC's lap. Her opinion is that most of the new hire Song Fa's will be tossed out on the street with the upcoming furloughs and the mainline mama's will continue their ways.

The plumber analogy doesn't cut it, how are the FA's at JB and SWA doing it with no tools?

They only opened up Song to the mainline mama's a few months ago. How many FA's do you think actually got a full does of the Song spirit in just 3 or 4 months. If they had done it from day one(offered it up to mainline mama's) that would be one thing but that was not the case. They hired off the street, out of seniority and then kept the senior folks off the flights. You can't go back now and tell me that the few remaining Scabs will be able to bring the Song spirit over to mainline when they are out numbered 10:1.

Senior Fa's like the long flights, just like pilots if the bid goes in seniority then some of the new hires will never see the retrofitted aircraft.

Plain and simple the idea sux, you can't take a language qualified or senior mama on a ATL/JFK-Europe business flight and turn her into a Jetblue or SWA fa on her next flight to LAX. But somehow that's what you folks are telling me is going to happen and it will happen all because they added a TV to the back of the Head rest?

 

[G4G5]

Actually, the Song F/As will remain. The overwhelming number of them hold mainline seniority numbers.
quote]

Heard this from a DAL FA supervisor: 2500 FA's to be notified of furlough 01Jan. Furloughing will begin with an equal percentage of FAs from Song and mainline until MAy when the numbers are integrated by seniority number. THen furloughing will continue from the bottom of the list. Volunteers and retirements may reduce the number of furloughees.

That was the number that I heard someplace else. It's unfortunate, these people were promissed that they would become part of something special (Song). They did a good job and wound up getting tossed under the bus.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Well considering we have had over 2000 pilots retire in the last three years, I think there is a chance we will get by without any pilot furloughs. If there are some, it won't be many.

I find it hard to believe that, even with the 250 PRP's, DALPA expects few if any furloughes.

My logic: Is Delta over manned by over 2000 F/A's?? If not the plan to furlough 2500 of them has to translate into at least a thousand pilot furloughes.

Delta can't be undermanned by 1000 or so pilots, can they?? That is the only way I can see few or no pilot furloughes. (Few being 200 or less).

Unless....Delta allows the pilot force to become overmanned.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Maybe the threat to furlough 2500 F/A's is meant to encourage the pilot group to get negotiations going for a new 100 seat jet for mainline.

 

[G4G5]

I think the issue is capacity cut backs. If staffing requires approx 12 pilots per aircraft how many FA's are staffed per aircraft?

I don't have access to the DAL FA numbers but AA has approx 20,000 FA's and they operate approx 740 aircraft. In round numbers that's 27 per aircraft. For DAL to furlough 2,500 FA that would mean eliminating approx 90 aircraft. Not impossible.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

I think the issue is capacity cut backs. If staffing requires approx 12 pilots per aircraft how many FA's are staffed per aircraft?

I don't have access to the DAL FA numbers but AA has approx 20,000 FA's and they operate approx 740 aircraft. In round numbers that's 27 per aircraft. For DAL to furlough 2,500 FA that would mean eliminating approx 90 aircraft. Not impossible.

I think AA has almost 10K pilots actively flying. Also, if you figure DAL has at least 12 pilots per aircraft that is 1080 pilots for 90 planes.

 

[G4G5]

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/8/16/

7,432 / 530 aircraft = 14 pilots per aircraft.

Fleet types are defiantly on DAL mgt's list of things to cut.
767-200 - 10
737-200 - 52
MD90 - 16

IMHO here are 78 aircraft that are defiantly on the chopping block. Now how many of the other fleet types are coming up on high time or high dollar inspections? How many of the remaining fleet types have bad leases that DAL would love to get out of? I am sure that you could find 12 more undesirable aircraft.

 

[Heavy Set]

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/8/16/

7,432 / 530 aircraft = 14 pilots per aircraft.

Fleet types are defiantly on DAL mgt's list of things to cut.
767-200 - 10
737-200 - 52
MD90 - 16

IMHO here are 78 aircraft that are defiantly on the chopping block. Now how many of the other fleet types are coming up on high time or high dollar inspections? How many of the remaining fleet types have bad leases that DAL would love to get out of? I am sure that you could find 12 more undesirable aircraft.

As far as I know, DAL owns the MD90s and they aren't scheduled to leave until 2011-2012. They are great for hot-and-high conditions out of SLC.

The 767-200s will be going to ABX at a rate of one per quarter. So, if DAL loses any MD-88s to the lessors, the 767-200s would likely remain a bit longer to make up for capacity loss. The 737-200s would also likely remain for awhile if some of the MD-88s are taken by the lessors. That is what I have heard from a few knowledgeable Delta buddies.

 

[SoBeFlyer]

...only to take away most everything they offered and then jammed pass cuts and pref bidding down their throats with nothing in return...

There will be no pass cuts, and pref bidding favors the junior F/As and will favor them more in the months to come...

If they had done it from day one(offered it up to mainline mama's) that would be one thing but that was not the case. They hired off the street, out of seniority and then kept the senior folks off the flights.

Not true. Song was open to all F/As when it started. NOT ONE SINGLE SONG F/A WAS HIRED OFF THE STREET. Also, I personally know several VERY SENIOR F/As who went Song. It was a three year commitment with several options after those three years. It's no coincidence that May will be the end integration month, as this will be three years since startup of Song. Delta planned on it being an experiment from the git-go.

If your relative is so pissed, perhaps she is the mainline F/A type you are complaining about. There are plenty of senior mama's who are great, and plenty of junior ones that have terrible attitudes. It's real simple... those who hate their jobs should leave, those who are satisfied should stay. I'm betting the furlough numbers will be lower than expected due to the voluntary separations.

 

[FDJ2]

Actually, the Song F/As will remain. The overwhelming number of them hold mainline seniority numbers.
quote]

Heard this from a DAL FA supervisor: 2500 FA's to be notified of furlough 01Jan. Furloughing will begin with an equal percentage of FAs from Song and mainline until MAy when the numbers are integrated by seniority number.

That should help out the more junior Song F/As, of course some of the best Song F/As are some of the ex PAAs F/As living in Fla. They're pretty senior.

 

[FDJ2]

That was the number that I heard someplace else. It's unfortunate, these people were promissed that they would become part of something special (Song). They did a good job and wound up getting tossed under the bus.

Well it sounds like they will be furloughing in equal percentages. Since there are far more mainline F/As then Song F/As the bulk of the furloughed F/As will be mainline.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Well, whatever Mother Delta does she has little room for error.

They were already over 20 billion in debt - then I heard they to mortgage everything left in order to raise the DIP financing for bankruptcy.

In short, Delta is 100% hocked, all the assets are encumbered, and there is nothing left to serve as collateral in case this first walk through the courts fails (like US Air's did).

Anybody else confirm this?

 

[FDJ2]

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/8/16/

7,432 / 530 aircraft = 14 pilots per aircraft.

Fleet types are defiantly on DAL mgt's list of things to cut.
767-200 - 10
737-200 - 52
MD90 - 16

IMHO here are 78 aircraft that are defiantly on the chopping block. Now how many of the other fleet types are coming up on high time or high dollar inspections? How many of the remaining fleet types have bad leases that DAL would love to get out of? I am sure that you could find 12 more undesirable aircraft.

There are 75 aircraft definately on the chopping block over the next four years. Not all those aircraft are currently in service. The fleet types to be eliminated are the 767-200, 737-300 and 737-200.

DAL also has firm orders over the next 36 months for 2 777s and 41 737-800s. DAL has options for 3 767-300s, 3 767-400s and 6 737-800s over the next 36 months. The earliest deliveries are scheduled for 2007.

 

[michael707767]

Delta can't be undermanned by 1000 or so pilots, can they?? That is the only way I can see few or no pilot furloughes. (Few being 200 or less).

.

actually, based on the results of the last bid, we are overmanned by about 150 pilots. But that is still with some PRPs. We are very definately overmanned with flight attendants. The airline has become smaller each year for the past couple of years. The pilots have been drawn down with retirements. The flight attendants have not been drawn down at all.

Look, I am not saying there definately will not be more furloughs. Some of the things that determine that are out of Deltas hands. I do think if they are able to stick with the fleet plan they have now, we can likely avoid more furloughs. But if the fleet plan has to come way down due to lessors taking their aircraft back, all bets are off.

 

[michael707767]

They hired off the street, out of seniority and then kept the senior folks off the flights. You can't go back now and tell me that the few remaining Scabs will be able to bring the Song spirit over to mainline when they are out numbered 10:1.

incedently, Song never hired FAs off the street.