SWA took one step closer to being a regional carrier

[USNFDX]

And maximizing productivity to preserve pay levels and profitability is a bad thing?

It is if turns your 17 day vacation into a 5 day vacation.

How about preserving profitability by raising the price of the damn ticket!

Nah, just take it out labor.

 

[SWA/FO]

I don't think the folks at SWA fully understand PBS. That being said, I personally do not know anything about it. I did talk to a NWA pilot the other day and he says "its awesome".

It is a matter of perception, you know when your buddy tells you he is dating a hot woman and when you finally meet her, the word "hot" does not come to mind.

 

[Aplus9]

7S3W7A
Why not have this thread on the SWAPA forum?

 

[SWA/FO]

exactly, except he does not have access to that web-site.

 

[radarlove]

PBS can be good or really really BAD depending on who is control of the software and the rule sets within. It can keep you 7 day vacation, a 17 day vacation, or it can turn 7 day vacation into a 5 day vacation (if you are a commuter). It all has do with how it's employed, and who is at the controls.

Right. It's not PBS or not PBS that has to do with how much vacation you get, it's the rules you agree to work under.

I'll try again, PBS lets you pick the schedule YOU want to work. How can anyone agree that it's a better idea to let some other guy build a bunch of monthly schedules that don't take into consideration what YOU want, like the ability to commute?

I claim you guys are all arguing the wrong thing. Look up the word "Luddite". PBS is just a different way of arranging the schedule some dude makes for you, it has nothing to do with vacation and only a little to do with productivity. Time off for vacation is simply a parameter that is unrelated to how the montly schedule is produced. Your company RIGHT NOW could give you 7 days of vacation off for 7 days under the current 1970s way you bid a schedule.

But, I assume you have a union contract that allows for more. Why would switching from some dude writing random schedules to you writing your own change your contract on vacation?

Again, time to enter....the eighties.

I don't even know why I'm arguing this, I guess it just makes me nuts when people on flightinfo spout off about stuff that they have NO EXPERIENCE WITH and try to tell the rest of us HOW IT IS.

One last time: PBS lets you build YOUR OWN schedule. Otherwise, you BID A RANDOM SCHEDULE SOME DUDE GENERATES. Why in holly hades would you let some dude make your schedule for you? And then defend that position? "I want as LITTLE CONTROL as I can get over my schedule."

Vacation and time off are completely unrelated to PBS, those are just the rules you work under, assuming you have a union.

 

[USNFDX]

Right. It's not PBS or not PBS that has to do with how much vacation you get, it's the rules you agree to work under.

I'll try again, PBS lets you pick the schedule YOU want to work. How can anyone agree that it's a better idea to let some other guy build a bunch of monthly schedules that don't take into consideration what YOU want, like the ability to commute?

I claim you guys are all arguing the wrong thing. Look up the word "Luddite". PBS is just a different way of arranging the schedule some dude makes for you, it has nothing to do with vacation and only a little to do with productivity. Time off for vacation is simply a parameter that is unrelated to how the montly schedule is produced. Your company RIGHT NOW could give you 7 days of vacation off for 7 days under the current 1970s way you bid a schedule.

But, I assume you have a union contract that allows for more. Why would switching from some dude writing random schedules to you writing your own change your contract on vacation?

Again, time to enter....the eighties.

I don't even know why I'm arguing this, I guess it just makes me nuts when people on flightinfo spout off about stuff that they have NO EXPERIENCE WITH and try to tell the rest of us HOW IT IS.

One last time: PBS lets you build YOUR OWN schedule. Otherwise, you BID A RANDOM SCHEDULE SOME DUDE GENERATES. Why in holly hades would you let some dude make your schedule for you? And then defend that position? "I want as LITTLE CONTROL as I can get over my schedule."

Vacation and time off are completely unrelated to PBS, those are just the rules you work under, assuming you have a union.

How much experience do you have with PBS?


While I will agree with you that there is more to PBS than just vacation, vacation could be significantly impacted (at least at Fedex) depending on how it is employed. We enjoy "conflicting" trips with our vacation, allowing for real vacation. PBS software can be manipulated so that there is no conflict. We do this with training and carry in as well.

With PBS you dont "Simply pick the trips that you want to fly" and "Build your own schedule" You make a series of preferences 1...2....3... etc and based on your preferences and seniority the computer builds you a line. How well it works depends on seniority and the parameters that are programed into the software ("rule sets")

Again, the company wants PBS so that they may extract as much work out of your hyde! It will build you a line that works for them, not YOU!

It does work well at NWA. But my understanding is that they have hard and fast "rule sets" that have been negotiated and can't be changed or "Tweeked" by the company without Union authorization. This may change for them, particulary if their contract is thrown out.

 

[pilotyip]

Raise the ticket process that’s a good one. USNFDX has the answer, lets raise ticket prices, it will have no effect upon load factors, because prices have nothing to do with load factors. Is that not SWA niche, prices no one can match and be profitable. So this way SWA dominates the market in that city pair and prevents competitors from getting into that market. So SWA will raise prices and take that chance in their market dominance to ensure their pilots don’t have to do anything they do not want to. SWA profits and pilot lifestyle are not interrelated at all, it is only that nasty ole management picking a new way to stick to labor? It that the new SW battle cry?

 

[radarlove]

I've worked under several different bidding systems and PBS gave the most consistant flexibility.

If I remember, Fedex instituted the optimizer (sodomizer) back when you only had 50% or so union membership which then shot to 97% after two months of getting sodomized. That just goes back to whether or not your union negotiates benefits, not what type of schedule organizing software you use.

I've seen a friend's bid at SWA, he gets to chose what three days he wants to work each week all month. Too bad if he needs one of those days off in the middle of the month, if he does he has to wait and see if the trip he really wanted shows up in company available or whatever they call it.

It's an ancient system and I got the same answer as to why the pilots put up with it that I got when I asked why they turned off the EFIS and system display functions on their new airplanes.

To me, it's just weird, but whatever. Maybe they know more than everyone else, maybe the 70's were the greatest decade ever.

 

[DH2WN]

Radarlove,

I don't think you understand what they are trying to tell you about PBS. It could be the greatest scheduling system in the world however our union has historically overlooked important details that end up screwing us in the end. Management has always negotiated better than unions because unions don't hire professional negotiatiors for whatever reason. Probably because pilots "know it all".

Knowing that fact we don't want it.

 

[ultrarunner]

We just implemented our new work rule changes that a whole 30% of the pilots voted on and deleted many days off that we once enjoyed while not increasing our daily productivity one bit.

Hey, think of it this way.....

...you could be on furlough, or worse yet, have a regular job....

 

[SWA/FO]

pilotyip, most of these folks don't work for SWA.

Some fear PBS at SWA, some like it and some have no idea (like me). This should not even be on this web-site in my opinion.

But I'm just a jerk anyway and nobody listens to me because I can't tactfully answer anything.

 

[pilotyip]

Oh! SWAF/O, I thought most of this was coming from SWA pilots and I could not understand pilots with a job that most would almost kill for, bad mouthing their dream job. I think we have couple more USA Jet guys interviewing over there, I bet any of them would be happy no mater what happened at SWA.

 

[SWA/FO]

I guess, with this trial thing going on its bringing out emotions, fear in some. I've noticed my line for January flew 3-4 hours more, but I also had 19 days off. Time will tell... If all we have to worry about is PBS, in my opinion thats not to bad considering what if going on out there.

I'm hoping we see a little bit more luck with the JUS guys interviewing. Its not a good record so far.... When is AH going to apply?

 

[Tank Commander]

Is that not SWA niche, prices no one can match and be profitable. So this way SWA dominates the market in that city pair and prevents competitors from getting into that market. So SWA will raise prices and take that chance in their market dominance to ensure their pilots don’t have to do anything they do not want to.

This is one of the most ironic statements. It's very true. All will be able to fly, even the homeless. Aviation transportation is replacing public bus transportation. The spin-up of the LCC brought down the price to fly. Put a few Legacy carriers to there knees. Even SWA will have to face the music now. SWA being the first and biggest LCC will have to face its off spring. Read the quote above two or three times. Can an airline in todays environment survive without Shitty work rules and pay cuts? Don't answer now. Wait till Jet Blue starts eating your lunch.

 

[pilotyip]

AH is in the USA Jet trap, makes too much money as a DC-9 Captain with a house, three teenagers, college coming and two car payments tot take a pay cut. He can not make a move until the kids are gone. Plus is he pretty happy with the scheduled passenger ops. You gatta recruit the right guys.

 

[radarlove]

Radarlove,

I don't think you understand what they are trying to tell you about PBS. It could be the greatest scheduling system in the world however our union has historically overlooked important details that end up screwing us in the end. Management has always negotiated better than unions because unions don't hire professional negotiatiors for whatever reason. Probably because pilots "know it all".

Knowing that fact we don't want it.

Well then, you're blaming PBS for something that is unrelated (your fear of union incompetance). Again, they're unrelated. It's like saying, "We at SWA can't fly Airbuses, because we would get lower pay."

What would Airbuses have to do with lower pay? Nothing, but then you say, "Well our union would negotiate that, so no Airbuses."

PBS is an extremely logical system for maximizing your own personal utility. The fact that you have no confidence in your union is unrelated. On the other hand, you guys seem to have a pretty outstanding contract, so maybe your fears are overstated.

 

[enigma]

Just a quick couple of items.

First, Albie is correct. Don't fear nor look down on people looking to leave. Their departure can be your biggest weapon in your own battle for QOL. The company values the people that it has so carefully selected and nurtured. Losing valued employees will do more to convince the company to improve conditions than almost anything else.

Second, My friends who happen to have had experience with pref bidding at TWA are convinced that it is the best thing since sliced bread. However, they are quick to point out that they tested it for close to a full year to work out the bugs before implementation.

Third, In my base and fleet at NK, last months bid lines were approximately 65% relief and reserve. Half of the pilots ended up with 13 or 14 days off, and those awarded a relief line, didn't learn their schedule until a week before the line began. I say that to say this; it can be so much worse. I have sympathy for pilots who are facing the loss of any QOL, but the market will rule. I don't want SWA pilots to give up ANYTHING because I still have aspirations of working with them. BUT, if seems inevitable that something is going to have to give, and I like the way that both SWA and SWAPA are approaching change. Let me say it this way, SWA boys, having a GO that allows a test period, and then gives you a month or so to try it your way is SO MUCH BETTER than having an owner who makes any change he wants; forcing the pilots to "fly it then grieve it". In other words, be thankful that you work for a CEO who still values your input.

Now, back to my current project. I'll check back on Friday.

enigma

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

I'm not quite sure why all you guys are worked up about PBS. We use it at NWA, and everybody loves it.

True, we have nuke in the pocket. The MEC can pull the plug on it at any time. The "parameters" of the program are monitored. But that shouldn't be a big deal for the SWA pilot group to negotiate.

It's true that it eliminates the monthly transition (no dropping for conflicting trips). Also true that it won't place a trip over a known absence (vacation, training, mil leave).

Your monthly bid is made up of bid groups. Each bid group is like a little computer program. First you tell it how much credit you want (max, min or wide), if you want to commute (it works to group trips together), and if you want to claim credit for certain events (like training..we have the option to take it as pay only or pay/credit).

Then you tell it if you have any specific days off you want.

Once you've done that, you tell it what kind of trips you want (trip length, credit, start day, individual trips, etc.) or what kind to avoid (duty day, layover time, layover city, etc). Each AVOID or AWARD command has about 12-15 different commands. The amount of customization is almost endless. You can make a whole bid group nothing but specific trips OR as general as AWARD TRIP LENGTH = 4.

If the system cannot build a schedule into you designated credit window, it starts over, and goes to your next bid group. You can have about 20 or so well designed bid groups, and the typical strategy is to start with a highly specific, pie in the sky request, and then gradually back off the restrictions.

There is ALWAYS of open time left, even with this system. It's just not clumped together at the beginning of the month.

It's just as easy to get a fat vacation with PBS as with hard lines, but its much more flexible. At NWA, each day of vacation is worth a certain amount of credit. If I had 7 days worth of vacation, that number, 3:30, is multiplied by 7, and then deducted from the credit target. Then, you can either request trips that give you a huge block off, or you can tell the system to AVOID WORK on the dates immediately before and/or after your vacation. OR you can slide your vacation back and forth up to 3 days. OR if you don't have anything specific planned, you can just take the credit, and wind up with a line with lots of extra days off scattered around. Since the system has a lower credit target, you wind up with fewer trips.

Let's say you are commuter and you are lazy here's what your bid might look like:

Set MINSKED (sets a 3 hour window starting at the minimum for the month)
SET COMMUTE 3,4 (this will build a line with 3 commutes with 4 days off)
SET COMMUTE 3,3 (same, but with 3 days off)
SET COMMUTE 4,3 (this will build a line with 4 commutes, with 3 days off)
AVOID WORK DATES = FEB10,FEB11,FEB12,FEB13 (i've got to judge the over-60 wet T-shirt contest down at the Y those days, but you can put in as many off days as you think you can get away with)

The system will cycle through this bid group with each commute command, top to bottom, trying to find a solution. If you are awarded smaller trips, it will place them back to back.

SET CHECKIN=1300 (sets a 1300 report for the first day of each trip so you can commute in)
SET CHECKOUT=2000 (sets a 2000 report out for each trip so you can commute home)
AVOID DUTY LEGS > 5 (minimized the number of flights per day)
AVOID LAYOVER < 1100 (if you don't like short nights)
AWARD TRIP LENGTH = 4 (awards 4 day trips not avoided)
AWARD TRIP LENGTH = 3 (same, for 3 day trips).
CLEAR START AND RESET (if it doesn't find a solution, this tells it to move to the next bid group).

This is just an example...

The true power of this system is it's recursive processing (it always works to better the whole pilot group solution, even as it moves up and down the list). Systems like this work out well because every pilot bids something slightly differet. Hard lines are ALWAYS a compromise, but with this, you get what you want, right out of the box.



Nu

 

[Tripower455]

Heyas,

I'm not quite sure why all you guys are worked up about PBS. We use it at NWA, and everybody loves it.

True, we have nuke in the pocket. The MEC can pull the plug on it at any time. The "parameters" of the program are monitored. But that shouldn't be a big deal for the SWA pilot group to negotiate.

It's true that it eliminates the monthly transition (no dropping for conflicting trips). Also true that it won't place a trip over a known absence (vacation, training, mil leave).

Your monthly bid is made up of bid groups. Each bid group is like a little computer program. First you tell it how much credit you want (max, min or wide), if you want to commute (it works to group trips together), and if you want to claim credit for certain events (like training..we have the option to take it as pay only or pay/credit).

Then you tell it if you have any specific days off you want.

Once you've done that, you tell it what kind of trips you want (trip length, credit, start day, individual trips, etc.) or what kind to avoid (duty day, layover time, layover city, etc). Each AVOID or AWARD command has about 12-15 different commands. The amount of customization is almost endless. You can make a whole bid group nothing but specific trips OR as general as AWARD TRIP LENGTH = 4.

If the system cannot build a schedule into you designated credit window, it starts over, and goes to your next bid group. You can have about 20 or so well designed bid groups, and the typical strategy is to start with a highly specific, pie in the sky request, and then gradually back off the restrictions.

There is ALWAYS of open time left, even with this system. It's just not clumped together at the beginning of the month.

It's just as easy to get a fat vacation with PBS as with hard lines, but its much more flexible. At NWA, each day of vacation is worth a certain amount of credit. If I had 7 days worth of vacation, that number, 3:30, is multiplied by 7, and then deducted from the credit target. Then, you can either request trips that give you a huge block off, or you can tell the system to AVOID WORK on the dates immediately before and/or after your vacation. OR you can slide your vacation back and forth up to 3 days. OR if you don't have anything specific planned, you can just take the credit, and wind up with a line with lots of extra days off scattered around. Since the system has a lower credit target, you wind up with fewer trips.

Let's say you are commuter and you are lazy here's what your bid might look like:

Set MINSKED (sets a 3 hour window starting at the minimum for the month)
SET COMMUTE 3,4 (this will build a line with 3 commutes with 4 days off)
SET COMMUTE 3,3 (same, but with 3 days off)
SET COMMUTE 4,3 (this will build a line with 4 commutes, with 3 days off)
AVOID WORK DATES = FEB10,FEB11,FEB12,FEB13 (i've got to judge the over-60 wet T-shirt contest down at the Y those days, but you can put in as many off days as you think you can get away with)

The system will cycle through this bid group with each commute command, top to bottom, trying to find a solution. If you are awarded smaller trips, it will place them back to back.

SET CHECKIN=1300 (sets a 1300 report for the first day of each trip so you can commute in)
SET CHECKOUT=2000 (sets a 2000 report out for each trip so you can commute home)
AVOID DUTY LEGS > 5 (minimized the number of flights per day)
AVOID LAYOVER < 1100 (if you don't like short nights)
AWARD TRIP LENGTH = 4 (awards 4 day trips not avoided)
AWARD TRIP LENGTH = 3 (same, for 3 day trips).
CLEAR START AND RESET (if it doesn't find a solution, this tells it to move to the next bid group).

This is just an example...

The true power of this system is it's recursive processing (it always works to better the whole pilot group solution, even as it moves up and down the list). Systems like this work out well because every pilot bids something slightly differet. Hard lines are ALWAYS a compromise, but with this, you get what you want, right out of the box.



Nu

Swapa will get nuked in the negotiations. It will take us until a year AFTER it is implemented to figure out all the different ways.........

PBS can be good or bad. It is all in the details. We, as a group, don't have the experience or will to work out the details in basic contract language. With all of the complexities and required parameters needed to maintain a decent QOL with PBS, there is no way we'd even break even on QOL.

I won't vote for it, given the chance.

 

[Jim Smyth]

Well each airline is different and unless you work for SWA you probably dont understand our system. So plain and simple, SWA wants us all to fly alot. If they could get us all to fly 1000 hours per year they could ellimnate 30 percent of the current senority list!

So if SWA wants PBS what does that tell you? It tells me that I will have to work more days per year since I usually fly my 3 on 4 off schedule and put in my 700 hours per year right now. I like the way our vacation system works and the amount of time off you can get with vacation overlap drop if thats what you want. I enjoy my days off and knowing how our system works I know what will happen if PBS gets on the property. So I hope it gets voted down if and when its introduced/voted on!