SWA took one step closer to being a regional carrier

[radarlove]

Radarlove,

I don't think you understand what they are trying to tell you about PBS. It could be the greatest scheduling system in the world however our union has historically overlooked important details that end up screwing us in the end. Management has always negotiated better than unions because unions don't hire professional negotiatiors for whatever reason. Probably because pilots "know it all".

Knowing that fact we don't want it.

Well then, you're blaming PBS for something that is unrelated (your fear of union incompetance). Again, they're unrelated. It's like saying, "We at SWA can't fly Airbuses, because we would get lower pay."

What would Airbuses have to do with lower pay? Nothing, but then you say, "Well our union would negotiate that, so no Airbuses."

PBS is an extremely logical system for maximizing your own personal utility. The fact that you have no confidence in your union is unrelated. On the other hand, you guys seem to have a pretty outstanding contract, so maybe your fears are overstated.

 

[enigma]

Just a quick couple of items.

First, Albie is correct. Don't fear nor look down on people looking to leave. Their departure can be your biggest weapon in your own battle for QOL. The company values the people that it has so carefully selected and nurtured. Losing valued employees will do more to convince the company to improve conditions than almost anything else.

Second, My friends who happen to have had experience with pref bidding at TWA are convinced that it is the best thing since sliced bread. However, they are quick to point out that they tested it for close to a full year to work out the bugs before implementation.

Third, In my base and fleet at NK, last months bid lines were approximately 65% relief and reserve. Half of the pilots ended up with 13 or 14 days off, and those awarded a relief line, didn't learn their schedule until a week before the line began. I say that to say this; it can be so much worse. I have sympathy for pilots who are facing the loss of any QOL, but the market will rule. I don't want SWA pilots to give up ANYTHING because I still have aspirations of working with them. BUT, if seems inevitable that something is going to have to give, and I like the way that both SWA and SWAPA are approaching change. Let me say it this way, SWA boys, having a GO that allows a test period, and then gives you a month or so to try it your way is SO MUCH BETTER than having an owner who makes any change he wants; forcing the pilots to "fly it then grieve it". In other words, be thankful that you work for a CEO who still values your input.

Now, back to my current project. I'll check back on Friday.

enigma

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

I'm not quite sure why all you guys are worked up about PBS. We use it at NWA, and everybody loves it.

True, we have nuke in the pocket. The MEC can pull the plug on it at any time. The "parameters" of the program are monitored. But that shouldn't be a big deal for the SWA pilot group to negotiate.

It's true that it eliminates the monthly transition (no dropping for conflicting trips). Also true that it won't place a trip over a known absence (vacation, training, mil leave).

Your monthly bid is made up of bid groups. Each bid group is like a little computer program. First you tell it how much credit you want (max, min or wide), if you want to commute (it works to group trips together), and if you want to claim credit for certain events (like training..we have the option to take it as pay only or pay/credit).

Then you tell it if you have any specific days off you want.

Once you've done that, you tell it what kind of trips you want (trip length, credit, start day, individual trips, etc.) or what kind to avoid (duty day, layover time, layover city, etc). Each AVOID or AWARD command has about 12-15 different commands. The amount of customization is almost endless. You can make a whole bid group nothing but specific trips OR as general as AWARD TRIP LENGTH = 4.

If the system cannot build a schedule into you designated credit window, it starts over, and goes to your next bid group. You can have about 20 or so well designed bid groups, and the typical strategy is to start with a highly specific, pie in the sky request, and then gradually back off the restrictions.

There is ALWAYS of open time left, even with this system. It's just not clumped together at the beginning of the month.

It's just as easy to get a fat vacation with PBS as with hard lines, but its much more flexible. At NWA, each day of vacation is worth a certain amount of credit. If I had 7 days worth of vacation, that number, 3:30, is multiplied by 7, and then deducted from the credit target. Then, you can either request trips that give you a huge block off, or you can tell the system to AVOID WORK on the dates immediately before and/or after your vacation. OR you can slide your vacation back and forth up to 3 days. OR if you don't have anything specific planned, you can just take the credit, and wind up with a line with lots of extra days off scattered around. Since the system has a lower credit target, you wind up with fewer trips.

Let's say you are commuter and you are lazy here's what your bid might look like:

Set MINSKED (sets a 3 hour window starting at the minimum for the month)
SET COMMUTE 3,4 (this will build a line with 3 commutes with 4 days off)
SET COMMUTE 3,3 (same, but with 3 days off)
SET COMMUTE 4,3 (this will build a line with 4 commutes, with 3 days off)
AVOID WORK DATES = FEB10,FEB11,FEB12,FEB13 (i've got to judge the over-60 wet T-shirt contest down at the Y those days, but you can put in as many off days as you think you can get away with)

The system will cycle through this bid group with each commute command, top to bottom, trying to find a solution. If you are awarded smaller trips, it will place them back to back.

SET CHECKIN=1300 (sets a 1300 report for the first day of each trip so you can commute in)
SET CHECKOUT=2000 (sets a 2000 report out for each trip so you can commute home)
AVOID DUTY LEGS > 5 (minimized the number of flights per day)
AVOID LAYOVER < 1100 (if you don't like short nights)
AWARD TRIP LENGTH = 4 (awards 4 day trips not avoided)
AWARD TRIP LENGTH = 3 (same, for 3 day trips).
CLEAR START AND RESET (if it doesn't find a solution, this tells it to move to the next bid group).

This is just an example...

The true power of this system is it's recursive processing (it always works to better the whole pilot group solution, even as it moves up and down the list). Systems like this work out well because every pilot bids something slightly differet. Hard lines are ALWAYS a compromise, but with this, you get what you want, right out of the box.



Nu

 

[Tripower455]

Heyas,

I'm not quite sure why all you guys are worked up about PBS. We use it at NWA, and everybody loves it.

True, we have nuke in the pocket. The MEC can pull the plug on it at any time. The "parameters" of the program are monitored. But that shouldn't be a big deal for the SWA pilot group to negotiate.

It's true that it eliminates the monthly transition (no dropping for conflicting trips). Also true that it won't place a trip over a known absence (vacation, training, mil leave).

Your monthly bid is made up of bid groups. Each bid group is like a little computer program. First you tell it how much credit you want (max, min or wide), if you want to commute (it works to group trips together), and if you want to claim credit for certain events (like training..we have the option to take it as pay only or pay/credit).

Then you tell it if you have any specific days off you want.

Once you've done that, you tell it what kind of trips you want (trip length, credit, start day, individual trips, etc.) or what kind to avoid (duty day, layover time, layover city, etc). Each AVOID or AWARD command has about 12-15 different commands. The amount of customization is almost endless. You can make a whole bid group nothing but specific trips OR as general as AWARD TRIP LENGTH = 4.

If the system cannot build a schedule into you designated credit window, it starts over, and goes to your next bid group. You can have about 20 or so well designed bid groups, and the typical strategy is to start with a highly specific, pie in the sky request, and then gradually back off the restrictions.

There is ALWAYS of open time left, even with this system. It's just not clumped together at the beginning of the month.

It's just as easy to get a fat vacation with PBS as with hard lines, but its much more flexible. At NWA, each day of vacation is worth a certain amount of credit. If I had 7 days worth of vacation, that number, 3:30, is multiplied by 7, and then deducted from the credit target. Then, you can either request trips that give you a huge block off, or you can tell the system to AVOID WORK on the dates immediately before and/or after your vacation. OR you can slide your vacation back and forth up to 3 days. OR if you don't have anything specific planned, you can just take the credit, and wind up with a line with lots of extra days off scattered around. Since the system has a lower credit target, you wind up with fewer trips.

Let's say you are commuter and you are lazy here's what your bid might look like:

Set MINSKED (sets a 3 hour window starting at the minimum for the month)
SET COMMUTE 3,4 (this will build a line with 3 commutes with 4 days off)
SET COMMUTE 3,3 (same, but with 3 days off)
SET COMMUTE 4,3 (this will build a line with 4 commutes, with 3 days off)
AVOID WORK DATES = FEB10,FEB11,FEB12,FEB13 (i've got to judge the over-60 wet T-shirt contest down at the Y those days, but you can put in as many off days as you think you can get away with)

The system will cycle through this bid group with each commute command, top to bottom, trying to find a solution. If you are awarded smaller trips, it will place them back to back.

SET CHECKIN=1300 (sets a 1300 report for the first day of each trip so you can commute in)
SET CHECKOUT=2000 (sets a 2000 report out for each trip so you can commute home)
AVOID DUTY LEGS > 5 (minimized the number of flights per day)
AVOID LAYOVER < 1100 (if you don't like short nights)
AWARD TRIP LENGTH = 4 (awards 4 day trips not avoided)
AWARD TRIP LENGTH = 3 (same, for 3 day trips).
CLEAR START AND RESET (if it doesn't find a solution, this tells it to move to the next bid group).

This is just an example...

The true power of this system is it's recursive processing (it always works to better the whole pilot group solution, even as it moves up and down the list). Systems like this work out well because every pilot bids something slightly differet. Hard lines are ALWAYS a compromise, but with this, you get what you want, right out of the box.



Nu

Swapa will get nuked in the negotiations. It will take us until a year AFTER it is implemented to figure out all the different ways.........

PBS can be good or bad. It is all in the details. We, as a group, don't have the experience or will to work out the details in basic contract language. With all of the complexities and required parameters needed to maintain a decent QOL with PBS, there is no way we'd even break even on QOL.

I won't vote for it, given the chance.

 

[Jim Smyth]

Well each airline is different and unless you work for SWA you probably dont understand our system. So plain and simple, SWA wants us all to fly alot. If they could get us all to fly 1000 hours per year they could ellimnate 30 percent of the current senority list!

So if SWA wants PBS what does that tell you? It tells me that I will have to work more days per year since I usually fly my 3 on 4 off schedule and put in my 700 hours per year right now. I like the way our vacation system works and the amount of time off you can get with vacation overlap drop if thats what you want. I enjoy my days off and knowing how our system works I know what will happen if PBS gets on the property. So I hope it gets voted down if and when its introduced/voted on!

 

[radarlove]

I won't vote for it, given the chance.

See? Luddite. I give up. Three people have shown you your errors and you cover your ears and say "nananananna".

Some people in this world don't want their cheese moved.

It doens't matter to any of us three whether you vote for it or not, but all three of us have had great experiences--which you couldn't care about, you've already set your mind even though you have not a clue, nor experience about the subject. Folks like you make me nuts on this board, I don't know why I even bothered the time to type.

At least you're not rude, SWA hires nice folks, but they sure seem to be stuck in a time machine.

 

[DH2WN]

See? Luddite. I give up. Three people have shown you your errors and you cover your ears and say "nananananna".

Some people in this world don't want their cheese moved.

It doens't matter to any of us three whether you vote for it or not, but all three of us have had great experiences--which you couldn't care about, you've already set your mind even though you have not a clue, nor experience about the subject. Folks like you make me nuts on this board, I don't know why I even bothered the time to type.

At least you're not rude, SWA hires nice folks, but they sure seem to be stuck in a time machine.

It's not stuck in a time machine when you know your union is to stupid to implement it properly. This test period is a prime example. PBS would destroy all happiness we have because we don't know how to make it work.

 

[radarlove]

It's not stuck in a time machine when you know your union is to stupid to implement it properly. This test period is a prime example. PBS would destroy all happiness we have because we don't know how to make it work.

I dunno...why don't you fix your union? That's the easy answer.

Anyway, it's just that some NWA guy probably spent 30 minutes composing a really thoughtful response and the response is, "So what?"

It's like if I said, "I love Netflix and here's why!", and you came back and said, "Doesn't matter. I KNOW they're going to rip me off somehow. It'll just happen. I always get ripped off."

It reminds my of my old, old days on the MEC when guys just were blockheads about anything (Anything!) new.

Who cares if SWA gets PBS? I sure don't. You guys deserve what you get, it sounds like. No wonder you turn off your EFIS, you probably have guys that don't believe it works.

 

[airlinepilot]

PBS vs our current sysytem at SWA

I have worked under PBS for several years at another company. Unfortunately pilots all think their aircraft and scheduling system are the best since they use it daily. For those non-SWA pilots I have to tell you the present system (which you cannot understand since you don't use it) we use has a GREAT DEAL of flexibility for quality of life, vacation and increase or decrease in pay. I have used PBS and what we have is a great deal better for all concerned. Our current system is much like "ding..free to move around the country"....there is no way PBS will give us the freedom in our schedule. PBS is a non-starter when compared to what we have now.....even if we keep the current side letters.....we would still be much better off.

 

[OffHot]

Radarlove we (SWA pilots), do appreciate your comments as PBS is a system that most of use do not understand. Like wise our present system isn't broke, its just that the company is looking for even more productivity out of our pilots. I'm not sure how your productivitly is for your pilot group, but I'm guessing that if we are not more productive we are very close. It's tough for a lot of use to change systems when we already work 3 on 4 off and are very productive doing it. Please keep the informatin coming as it helps us understand a system that might effect us in the future.

 

[Tripower455]

See? Luddite. I give up. Three people have shown you your errors and you cover your ears and say "nananananna".

Based on 10 years of experience at SWA, I am looking at this pragmatically. You obviously don't work for SWA or understand how our collective bargaining association works, or you'd be right there with me. If PBS works where you are, great. It will not work to the benefit of SWA pilots.

Some people in this world don't want their cheese moved.

It doens't matter to any of us three whether you vote for it or not, but all three of us have had great experiences--which you couldn't care about, you've already set your mind even though you have not a clue, nor experience about the subject. Folks like you make me nuts on this board, I don't know why I even bothered the time to type.

See my above answer.... we obviously work for different carriers. If it works for you, then GREAT. It will not work at SWA.......

At least you're not rude, SWA hires nice folks, but they sure seem to be stuck in a time machine.

I agree.....

 

[radarlove]

Radarlove we (SWA pilots), do appreciate your comments as PBS is a system that most of use do not understand. Like wise our present system isn't broke, its just that the company is looking for even more productivity out of our pilots. I'm not sure how your productivitly is for your pilot group, but I'm guessing that if we are not more productive we are very close. It's tough for a lot of use to change systems when we already work 3 on 4 off and are very productive doing it. Please keep the informatin coming as it helps us understand a system that might effect us in the future.

Well, thanks. That was a nice thing to say. As I said, SWA hires nice people.

 

[mrnolmts]

Well, like someone mentioned earlier, by going from 3-day to 4-day trips, it will obviously make it harder to pick up extra trips for those who are looking to make extra money. Would certainly be a consideration if I was in you guys' shoes

 

[canyonblue]

Why does everyone want to "tar and feather" a guy who says he wants to quit his airline and go elsewhere?

He would have to get hired by SWA before he quit, I'm not the only one who knows he does not work at SWA and only starts flames, am I? (Ok, except SWADude who also pointed it out)

 

[GuppyWN]

I think what most SWA guys on here are nervous about is that our "union" only cares about age 60 repeal. ANYTHING else is secondhand. Therefore, PBS would be a bad thing for us. We would get hosed.

Gup