SWA today like the airline in the book, "Nuts!"?

[-9Capt]

Here's a question.....Why did Kelly want the SLI done so quickly?

Check out the last paragraph:



By Ben Mutzabaugh, USA TODAY

Southwest may have an "alternate plan" for AirTran if pilots at the latter vote against a deal to combine seniority lists with their Southwest counterparts.

That's according to The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, where reporter Kelly Yamanouchi writes:

In an effort to encourage pilots to approve the deal, Southwest has raised the possibility of a Plan B: that AirTran may not fully integrate as planned into Southwest if the pilot proposal fails.

"If we receive a 'no' vote, it means that we cannot execute the original integration plan and we will have to reset," Southwest spokesman Paul Flaningan says in a written statement to the Journal-Constitution.

The newspaper writes the prospect of a Plan B "came up shortly after AirTran's pilots union leadership voted against an initial deal … ."

In that situation, Southwest CEO Gary Kelly expressed disappointment that the tentative deal on seniority was never put to AirTran's union membership for a vote.

For now, Southwest says it's continuing to integrate AirTran's operations.

But things might look different if Southwest does eventually resort to the newly reported alternate plan.

In that scenario -- which at least one analyst suspects is a negotiating ploy -- Southwest would continue to operate subsidiary AirTran as a separate operation , a move that would still give it access to AirTran's fleet, Atlanta hub and its international routes

But the Journal-Constitution reports such a plan could also set the stage for a "slow dismantling" of AirTran, perhaps similar to how Southwest handled its acquisition of now-defunct Muse Air in the 1980s.

When asked specifically about that passage, Southwest spokeswoman Beth Harbin told Today in the Sky:

I know there has been a lot of speculation. It's natural, I guess, during a time when a potential agreement is introduced, people are reading their way through it, and making conclusions. The Muse Air acquisition was 30 years ago. It was an approach. Not the only approach. We believe Pilots today have a fair offer to consider and are optimistic they will approve it.

Bloomberg News also picks up on the story, writing "keeping AirTran flying on its own would run counter to the goal of folding the discount carrier into Southwest, the biggest low-fare airline."

"I''m sure that's not what management planned when they acquired AirTran," Hunter Keay, an analyst at Wolfe Trahan & Co. in New York, says to Bloomberg. "It probably is to some degree a negotiating tactic."

The Bloomberg report makes no mention any possible dismantling of AirTran. Referencing the same summary cited by the Journal-Constitution, Bloomberg quotes Southwest as saying simply "Plan B calls for AAI (AirTran) and SWA (Southwest) to remain separate and unintegrated."

As for the background of the AirTran pilots' seniority issue, the Journal-Constitution says some AirTran pilots believe going to arbitration could net them a better deal.

Others, however, appear to be frustrated -- as evidenced by a Tuesday move to recall three union leaders amid what the Journal-Constitution writes is "discontent over the union leadership decision to decline the first offer."

As for Southwest, spokeswoman Beth Harbin tells Bloomberg: "Our focus is going to be on getting the deal with the pilots done quickly because that really does set a good momentum for the rest of the integration."

 

[madjack]

Good question...the company has gotten everything it has wanted, as a stock holder, that is good news, stronger combined company, while divesting of an unwanted airframe at minimal cost...and the real feather in the cap is both pilot groups overwhelmingly agreed to the deal... I am completely sympathetic to the current DRC involving the fall out of the flush bid...I think GK, will break out the check book...but it is tough to listen to someone like PCL malign everyone who disagreed with him... It was a catastrophic miscalculation on the MECs part to deny the mbrship a vote...all words and opinions on this matter do not takeaway from the truth that we would not be byatching on an anonymous forum today if your mbrship had voted in SL9...the issue of pay, ATL, and CP seats would be moot... You cannot deny this fact, it was a horrible mistake in hindsight, the leadership should not have gambled...the 717 leaving early was facilitated by the demise of SL9... Good luck with the DRC..

 

[SWA Bubba]

So ALPA should have disregarded the will of its dues paying membership and capitulated to the demands of SWAPA and Gary Kelly?

Absent arbitration, the only option would have been accepting a less than favorable SLI. ALPA did what the majority of the membership was telling them to do. The first agreement was an insult and it was rightfully rejected by the MEC. For some reason GK feels he has a right to influence our union proceedings and was insulted when he didn't get his way. That was when he picked up a big stick. Screw him and his airline.

We could all argue this forever, and no one will see the other's side. Plus, since it was settled one way, nobody on either side knows what would have happened if we had gone down the other path. You can guess and bluster all you want, but you don't know for sure.

However, having said that, there's something you said that I don't think is believable. You said that "the majority of the membership was telling" the MEC to reject the first AIP. Right? If that was really the case, that the MEC thought the deal would be rejected by the membership, then they most certainly should have allowed a vote. Then you would have gotten the arbitration you obviously wanted. I believe that the only way we were going to see arbitration was if an agreement actually went to a vote, and one side or the other voted it down. GK couldn't have been more clear about that--that he wanted every pilot to be able to vote. When the AirTran MEC indicated that it wasn't going to "play ball," he essentially forced them to play and have a membership-wide vote.

I think the opposite of your supposition was true--the MEC probably felt that their constituents would vote to accept, and they thought they could get more their way. So they didn't allow a vote. I even think PCL would agree--he's always implying your membership are collectively sheep.

Ironically, if the first AIP went to a vote, I think there's a reasonable chance that the SWA side might have voted no. Then Gary would have gotten the vote he wanted, and your MEC would have gotten the arbitration it wanted.

Anyway, not that any of that matters now.

Bubba

 

[PCL_128]

If that was really the case, that the MEC thought the deal would be rejected by the membership, then they most certainly should have allowed a vote.

Haven't we discussed this before? Maybe that was with someone else. But the reason they didn't want to send it out, even knowing that it would die a resounding death, was that the Process Agreement contained some hard deadlines for when the different phases began, and a ratification process that was doomed for failure would have eaten up all of the prep time for mediation/arbitration. We would have had a failed AIP, then immediately rushed into mediation without prep time.

I think the opposite of your supposition was true--the MEC probably felt that their constituents would vote to accept, and they thought they could get more their way. So they didn't allow a vote. I even think PCL would agree--he's always implying your membership are collectively sheep.

No, I actually disagree. The cowardice of the membership didn't rear its ugly head until after GK sent out his mildly threatening letter the week after the MEC voted down the TA. Prior to that, the pilot group was at least 3-1, probably 4-1, opposed to the deal, and demanding that the MEC vote it down. The anger that the deal was even reached was palpable. But as soon as GK started throwing around some "scary" words, a lot of people got weak in the knees. A lot more than I ever would have expected, especially after a 98% strike vote just a year prior.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Haven't we discussed this before? Maybe that was with someone else. But the reason they didn't want to send it out, even knowing that it would die a resounding death, was that the Process Agreement contained some hard deadlines for when the different phases began, and a ratification process that was doomed for failure would have eaten up all of the prep time for mediation/arbitration. We would have had a failed AIP, then immediately rushed into mediation without prep time.



No, I actually disagree. The cowardice of the membership didn't rear its ugly head until after GK sent out his mildly threatening letter the week after the MEC voted down the TA. Prior to that, the pilot group was at least 3-1, probably 4-1, opposed to the deal, and demanding that the MEC vote it down. The anger that the deal was even reached was palpable. But as soon as GK started throwing around some "scary" words, a lot of people got weak in the knees. A lot more than I ever would have expected, especially after a 98% strike vote just a year prior.

Sorry, obviously I still don't agree with your characterizations, but thanks for at least being civil about the fact that we don't see eye to eye on what happened or might have happened.

Bubba

 

[-9Capt]

GK couldn't have been more clear about that--that he wanted every pilot to be able to vote.

That's fine, he can want whatever he wants to want...but wasn't his decision to make, it was ours. He stuck his nose into our union process which doesn't bode well for establishing a good, lasting employee relationship. Like I said before, our piss poor attitude shouldn't surprise anyone.

 

[SWA Bubba]

That's fine, he can want whatever he wants to want...but wasn't his decision to make, it was ours. He stuck his nose into our union process which doesn't bode well for establishing a good, lasting employee relationship. Like I said before, our piss poor attitude shouldn't surprise anyone.

Well, you can certainly run your union any way you want, but running the airline (or airlines) how he wanted to, or felt he needed to, WAS his decision to make, whether you want to believe that or not. And obviously, you can have any attitude you want, but fortunately, every FAT guy I've run into so far has had a great attitude. The only piss-poor attitudes I've seen (from either side, for that matter) have been on this board. So far, so good.

Bubba

 

[-9Capt]

You'll prob start seeing more as the pissed off ones are forced over.

 

[scoreboardII]

Probably not. Talk is cheap, once we are all one big happy family, even at the bar the most you might get is one guy claiming he was more screwed than the other, then they both realize they both got screwed, and drink happily ever after. Will someone take it to an extreme? Sure, there's always one in every crowd. Will most feel screwed forever? Sure. But in the end they will realize that pilots had zero to do with how this played out.

 

[-9Capt]

Then someone please explain to me how SW pilots guys got screwed. Whenever someone says that, all I hear is...850 new upgrades and an across the board bump in seniority wasn't enough...or...your seniority loss wasn't enough...