SWA today like the airline in the book, "Nuts!"?

[PCL_128]

I'm as pissed off as anyone, and even I nod and say hi to the SWA guys I see. I haven't really seen any open animosity displayed by anyone on either side, in ATL or anywhere else. Now, if I ran across Steve Chase in the crew lounge, that might be a different story.

 

[Tripower455]

I'm as pissed off as anyone, and even I nod and say hi to the SWA guys I see. I haven't really seen any open animosity displayed by anyone on either side, in ATL or anywhere else. Now, if I ran across Steve Chase in the crew lounge, that might be a different story.

Funny, most SW guys feel the same way.......

 

[DonVerita]

Exactly why would there be a reason to accept a flat contract? You realize that "flattish" means exactly what we currently have, correct? We are not operating under a draconian bankruptcy imposed contract with terrible rates and rules. We will negotiate until we reach an improved CBA, there is no reason to do otherwise. With retro pay there is just no reason to stop the negotiating process until you reach a deal that gives you the gains that are necessary to get a yes vote. Flat is just another way to describe what we already have, there is absolutely no incentive to sign a new deal with no improvements.

On that note, a question: SWAPA agreed to fly the -800 at the same pay rate as the rest of the fleet. Did that agreement have an expiration date with a snap up provision to higher pay rate? If not, do you think your upcoming contract will have a separate pay category for the -800 and the -MAX?

For reference - AirTran did not fly the -800, but had options for them. If they had arrived on property, the AirTran contract already specified that those aircraft will see a 13% hourly pay increase over the -700 fleet.

 

[SWA Bubba]

On that note, a question: SWAPA agreed to fly the -800 at the same pay rate as the rest of the fleet. Did that agreement have an expiration date with a snap up provision to higher pay rate? If not, do you think your upcoming contract will have a separate pay category for the -800 and the -MAX?

For reference - AirTran did not fly the -800, but had options for them. If they had arrived on property, the AirTran contract already specified that those aircraft will see a 13% hourly pay increase over the -700 fleet.

This is part of the point.

We agreed to fly the -800 for the same rate (also, by the way, setting the precedent for keeping the same rate for the "smaller" 717, as it was scheduled to be on property), AND to fly near international for the same rate, with just an increase in international per diem. We also gave GK his quick agreement and a waiver to integrate the AirTran fleet and pilots to capture synergies. We did all this in record time. The fact that IT issues are now holding us back somewhat is immaterial.

So to directly answer your question: no, there's no "snapup" to a higher rate for the -800, nor do I think or expect that SWAPA is asking for a higher rate on the new contract. They're asking for across-the-board improvements, concentrating on three things: retirement, reserve, and overall compensation. Straight pay rates on the fleet will be the same: -300, -500, -700, and -800. That's the way the majority of the group polled.

For you AirTran guys (and General Lee, for some reason) who like to say that SWAPA "owes" GK for the way the SLI went down, I repeat that it's crap. We don't owe GK anything. There will be no concessions from SWAPA as a "payback." The SLI happened that way, because management wanted it to happen that way. And I believe that the negative aspects of the agreement were due to management's anger over the way ALPA handled the non-vote of the first deal.

Again, we already did our part. GK didn't do us a favor that needs to be paid back; we did him a favor that needs to be paid back. We did what management wanted, and said that they needed, to help the bottom line. We already gave at the office. We know this; management knows this; hell, everyone knows this. (Even General Lee knows this--he just won't admit it, because it undercuts some of his anti-SWA crap.) "Flattish" is management's opening position, because it's their job to try to keep expectations low. That's how negotiations work.

Bubba

 

[Kharma Police]

This is part of the point.

We agreed to fly the -800 for the same rate (also, by the way, setting the precedent for keeping the same rate for the "smaller" 717, as it was scheduled to be on property), AND to fly near international for the same rate, with just an increase in international per diem. We also gave GK his quick agreement and a waiver to integrate the AirTran fleet and pilots to capture synergies. We did all this in record time. The fact that IT issues are now holding us back somewhat is immaterial.

So to directly answer your question: no, there's no "snapup" to a higher rate for the -800, nor do I think or expect that SWAPA is asking for a higher rate on the new contract. They're asking for across-the-board improvements, concentrating on three things: retirement, reserve, and overall compensation. Straight pay rates on the fleet will be the same: -300, -500, -700, and -800. That's the way the majority of the group polled.

For you AirTran guys (and General Lee, for some reason) who like to say that SWAPA "owes" GK for the way the SLI went down, I repeat that it's crap. We don't owe GK anything. There will be no concessions from SWAPA as a "payback." The SLI happened that way, because management wanted it to happen that way. And I believe that the negative aspects of the agreement were due to management's anger over the way ALPA handled the non-vote of the first deal.

Again, we already did our part. GK didn't do us a favor that needs to be paid back; we did him a favor that needs to be paid back. We did what management wanted, and said that they needed, to help the bottom line. We already gave at the office. We know this; management knows this; hell, everyone knows this. (Even General Lee knows this--he just won't admit it, because it undercuts some of his anti-SWA crap.) "Flattish" is management's opening position, because it's their job to try to keep expectations low. That's how negotiations work.

Bubba

Get a clue, Gary Kelly didn't hire Randy Babbitt to be your bestie, he hired him to be a tough negotiator. Welcome to the real world of airline negotiations, good luck.

 

[PCL_128]

This is part of the point.

We agreed to fly the -800 for the same rate (also, by the way, setting the precedent for keeping the same rate for the "smaller" 717, as it was scheduled to be on property), AND to fly near international for the same rate, with just an increase in international per diem. We also gave GK his quick agreement and a waiver to integrate the AirTran fleet and pilots to capture synergies. We did all this in record time. The fact that IT issues are now holding us back somewhat is immaterial.

So to directly answer your question: no, there's no "snapup" to a higher rate for the -800, nor do I think or expect that SWAPA is asking for a higher rate on the new contract. They're asking for across-the-board improvements, concentrating on three things: retirement, reserve, and overall compensation. Straight pay rates on the fleet will be the same: -300, -500, -700, and -800. That's the way the majority of the group polled.

For you AirTran guys (and General Lee, for some reason) who like to say that SWAPA "owes" GK for the way the SLI went down, I repeat that it's crap. We don't owe GK anything. There will be no concessions from SWAPA as a "payback." The SLI happened that way, because management wanted it to happen that way. And I believe that the negative aspects of the agreement were due to management's anger over the way ALPA handled the non-vote of the first deal.

Again, we already did our part. GK didn't do us a favor that needs to be paid back; we did him a favor that needs to be paid back. We did what management wanted, and said that they needed, to help the bottom line. We already gave at the office. We know this; management knows this; hell, everyone knows this. (Even General Lee knows this--he just won't admit it, because it undercuts some of his anti-SWA crap.) "Flattish" is management's opening position, because it's their job to try to keep expectations low. That's how negotiations work.

Bubba

I'm glad you look at it that way. But I can guarantee you that Gary doesn't.

 

[HowardBorden]

I'm glad you look at it that way. But I can guarantee you that Gary doesn't.

Of course he doesn't, that's why we are still in the negotiation phase. We do have some easily quantifiable data points to use in making our arguments. Capacity was allowed to grow with no increase in crew costs. Recent record revenues are directly linked to operating larger aircraft with similar operating costs but carrying more revenue generating passengers. We are profitable, there are many arguments to be made concerning the pilots slice of that pie.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Get a clue, Gary Kelly didn't hire Randy Babbitt to be your bestie, he hired him to be a tough negotiator. Welcome to the real world of airline negotiations, good luck.

I have a clue. And I know that Randy Babbitt is here to be a negotiator for the company. Duh. They have their positions, and we have ours. We're negotiating. All I said was that SWAPA's recent contributions are recognizable to all.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

I'm glad you look at it that way. But I can guarantee you that Gary doesn't.

Sure; I'm an optimist by nature.

My post was primarily for all the pessimists and haters out there clamoring about SWAPA giving "concessions" to the company. Negotiations are negotiations, no matter what two entities are involved. And since the company's opening position was "flattish," i.e. NOT even starting off asking for concessions, I have a hard time taking any of those haters' positions on SWAPA needing to "give back to the company" seriously. You know?

Bubba

 

[Kharma Police]

I have a clue. And I know that Randy Babbitt is here to be a negotiator for the company. Duh. They have their positions, and we have ours. We're negotiating. All I said was that SWAPA's recent contributions are recognizable to all.

Bubba

Not trying to throw stones since I'm by default part of the "family" but since you have already gladly given them pretty much everything they want (with no provision to get it back), you have nothing to negotiate other than to try and keep what you have. Good luck SWAPA, we're all counting on you.....

 

[dicko]

You have zero leverage. Nada, nothing, zip. He knows that you'll do as your told, no matter what he does. You will apply zero pressure, apart from stern glances and slightly less festive ties.Your pilot groups collective personality is built upon a relationship that no longer exists.

Your boss hired an ex ALPA President. That's like the Israelis stealing the Iranians head of Nuclear Programs. I know that's a poor analogy due to the massive difference in relative IQ, but bear with me.

The good news is that SWAPA can read about BATNA in the Wikipedia article that they contributed to. They can also enjoy the phrase "the first offer is always the best".

'Hoisted by your own Petard'.







yes I realize that this applies to me too. Hoping nobody notices

 

[SWA Bubba]

You have zero leverage. Nada, nothing, zip. He knows that you'll do as your told, no matter what he does. You will apply zero pressure, apart from stern glances and slightly less festive ties.Your pilot groups collective personality is built upon a relationship that no longer exists.

Your boss hired an ex ALPA President. That's like the Israelis stealing the Iranians head of Nuclear Programs. I know that's a poor analogy due to the massive difference in relative IQ, but bear with me.

The good news is that SWAPA can read about BATNA in the Wikipedia article that they contributed to. They can also enjoy the phrase "the first offer is always the best".

'Hoisted by your own Petard'.







yes I realize that this applies to me too. Hoping nobody notices

Wow, someone needs to get laid...

Your negativism, hatred, and general pessimism to all things Southwest and SWAPA are duly noted. Fortunately, no one on this side cares what you think about this. Least of all, the people actually negotiating for us.

Jeez... are you sure you're not secretly negotiating for the company?

And yes, despite the little font and yellow color, we noticed...

Bubba

 

[humveedriver]

Wow, someone needs to get laid...

Your negativism, hatred, and general pessimism to all things Southwest and SWAPA are duly noted. Fortunately, no one on this side cares what you think about this. Least of all, the people actually negotiating for us.

Jeez... are you sure you're not secretly negotiating for the company?

And yes, despite the little font and yellow color, we noticed...

Bubba

C'mon really? That's some funny stuff Dicko dished out. I thought the less festive ties was pretty good. I suspect your negotiation process is just far less dramatic than what we are used to. No hostages, or chair throwing or any of that stuff.

 

[SWA Bubba]

C'mon really? That's some funny stuff Dicko dished out. I thought the less festive ties was pretty good. I suspect your negotiation process is just far less dramatic than what we are used to. No hostages, or chair throwing or any of that stuff.

Well...

It's sometimes to tell the difference between when he's being funny (quite often), and when he's being an ass (to be honest, that seems less often then it used to be).

And so far, the only hostages have been the "Flattish won't Fly" tags, although apparently, they were rescued.

Bubba

 

[waveflyer]

On that note, a question: SWAPA agreed to fly the -800 at the same pay rate as the rest of the fleet. Did that agreement have an expiration date with a snap up provision to higher pay rate? If not, do you think your upcoming contract will have a separate pay category for the -800 and the -MAX?

For reference - AirTran did not fly the -800, but had options for them. If they had arrived on property, the AirTran contract already specified that those aircraft will see a 13% hourly pay increase over the -700 fleet.

Two things

A- we don't want divided rates here and most agree-
If we bought 787's, we'd want one increased rate for everyone and not get into the divided carrot chasing career others have

B) if gk and execs are getting raises/ I better also
That's a common sentiment

 

[freightdogfred]

Not trying to throw stones since I'm by default part of the "family" but since you have already gladly given them pretty much everything they want (with no provision to get it back), you have nothing to negotiate other than to try and keep what you have. Good luck SWAPA, we're all counting on you.....

This pretty much sums it all up. All the usual suspects from the SWAPA side who post here have told us many times the first offer is always best.

Why has SWAPA not inked a deal

 

[humveedriver]

The 13% override went away with the new contract. 2001 had the override.

 

[jhill]

I just finished reading the book "Nuts!" which was a very good and insightful read. I did think it was interesting reading through the chapters and realizing that the airline described in the book specifically the management style doesn't appear to resemble the airline today. Do any "Real Southwest" pilots agree or will I see things vastly different when I'm off to Dallas someday soon for two months?

Definitely not the same but still the best place I ever worked. Just not the same as it was. Too big I guess. GK is just a lot different but no one could follow Herb. When you come over you will still be very pleased. I promise everyone will treat you well. Utopia it aint but it aint bad neither

 

[SWA Bubba]

This pretty much sums it all up. All the usual suspects from the SWAPA side who post here have told us many times the first offer is always best.

Why has SWAPA not inked a deal

I think they mean the first agreed-upon, negotiated TA. Not the first thing that comes out of the other side's mouth. We're nowhere near that yet. Does that answer your question, or did you really actually have a question?

Bubba

 

[redflyer65]

This pretty much sums it all up. All the usual suspects from the SWAPA side who post here have told us many times the first offer is always best.

Why has SWAPA not inked a deal

No. We told you time and time again that with the SLI agreement, the first negotiated deal would probably be the best. You guys scoffed and puffed out your chest and told us we were crazy. The facts in the end proved what we said. The second deal sucked. You had one good bite at the Apple and the MEC choked on it.

Hiring Randy Babbit doesn't concern me at all. You think he's some highly paid, highly sought after hired gun? Please.