SWA today like the airline in the book, "Nuts!"?

[madjack]

PCL,

We're u involved in the ALPA discussions with ATA in 2006? Heard AAI/ALPA offered to host job fair? Not even preferential interviews, way to hook up ur ALPA bros...

 

[dicko]

I might cross a pocket line too. It depends how much money is in that pocket and how much is headed my way.

No need for any sort of commentary on this quote.

 

[redflyer65]

No need for any sort of commentary on this quote.

I was making fun of the guys spelling of picket line with 'pocket' line. Re-read his post.

Grab a cold one Dicko and chill out.

 

[Just thinking]

"Not even preferential interviews, way to hook up ur ALPA bros..."

Which company hired more of the ATA folks? Certainly not the luv machine.

 

[madjack]

And which company integrated the list vs offering to host a "Job Fair"?? I realize that ATA was on the way out but my understanding was that during the the "merger" discussions between ATA and AAI, the offer from AAI/ALPA was "job fair", NOT preferential interviews, not staple, more like "If we buy your company, you MIGHT interview". The AAI/SWA ISL seems generous as compared to the terms AAI/ALPA was dictating to their ALPA brothers at ATA...ATA was an international carrier, flying big equipment and you could argue doing a more demanding pilot job than their counterparts at AAI, but that did not matter when it came down to the ISL...now that AAI is in the role of the acquired carrier, you guys are screaming bloody hell about the deal you got from GK and SWA, when the same pilot group was ready to f-over their ATA bretheren... And we have plenty of former ATA at SWA...We should have bought ATA and ditched the L1011's...now we are stuck with a bunch of FAT pilots who don't want to be here, while we de-hub ATL...

 

[Ty Webb]

And which company integrated the list vs offering to host a "Job Fair"?? I realize that ATA was on the way out but my understanding was that during the the "merger" discussions between ATA and AAI, the offer from AAI/ALPA was "job fair", NOT preferential interviews, not staple, more like "If we buy your company, you MIGHT interview". The AAI/SWA ISL seems generous as compared to the terms AAI/ALPA was dictating to their ALPA brothers at ATA...ATA was an international carrier, flying big equipment and you could argue doing a more demanding pilot job than their counterparts at AAI, but that did not matter when it came down to the ISL...now that AAI is in the role of the acquired carrier, you guys are screaming bloody hell about the deal you got from GK and SWA, when the same pilot group was ready to f-over their ATA bretheren... And we have plenty of former ATA at SWA...We should have bought ATA and ditched the L1011's...now we are stuck with a bunch of FAT pilots who don't want to be here, while we de-hub ATL...

Fact check-

1) ALPA wasn't the union at AAI when our management bid for ATA assets.

2) Our Company didn't buy any part of ATA, yours did. If you ask the ATA guys we hired, AirTran hired more ATA than SWA did, even though we were a quarter of your size and you swallowed their planes and gates.

3) I can tell you that when AirTran management made a bid for Midwest (a more similar scenario to the SWA/AAI deal) the talk on the Line was relative seniority versus date of hire. I never heard even a random Line Swine suggest we should "capture their Captain seats", let alone hear one of our Union Reps say something that belligerent and offensive.

WTF kind of talk is that for a Union official to make toward a group of Pilots that you will be working with for the next 20 years, anyway? You guys need to straighten SWAPA out, unless you agree with the way they have behaving towards your future coworkers. Seriously.

 

[madjack]

I stand corrected on the ALPA representation at AAI at the time of the talks with the ATA pilots, but even though your company ultimately did not buy any part of the ATA outfit, the FACT remains that your group was offering a "Job Fair" to the ATA pilots IF a deal was reached to merge the companies...WHAT KIND OF TALK is that to another pilot group during merger talks...not even an interview or a job?

The point is that now that your company has been acquired, and the shoe is on the other foot so to speak, you guys (on here at least) are all up in arms with SWA, SWAPA and I guess Steve Chase, who isn't even at SWAPA, but you were willing to offer a big fat ZERO to the ATA guys...please explain...I can't wait...

 

[redflyer65]

3) I can tell you that when AirTran management made a bid for Midwest (a more similar scenario to the SWA/AAI deal)

I don't think so Ty.

 

[Ty Webb]

MJ, someone is feeding you some poor info. We never got to the point in the deal where there were any formal negotiations between the Pilot groups.

Maybe there are some ATA guys on here who could comment? I'd like to hear what they have to say.

 

[Ty Webb]

I don't think so Ty.

Really? You must not know much about what happened.

The similarities are readily apparent, if you only look-

AirTran was larger- proportionally, about the exact same ratio- 3:1

AirTran operated only one aircraft type (717) Midwest had two plane types; 717 and MD80

Midwest was financially less stable than AirTran.

AirTran was interested in MKE in the same way that SWA was interested in ATL

Midwest had long-range aircraft, AirTran did not. At the time, AirTran wanted to go to the West Coast, much in the same way that SWA wants to go International. In fact, AirTran had a deal with Ryan to do West Coast flying, SWA had Volaris.

Differences-

Midwest was the more senior Pilot Group

Midwest had been in business longer

Midwest was not profitable when the offer to buy it was made; AirTran wa profitable when SWA bought it.

So, Red . . . . Let's hear your take on what was so different?

And why it is acceptable to have Union reps making statements about "capturing" (ie. "stealing") Captain seats from AirTran pilots whom you will be working with, and whom they want to be representing?

 

[Just thinking]

"the FACT remains that your group was offering a "Job Fair" to the ATA pilots IF a deal was reached to merge the companies."................

Not so.... Airtran was trying to buy the Midway operation from ATA. (gates etc).... no merger at all. Money that ATA needed to continue operation in whatever fashion they decided. SWA came in and upped the offer BUT included managerial control. SWA had a direct effect in the demise of ATA (cherry picking routes).

SWA offered interviews and took less than 5% of the candidates. Airtran provided a job to a much greater percentage of the pilots that SWA screwed over.

 

[madjack]

My source is a former ATA pilot (now at SWA) who was at the company at the time of the talks between ATA/AAI ...he does not feel that SWA screwed ATA over, in fact the infusion of money kept the company alive longer, sure SWA got what it wanted (gates in MDW) but it paid hard, and much needed cash to the ATA operation...like I said, we should have bought them, but what do I know...anyway my source is adament that the way I describe the talks that took place between the AAI/ATA at the time was that AAI was offering, nothing, not even preferential interviews IF an acq/merger was to happen...he has no love loss for AAI...like I said he was at the company when this transpired and this is his take on how it went down...perhaps this was only talks at the management level, but what I say is what an ATA pilot of that era remembers...

 

[PCL_128]

What you see as working like rented mules others see as an efficient reserve system. At SW reserve is essentially a build-up line where you can fly a lot and make decent money, still with a decent number of days off. At AT, unlike SW, you have a huge percentage of your pilots on reserve which is why better reserve rules are more important. The AT reserve rules are better I will give you that but I would rather have 12% of the pilots on reserve and sub-par rules then 25% of the list on reserve with better rules. The biggest problem with reserve at SW now is that it takes so long to get off of it for the guys at the bottom because the company is not growing. I hope once this integration gets done and things get back under control that growth returns, this will help everyone. That was supposed to be the purpose of this whole deal.

You like reserve because you almost never fly and the extra money isn't worth it to you to have to work more, I get that. The difference between At and SW is that one uses it's crews very efficiently and the other is tremendously inefficient. Obviously some of this is caused by the transition and shrinkage of AT. You have a good gig at AT and I understand that, SW is not a good place for pilots who don't want to work some hard days to make their money.

I also understand your unhappiness at probably having to start commuting if you transition, that is a major QOL reduction and I wish that didn't have to happen to anybody on either side. I can certainly understand that if you don't need the money the hassle may not be worth it. I hope we see the day where there are more bases and/or the increasing of the size of the more popular bases to get as many people living in a base they like as possible. That may be the biggest QOL factor of all and with a single aircraft type SW has some unique opportunities to create a one-of-a-kind basing system if they choose to do it.

A reasonable post, which I appreciate. But I do disagree with your characterization of AirTran's system as being "inefficient." AirTran simply found efficiencies in different ways. For example, utilizing CDOs to to keep completion factor up. The overall operation was obviously quite efficient, seeing as how record profits were being pulled in before the SWA acquisition. You can't measure overall efficiency by looking at the percentage of pilots on reserve. You have to look at the overall average block hours flown per pilot. With that metric, I'd be surprised if SWA was more efficient than AirTran, pre-merger.

 

[HalinTexas]

Konbanwa.

Still living the dream. EX-TZ warrior, here.

At the end of Oct. '04 ATA filed. FL "stepped in" and offered money to keep the company operating for about 6 months. FL was to get the MDW, DCA, LGA operation/slots. No airplanes. Employees were offered pref. interviews. ATA was going to reoganized as a charter ops. in IND. This didn't last long.

Parker/Cactus upped the ante with the help of the same hedge fund that bailed out Cactus, TPG, I think. The employees of ATA, all groups, were pretty d@mn happy about this offer. Synergies and all that. This didn't last long.

"Something" happened in the intervening days this was going to happen. Boeing wasn't too happy, we heard, because Parker only wanted the B75's for ETOPS. Their's weren't certified. He also didn't want to order any B737's since he was a "Bus man." The financing fell through. Herb called up George while he was driving to MDW, this according to George, to offer him a deal. The employee groups were a little deflated, but not disheartened. We knew this wasn't going to be pretty.

John G. Denison was named CEO by SWA, who offered more money and bought about 27% of the company. He cleaned house. Some of it was good, but there wasn't a plan by him, or anyone else going forward. He told a a captain friend of mine that he thought SWA would end up buying ATA, outright, within about 5 years. Still not so pretty.

Many SWA and ATA pilots shared crashpads in MDW. We also commuted quite regularly on each other all over the system. There was never an adversarial relationship between the employees of either airline, ever. We were pretty friendly and respectful of each other.

Now, during 2005 while ATA/ALPA's contract was slowly being gutted, we trimmed/slimmed down. Shed some of the mistakes of the previous administration, and made some new ones, e.g. B737-300s. We also found out that SWAPAs scope was quite specific. All flying by SWA owned entities were to be done by SWAPA pilots. Uh, oh. This was pre-McGaskill. SWAPA pilots made it clear through ALL channels that ATA/ALPA would be stapled. They wanted to do our flying, including the military. I'm just speaking of the pilots now. The other groups just wanted to keep their jobs. ATA slowly pulled out of all markets that we directly competed against SWA, namely Florida. ATA began flying in/out of FL. SWA didn't start until the late '90s. Some of us were quite disturbed by this. I worked the very last flight out of MCO to MDW. I was based there. It was their last day on the job. We were completely full. It was sad.

SWAPA and others in their management wanted out of this deal. SWA made money and learned a hell of a lot about what it takes to operate to various destinations such as ETOPS and Int'l. and LGA/DCA.

SWA went to Mattlin-Patterson to "help" out. ATA was sold out to them at this point, and Subodh Karnik was named CEO. ATA continued the code share. No offers of employment other than an initial 50 pilots in '05 was offered. We were told Herb was involved in this and the next merger with World Holdings.

Airtran initially hired more ATA pilots than SWA. However, I don't think that many of them remained. SWA has hired a trickle of ex ATA pilots since then. I think just as many are at World/NA, Kalitta, and Atlas as are at SWA. Far more have left the country.

SWA bought the ATA cert. in 2008 out of bankruptcy court. Took no airplanes or employees. Turned the cert. promptly into the FAA.

ATA and ALPA litigation against FEDEX, another story, was a dismal failure. I was out about $45K in lost vacation, commute credit, and Warn Act remittences. I'll get nothing.

It's been a hard 5 years for me and my family. My wife was a 24 year FA with ATA. She's out of the business now. I'm beyond it. I miss the people I worked with. Every now and then, like right now, something comes up to refresh what was lost.

My advice? I'll offer it unsolicited. Quitcherbitchin! None of you princesses in the US have any idea how good you've got it if you've haven't lost your job in the last 5 years. I'm on my 5th airlines since ATA, 4th expat job. Although I've flown with a lot of great people outside the US in this time, I'd rather be flying in the US with Americans. I've sat in many a jumpseat of US carriers in my 20 years of flying, and let me tell you, your sh!t does stink! I've seen you fly! None of you can claim to be better pilots/aviators than anyone else out there. Get over yourselves!

Now, back to your regularly scheduled whining. Crybabies.

 

[islandhoper]

Halin Texas,
That is a great post. Thank you for being candid about your ATA experience. In Comparing the AT-SW situation with others like AA-TWA or even better SW-ATA we do feel lucky. I do feel blessed that I still have a job. I guess it is harder to explain, but the feeling I have is that of having been blind sided more than anything. The bitching comes more from the way things happened. I can only compare this sensation with a time a few years back when I was robbed at knife point by 3 teenagers in Brazil. They were not aggressive, but the knife did the talking for them. At the end the feeling of anger for not having been able to do anything was worst than loosing some of my property. I felt lucky to be alive though. ... But yes, at the end, somehow we have to come to terms with these feelings, as we do have jobs with a good company.
I guess we can whine all we want on how bad we have it with this or the previous government until we compare ourselves with Somalia. Then it doesn't make much sense anymore...
Good luck in whatever part of the world you are in.