SWA today like the airline in the book, "Nuts!"?

[scoreboardII]

It's not as much a work slow down as management holding fast on manning (meaning not enough where needed and when needed) so management can show the union they need to allow outsourcing to reduce costs.

It's very similar to flight operations not having enough bodies during peak flying times, then saying we need to outsource to cover those peak times.

The old tricks work best I guess, and with SWA hiring Randy, that's about as old school as you can get.

 

[humveedriver]

It's not as much a work slow down as management holding fast on manning (meaning not enough where needed and when needed) so management can show the union they need to allow outsourcing to reduce costs.

It's very similar to flight operations not having enough bodies during peak flying times, then saying we need to outsource to cover those peak times.

The old tricks work best I guess, and with SWA hiring Randy, that's about as old school as you can get.

I thought the contract ramp workers were suppose to be for bases that didn't justify full time staffing? Some minimum number? Not to compliment the staffing at larger bases.

Having said that; SWA does vacancy +/- monthly for pilots. This accounts for shifts in seasonal flying and vacation trading. But I'm assuming that the FA's, ramp and CSR's don't do this. Is the company looking to have less full time staff on the ground and cover the difference seasonally with contractors?

 

[scoreboardII]

Rampers, in their last contract, gave the company the right to outsource any base with less than 10 or so flights a day. That's about 30 airports.

This year is the first year SWA did that, and the rampers are howling how their jobs are being outsourced, just like they agreed too, just like MX gave away heavy lines of MX to Salvadore, they all did it for the money now. Their mistake, and one they'll lose in arbitration.

The company is doing a bang up job of showing how the contract guys are much cheaper, more accurate, and faster.

It's going to be real hard for rampers to demand anything when they are lowest in on-time and baggage stats in the industry. The company easily has them by throat on this issue.

Flash forward to todays contract talks, the rampers not only want ALL rampers under SWA, but don't want any part timers at any base. They also don't want any cut in pay to do this. I'm not giving them much hope. Nor will I nor anyone who knows the truth about the rampers giving up their jobs to get a higher rate of pay, will do anything to support them. They brought this on themselves. I also think, rampers and provo will soon be outsourced like AK did ala Mensies.

SWA is also trying to kill the golden goose known as sick bank. They want to limit it, and turn long term illness over to an insurance policy, just like pilot long term disability. I think again, SWA will win in arbitration.

Your last point, FA's are like pilots, they bid for base, but all ground folks are locked into their base, BUT, SWA is not required to keep any amount in a base, they could flex up and down and move folks, which they do and are doing.

 

[PCL_128]

The old tricks work best I guess, and with SWA hiring Randy, that's about as old school as you can get.

You're blaming Randy? Sorry, but that nonsense is homegrown. Just accept that people like VdV were not made from the same mold as Herb. It will probably just continue to get worse. Good luck.

 

[waveflyer]

Wave, just curious-

Which Legacy were you at?

The reason I ask is that the former Legacy guys are the ones who are saying these things the loudest. Talk to a former USAir guy. . . . Better yet, listen to one.

Yeah, I agree- I'm sure any hacker could figure it out- but I've kept it to myself thus far, and honestly I see mostly negligible differences between the line working environments at most. Bases. Who's got what routes and slots- but mostly homogenous -
That's where I hope we continue to celebrate the individual at SWA-

 

[scoreboardII]

You're blaming Randy? Sorry, but that nonsense is homegrown. Just accept that people like VdV were not made from the same mold as Herb. It will probably just continue to get worse. Good luck.

No, not blaming Randy, just saying that when an organization hires a DUI union busting hack, it's indicative of displaying just what VdV and the current crowd are made of, so in essence, we agree.

 

[superherc]

SWAPA and ALPA would never have agreed on what is "fair and equitable". Therefore I would have been happy to see it go to arbitration like we all agreed to. SW used threats and ultimatums to deny AirTran pilots their day in court. If an arbitrator returned a similar ISL, I wouldn't be on here bitching about it. I might not have agreed with it, but I'd have moved on by now. It's a lot different when one sides version of F&E is crammed up your arse hole.

Fair and equitable would have been better for all. It may have saved some AT captain seats, but it would have been much better for the junior SWA fo's. Any AT pilot without the PIC hours to meet SW hiring, welcome aboard, but on the bottom. IMO a straight ratios from top to bottom would have been best.

However it is still the best airline to work for. Great pay, flexibility of schedule, and people who want to work here.

 

[scoreboardII]

Fair and equitable would have been better for all. It may have saved some AT captain seats, but it would have been much better for the junior SWA fo's. Any AT pilot without the PIC hours to meet SW hiring, welcome aboard, but on the bottom. IMO a straight ratios from top to bottom would have been best.

However it is still the best airline to work for. Great pay, flexibility of schedule, and people who want to work here.

It is absurd to think junior SWA FO's would have had better results if AT pilots kept their CA seat.

Your implying that a fence would have prevented some of the issues of cross country commutes. Untrue.

 

[General Lee]

Fair and equitable would have been better for all. It may have saved some AT captain seats, but it would have been much better for the junior SWA fo's. Any AT pilot without the PIC hours to meet SW hiring, welcome aboard, but on the bottom. IMO a straight ratios from top to bottom would have been best.

However it is still the best airline to work for. Great pay, flexibility of schedule, and people who want to work here.

That's just not how it works. Arbitrators don't look at PIC hours, they figure you are qualified for the job, or you wouldn't be there. There were some super young DL guys that came from the regionals and they were not placed lower than the NWA pilots. Nope. See, this type of "ego" problem is the root of many of the perceived problems here. It is seniority based, not subjective. Next thing you'll look at is the "quality" of hours. All F-15 guys should top the list, followed by A-10 and then wheenie Navy guys....??? Come on.... Who comes up with this ego based seniority system?

Your airline may be great, but thanks to internal strife (at all labor groups) and upcoming negotiations probably for less money to regain LCC status, the "LUV" adjective may be losing it's luster. I wish you the best, though!



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Ty Webb]

It is absurd to think junior SWA FO's would have had better results if AT pilots kept their CA seat.

Your implying that a fence would have prevented some of the issues of cross country commutes. Untrue.

Well, right now, with less than 1/4 of the AAI guys transitioned, you have super-senior AAI Captains sitting at the top of the FO list in all bases; unable to upgrade until 2015, they are pushing all FO's down, instead of spreading the pain throughout the CA list as well. Someone worked the numbers, and said that MCO will largely become manned by former AAI guys. . . . Where will all those RSW pilots flow? To the other bases, of course.

Also, once the AAI guys that choose to upgrade do so, the RSW guys who got a 2013-2014 upgrade will be stuck on reserve for many years as the hundreds of AAI guys who are actually senior to them start upgrading.

 

[madjack]

No planes no seats...Arby 101

 

[Ty Webb]

No planes no seats...Arby 101

I guess that means you'd still be stuck in the right seat, MJ.

No planes, no upgrade. :crying:

 

[canyonblue]

Also, once the AAI guys that choose to upgrade do so, the RSW guys who got a 2013-2014 upgrade will be stuck on reserve for many years as the hundreds of AAI guys who are actually senior to them start upgrading.

There are many senior RSW FO's that either waited to upgrade, or will upgrade next year. Many of those only have 100-200 AAI pilots that are senior to them, with 180 scheduled retirements by 2015. Those pilots will likely see a wash on their seniority. Of course with the good old SWA vacancy bidding cycle, that could change if there are no CA upgrade classes in 2015. Believe me, age 65 sucked the life out of this place with no Captain vacancy bids for 5 years. Hope we never see that again.

 

[scoreboardII]

Well, right now, with less than 1/4 of the AAI guys transitioned, you have super-senior AAI Captains sitting at the top of the FO list in all bases; unable to upgrade until 2015, they are pushing all FO's down, instead of spreading the pain throughout the CA list as well. Someone worked the numbers, and said that MCO will largely become manned by former AAI guys. . . . Where will all those RSW pilots flow? To the other bases, of course.

Also, once the AAI guys that choose to upgrade do so, the RSW guys who got a 2013-2014 upgrade will be stuck on reserve for many years as the hundreds of AAI guys who are actually senior to them start upgrading.

Possible.

Just as possible is that as the planes and pilots transitioned over as AT to SWA CA/FO's, those same pilots would push out those same junior guys from MCO/BWI.

The only difference which would be occurring if AT CA kept their seats, is SWA senior FO's would not be CA, AND, more importantly, the end game retirement value would be lower for senior SWA FO's.

When the balloon is squeezed, the other side gets big, same for vacancies, it matters not what side of a fence or non fence or seat lock plan you are on, when your on the squeezed side, you get moved.

 

[redflyer65]

It's really a Zero Sum gain right now..

For the AAI guys coming over (that are senior), we upgrade a senior SW first officer. So the FO list really remains the same.....with the exception of where those former AAI guys want to be based.

 

[madjack]

No crying, I am happy to go back to senior FO, unbelievable life style, my point was with the 88 dc9s gone your CP Seats left the property...ur airline is being dismantled, in reality ur lucky to have a job...this was not my idea, and as far as upgrading, I'm in the left seat regardless of AAI, i was a VERY Sr SWA FO...there are more SWA CPs under me now, and I can thank ur MEC for that...and so can they...u have a tough fight ahead in the DRC and no matter the outcome it's time to move on...

 

[Ty Webb]

No crying, I am happy to go back to senior FO, unbelievable life style, my point was with the 88 dc9s gone your CP Seats left the property...ur airline is being dismantled, in reality ur lucky to have a job...this was not my idea, and as far as upgrading, I'm in the left seat regardless of AAI, i was a VERY Sr SWA FO...there are more SWA CPs under me now, and I can thank ur MEC for that...and so can they...u have a tough fight ahead in the DRC and no matter the outcome it's time to move on...

Wacky Jack, you wouldn't be upgraded without our 737 airframes that have come over. . . . . So, man up and say "thank you", you putz.

Don't worry, you can thank me in person,, when they double-deadhead you to provide reserve coverage in MCO. Of course, I'll be making more than you, but you'll have the tiller to "guard". . . .

 

[madjack]

That is pretty funny Ty, and I do enjoy your banter, and though you are wrong about my situation, it is certainly true for CPs junior to me....

If everyone could step away from their egos for a minute we would realize we are all lucky to have jobs at a major airline...think of the thousands of folks in the regionals and the thousands more in part 91 and 135 land whose careers are anything but linear and they may never see any seat at a major...

Let's face another fact, before the acquisition nobody believed a career at AAI was more valuable then one at SWA...no one, not GL, not PCL, not even you Ty (remember step away fm the ego).... This career is about luck, timing, and making money and going home... The acq of AAI by SWA has not derailed most AAI pilots careers...it was a move up to a more lucrative (career earnings) and more stable combined company (job security)...you may have some AAI pilots who followed a mon linear career path who are older and may have made more career earnings at AAI, but the vast majority of the young AAI pilot force will do better at SWA than at a Stand alone AAI... Don't thank me, thank GK and ur CEO for the deal....

And Ty, if it helps that healthy ego of yours to adjust to being a "lowly" Senior SWA FO for a couple years, thanks for my CP seat!

 

[madjack]

Ty, you said it your self, you will be making more as a senior MCO/ATL SWA FO than a reserve CP at SWA, probably with a much better QOL to boot...is your ego so huge that you cannot see that the purchase and demise of AAI was a good thing for your airline career? Or is losing that CP seat too big an ego bust??

I don't think you or most of your fellow AAI pilots, really want to roll the dice with the "new and improved DL", their track record of "industry leading compensation" followed by industry downturn and then furloughs/BK and outsourcing is not what I would call stability in this business...make the most of your new career opportunities at SWA, and put thanks where it really belongs, with the 3000 RSW FOs that are taking it in the shorts to make room for the AAI pilots on the SWA seniority list....

 

[texman]

Wacky Jack, you wouldn't be upgraded without our 737 airframes that have come over. . . . . So, man up and say "thank you", you putz.

Don't worry, you can thank me in person,, when they double-deadhead you to provide reserve coverage in MCO. Of course, I'll be making more than you, but you'll have the tiller to "guard". . . .

Through our retirements he would have upgraded.

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty, you said it your self, you will be making more as a senior MCO/ATL SWA FO than a reserve CP at SWA, .

That's not what I said.

What I said was that if you and I fly together, I will be making more than you . . . on that flight. . . because if I'm working with you, buddy, it will be for super premium pay.

I will not be making more at SWA as a commuting pilot, I'll be making less.

I currently work about 13 days a month, including my commute.

At SWA, if I work 13 days a month, including commute, I won't be making anything like what I make here.

PS., I haven't had to work a Thanksgiving, Christmas, Fourth of July, or any major holiday in probably five or six years. Something to put in your OAK crack pipe and suck on next Christmas, MJ.

 

[Just thinking]

Don't worry Ty.... they will whine and cry no matter what. After you fly with some of the senior RSW pilots you will hear how they have been going downhill for a while now. They also complain about the RSW FO's complaining about having the FAT pilots pushing them down in the seniority list. The senior FO's would have upgraded with the retirements but nowhere near at the rate in the past year and next year (seat grab).
March 2004 hire is Captain in BWI so they are not "super senior" in any stretch of the imagination. They have 500 more to go next year so the Captain list will be chuck full for quite a while preventing any FAT pilots from upgrading.... regardless of their global seniority. Once the upgrades start happening (2017-2019) they (seat grabbers) will be on perpetual reserve and get displaced out of their bases as the FAT upgrades start (unless the negotiating team and GK hook up for another rope a dope.)
They complain about the same things that is complained about in every airline. Have not flown with any prima donnas yet but I have not flown with madjack yet.

 

[madjack]

JT,

Like most SWA CP, I am not a prima donna, as a matter of fact I am probably too laid back...

Ty, the question is not what you will make next year but over the course of your career...if you had a linear airline career, you got to AAI right out of the military or a regional....you spent 10-11 years at AAI and then the company was sold to SWA...now you will be a 80-85kish SWA FO, which as long as we keep upgrading, will make you a senior FO in ATL come 1/15/2013....You will be SWA FO a few years (not commuting and getting weekends and holidays off) and then let's say 5 years from now, YOU decide you want to be a SWA CP, then, by your choice you will commute to reserve...it sounds to me like you are following a fairly linear airline career...your initially "lateral' move to SWA (AAI CP to senior SWA FO) will be rewarded down the road with an upgrade to SWA CP, you will enjoy an increase in overall career earnings and be part of a stable SWA.

You would be at DL if you wanted to, I feel you do not and you saw an opportunity at AAI and were awarded with a quick upgrade there and a fairly high spot in the SWA seniority list when your company was sold.

You are upset because you did not get what you think you "earned or derserved" or what an arby might have given you. I am not apologizing for the way this went down (I was shocked your MEC turned down SL9 and if you ask me that is where the law suit needs to happen) but your airline career could have gone much worse than it looks like it will, you are a "made" man and you will never have to look for another pilot job again...think how lucky you really are!

 

[PCL_128]

Let's face another fact, before the acquisition nobody believed a career at AAI was more valuable then one at SWA...no one, not GL, not PCL, not even you Ty

Wrong. The problem is that you only place value on money. I place value on QOL and other intangibles. To me, a career at SWA was pretty much devoid of value. That's why I never applied. I didn't want to commute, and I didn't want to live in any SWA bases. To me, that made a career at SWA worthless. Add in the quick-turn style flying, the high block months, etc., it just wasn't anything I wanted anything to do with. That's not to say that it doesn't have value....to someone else. It just doesn't have any value to me. AirTran, on the other hand, did.

 

[Bake]

then go fly for Airtran.

 

[madjack]

Well, such inflexibility may warrant a career change...

 

[K-Mart]

Wrong. The problem is that you only place value on money. I place value on QOL and other intangibles. To me, a career at SWA was pretty much devoid of value. That's why I never applied. I didn't want to commute, and I didn't want to live in any SWA bases. To me, that made a career at SWA worthless. Add in the quick-turn style flying, the high block months, etc., it just wasn't anything I wanted anything to do with. That's not to say that it doesn't have value....to someone else. It just doesn't have any value to me. AirTran, on the other hand, did.

I think this article relates to your dream job. Or maybe your hero, I don't know which.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/labor_big_real_heavy_sleeper_jl3C7gI710FI3XqpEl5o3O

 

[canyonblue]

That's why I never applied.

You wouldn't have been called anyway.

 

[maxblast72]

I was shocked your MEC turned down SL9 and if you ask me that is where the law suit needs to happen

119 AirTran pilots have filed a lawsuit dealing with how the MEC conducted themselves during the summer of 2011. Right now we are in the discovery phase (document production and depositions being taken). The truth is trickling out and will be there for everyone to see in a few more months. Here is an email that was entered into the record at a deposition last month:


　
"As you have probably already heard, your MEC has collectively decided to send this next agreement out for a vote. Incidentally, on AIP1 I was the single rep that voted to send that agreement to the pilots for a vote. That was a decision that I took very seriously and I am disappointed that the rest of the voting body did not agree with my assessment of the gravity of the situation, as I had no intention of EVER gambling with anyone's future without giving them a say in the outcome. Feel free to call if you would like to talk."

- AirTran MEC rep to a line pilot on September 4, 2011

 

[Kenney G]

119 AirTran pilots have filed a lawsuit dealing with how the MEC conducted themselves during the summer of 2011. Right now we are in the discovery phase (document production and depositions being taken). The truth is trickling out and will be there for everyone to see in a few more months. Here is an email that was entered into the record at a deposition last month:


　
"As you have probably already heard, your MEC has collectively decided to send this next agreement out for a vote. Incidentally, on AIP1 I was the single rep that voted to send that agreement to the pilots for a vote. That was a decision that I took very seriously and I am disappointed that the rest of the voting body did not agree with my assessment of the gravity of the situation, as I had no intention of EVER gambling with anyone's future without giving them a say in the outcome. Feel free to call if you would like to talk."

- AirTran MEC rep to a line pilot on September 4, 2011

Who says that one was right and the others were not?