SWA today like the airline in the book, "Nuts!"?

[dicko]

You have zero leverage. Nada, nothing, zip. He knows that you'll do as your told, no matter what he does. You will apply zero pressure, apart from stern glances and slightly less festive ties.Your pilot groups collective personality is built upon a relationship that no longer exists.

Your boss hired an ex ALPA President. That's like the Israelis stealing the Iranians head of Nuclear Programs. I know that's a poor analogy due to the massive difference in relative IQ, but bear with me.

The good news is that SWAPA can read about BATNA in the Wikipedia article that they contributed to. They can also enjoy the phrase "the first offer is always the best".

'Hoisted by your own Petard'.







yes I realize that this applies to me too. Hoping nobody notices

 

[SWA Bubba]

You have zero leverage. Nada, nothing, zip. He knows that you'll do as your told, no matter what he does. You will apply zero pressure, apart from stern glances and slightly less festive ties.Your pilot groups collective personality is built upon a relationship that no longer exists.

Your boss hired an ex ALPA President. That's like the Israelis stealing the Iranians head of Nuclear Programs. I know that's a poor analogy due to the massive difference in relative IQ, but bear with me.

The good news is that SWAPA can read about BATNA in the Wikipedia article that they contributed to. They can also enjoy the phrase "the first offer is always the best".

'Hoisted by your own Petard'.







yes I realize that this applies to me too. Hoping nobody notices

Wow, someone needs to get laid...

Your negativism, hatred, and general pessimism to all things Southwest and SWAPA are duly noted. Fortunately, no one on this side cares what you think about this. Least of all, the people actually negotiating for us.

Jeez... are you sure you're not secretly negotiating for the company?

And yes, despite the little font and yellow color, we noticed...

Bubba

 

[humveedriver]

Wow, someone needs to get laid...

Your negativism, hatred, and general pessimism to all things Southwest and SWAPA are duly noted. Fortunately, no one on this side cares what you think about this. Least of all, the people actually negotiating for us.

Jeez... are you sure you're not secretly negotiating for the company?

And yes, despite the little font and yellow color, we noticed...

Bubba

C'mon really? That's some funny stuff Dicko dished out. I thought the less festive ties was pretty good. I suspect your negotiation process is just far less dramatic than what we are used to. No hostages, or chair throwing or any of that stuff.

 

[SWA Bubba]

C'mon really? That's some funny stuff Dicko dished out. I thought the less festive ties was pretty good. I suspect your negotiation process is just far less dramatic than what we are used to. No hostages, or chair throwing or any of that stuff.

Well...

It's sometimes to tell the difference between when he's being funny (quite often), and when he's being an ass (to be honest, that seems less often then it used to be).

And so far, the only hostages have been the "Flattish won't Fly" tags, although apparently, they were rescued.

Bubba

 

[waveflyer]

On that note, a question: SWAPA agreed to fly the -800 at the same pay rate as the rest of the fleet. Did that agreement have an expiration date with a snap up provision to higher pay rate? If not, do you think your upcoming contract will have a separate pay category for the -800 and the -MAX?

For reference - AirTran did not fly the -800, but had options for them. If they had arrived on property, the AirTran contract already specified that those aircraft will see a 13% hourly pay increase over the -700 fleet.

Two things

A- we don't want divided rates here and most agree-
If we bought 787's, we'd want one increased rate for everyone and not get into the divided carrot chasing career others have

B) if gk and execs are getting raises/ I better also
That's a common sentiment

 

[freightdogfred]

Not trying to throw stones since I'm by default part of the "family" but since you have already gladly given them pretty much everything they want (with no provision to get it back), you have nothing to negotiate other than to try and keep what you have. Good luck SWAPA, we're all counting on you.....

This pretty much sums it all up. All the usual suspects from the SWAPA side who post here have told us many times the first offer is always best.

Why has SWAPA not inked a deal

 

[humveedriver]

The 13% override went away with the new contract. 2001 had the override.

 

[jhill]

I just finished reading the book "Nuts!" which was a very good and insightful read. I did think it was interesting reading through the chapters and realizing that the airline described in the book specifically the management style doesn't appear to resemble the airline today. Do any "Real Southwest" pilots agree or will I see things vastly different when I'm off to Dallas someday soon for two months?

Definitely not the same but still the best place I ever worked. Just not the same as it was. Too big I guess. GK is just a lot different but no one could follow Herb. When you come over you will still be very pleased. I promise everyone will treat you well. Utopia it aint but it aint bad neither

 

[SWA Bubba]

This pretty much sums it all up. All the usual suspects from the SWAPA side who post here have told us many times the first offer is always best.

Why has SWAPA not inked a deal

I think they mean the first agreed-upon, negotiated TA. Not the first thing that comes out of the other side's mouth. We're nowhere near that yet. Does that answer your question, or did you really actually have a question?

Bubba

 

[redflyer65]

This pretty much sums it all up. All the usual suspects from the SWAPA side who post here have told us many times the first offer is always best.

Why has SWAPA not inked a deal

No. We told you time and time again that with the SLI agreement, the first negotiated deal would probably be the best. You guys scoffed and puffed out your chest and told us we were crazy. The facts in the end proved what we said. The second deal sucked. You had one good bite at the Apple and the MEC choked on it.

Hiring Randy Babbit doesn't concern me at all. You think he's some highly paid, highly sought after hired gun? Please.

 

[waveflyer]

Please, everyone on the outside and new air tran members- tell us how it works.

 

[Kharma Police]

Please, everyone on the outside and new air tran members- tell us how it works.

No, you've told us how it works and warned us after the fact. The first offer is always the best.

 

[waveflyer]

Implying that your internal union politics weren't neurotic and hence delaying the sli process....we were all here man- we know what got you guys the process you got, neurosis mixed in with greed and unrealistic expectations

 

[Kharma Police]

Implying that your internal union politics weren't neurotic and hence delaying the sli process....we were all here man- we know what got you guys the process you got, neurosis mixed in with greed and unrealistic expectations

Not what I'm saying at all, I was just saying to take your own advice which is to take the first offer. Since you have all the answers, I will again wish you and SWAPA the best of luck.

 

[K-Mart]

I agree with Kharma. Lotta talking outta both sides of mouth from Southwest and AirTran guys.

 

[PCL_128]

Sure; I'm an optimist by nature.

My post was primarily for all the pessimists and haters out there clamoring about SWAPA giving "concessions" to the company. Negotiations are negotiations, no matter what two entities are involved. And since the company's opening position was "flattish," i.e. NOT even starting off asking for concessions, I have a hard time taking any of those haters' positions on SWAPA needing to "give back to the company" seriously. You know?

Bubba

I understand, but you also have to remember that negotiations delayed indefinitely is essentially a concession in and of itself. The value of the dollar bill in your pocket decreases with each passing day. On average, it decreases by 3% per year. So if Gary stalls for 3-5 years, you have indeed lost something, even though you haven't inked your name to a concessionary agreement. That's his strategy. I guarantee it. And unless SWAPA is willing to apply pressure in the traditional ways, then you'll get nowhere and he'll get exactly what he wants. Randy knows this game. He fought it for years. He was brought in for a reason.

 

[PCL_128]

Hiring Randy Babbit doesn't concern me at all. You think he's some highly paid, highly sought after hired gun? Please.

Indeed he is. He made millions of dollars as a hired gun when he had his own company, Eclat Consulting.

 

[scoreboardII]

But he's still a drunk driver...

 

[redflyer65]

Indeed he is. He made millions of dollars as a hired gun when he had his own company, Eclat Consulting.

I don't see him bringing any creditbility to the table on anything PCL. Again, I'm not concerned.

We've always gotten retro pay as well PCL, and Gary understands that as too. We won't sign anything without it. It's a non-starter.

 

[Nindiri]

Getting some retro or a signing bonus is nice, but it never recovers all you lost by the company dragging it out. The company wins that game every time.

 

[PCL_128]

But he's still a drunk driver...

Wrong. Charges completely dismissed, and the judge even scolded the officer who pulled him over.

I'm certainly no fan of Babbitt. Consider him a backstabbing turncoat, in fact. But he's no drunk driver.

 

[PCL_128]

I don't see him bringing any creditbility to the table on anything PCL. Again, I'm not concerned.

We've always gotten retro pay as well PCL, and Gary understands that as well. We won't sign anything with it. It's a non-starter.

You're funny. I'll give you that.

 

[redflyer65]

I enjoyed a quiet weekend of the SW vs. Airtran banter. You guys can have at it. It's done and over. I'm sure SWAPA will be fine in the long run. With or without Randy.

 

[dicko]

Wow, someone needs to get laid...

Your negativism, hatred, and general pessimism to all things Southwest and SWAPA are duly noted. Fortunately, no one on this side cares what you think about this. Least of all, the people actually negotiating for us.

Jeez... are you sure you're not secretly negotiating for the company?

And yes, despite the little font and yellow color, we noticed...

Bubba

Homie,

Your sense of humor is showing. The lack of, is probably the worst of all attributes, besides ignorance. The word "hate" isn't in my lexicon. Certainly not when it's attributed to a job that I've valued since I was a child.

Make another note.

 

[waveflyer]

Not what I'm saying at all, I was just saying to take your own advice which is to take the first offer. Since you have all the answers, I will again wish you and SWAPA the best of luck.

You don't understand what we said- still... Just defense mechanisms so you get to pretend you aren't responsible for your lot

 

[waveflyer]

Homie,

Your sense of humor is showing. The lack of, is probably the worst of all attributes, besides ignorance. The word "hate" isn't in my lexicon. Certainly not when it's attributed to a job that I've valued since I was a child.

Make another note.

Homie, I find no fault in all of us just hanging this up and getting LAID
Best opinion yet

 

[Bake]

PCL, for once I completely agree with you. Every day SWAPA does not get a contract with pay raises we lose money. Retro or not, we lose. SWAPA does not have the cojones to fight SWA. Sad but True. OH, OH, Metallica, nevermind, lost my thought. I am concerned and think SWAPA is way outplayed.

 

[Kharma Police]

You don't understand what we said- still... Just defense mechanisms so you get to pretend you aren't responsible for your lot

Sorry Freud, but defense mechanism for what? The vote for us Trannys' is over, it's in the past. I just suggested you take your own advice. You can say, "thanks KP, I'll keep that in mind" or you can continue with your arrogant posturing. Either way again, I still wish you and SWAPA the best of luck.

 

[waveflyer]

That'll be your contract too-
So, thx- we'll keep your misunderstanding in mind and make sure we negotiate in good faith.

And bake, one of the FOs on the nc was in class w/ me- I don't share your take on swapa being overmatched.

 

[PCL_128]

And bake, one of the FOs on the nc was in class w/ me- I don't share your take on swapa being overmatched.

Don't kid yourself. Any pilot is outmatched at a bargaining table when he's going up against professionals. That's why ALPA has professional negotiators at the table with pilots.