SWA today like the airline in the book, "Nuts!"?

[waveflyer]

Plc-
Just stop. Most of your own guys aren't buying what you're selling

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

He is not representative of the vast majority of AT FO's.

^^^^^
Spot on!

 

[tankerhead]

You must not be very bright if you can't figure out that reserve going senior for people who live locally means that more junior guys who don't live locally don't get stuck on a reserve schedule that they don't want. It works better for everybody.

Take a look at a few bid awards to see how junior most reserve still goes.

My original statement that triggered your sage dispensation of knowledge was that reserve lines through the summer only had 12 days off. You twisted it to suit your selfish views. You are a joke, a bad one, but a joke nevertheless.

Reply if you like, but you're just digging a bigger hole (which is appropriate). I won't waste any more time responding to your rubbish.

 

[PCL_128]

won't waste any more time responding to your rubbish.

Ditto.

 

[canyonblue]

Not really. It's really more like 20+, because unlike SWA, you don't get used.

No it's not 20+ if you are kept on a tether by scheduling, it's just days that you didn't have to fly an airplane. Also, the reason Reserve doesn't go senior at SWA is because those guys are already getting 19 days off, or more if they choose to give away a trip or two.

 

[PCL_128]

No it's not 20+ if you are kept on a tether by scheduling, it's just days that you didn't have to fly an airplane. Also, the reason Reserve doesn't go senior at SWA is because those guys are already getting 19 days off, or more if they choose to give away a trip or two.

With a real reserve system, it's not really a tether. I know this is a difficult concept for the rented mules to understand, so try to keep up. When you have a reserve bucket system with full transparency, you know exactly where you are in the list to get called at any given moment. You can pull up the list, see that you're number twelve to get called with nothing in open time, and know that you've got the day off and can go do what you want. Hardly a tether. Does it still keep you in Atlanta if you're a commuter? Sure. But that's why an airline with a major airline reserve system also has long-call reserve, rather than having the regional airline reserve system that you have. Our long-call guys don't waste time sitting around Atlanta away from home, and they still get the same days off or more than the SWA reserves.

There's nothing wrong with looking at the facts objectively and admitting that your reserve work rules absolutely suck. In fact, it's the only way that it will ever get fixed. But I suspect that you're the type who doesn't give a flying f--- about the junior guys on reserve, and wouldn't even consider giving up a five cent pay raise to make their lives better.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

We have only had this system for what, a year and a half? And only since we have been owned by SWA. Prior to that Airtran reserve system sucked and was worse than my prior regional by far. URP'ing, 10 days off, they could change your reserve periods, put you into rest in the middle of the day to fly standups, reserve in other bases, fly it and grieve it, just to name a few of the stellar parts of the contract. Plus we have twice as many people on reserve. I like how we have amnesia to the contract we were operating under at date of purchase.

 

[redflyer65]

We have only had this system for what, a year and a half? And only since we have been owned by SWA. Prior to that Airtran reserve system sucked and was worse than my prior regional by far. URP'ing, 10 days off, they could change your reserve periods, put you into rest in the middle of the day to fly standups, reserve in other bases, fly it and grieve it, just to name a few of the stellar parts of the contract. Plus we have twice as many people on reserve. I like how we have amnesia to the contract we were operating under at date of purchase.

Secret Squirrel nailed. it. PCL continues to try and agrue that the work rules were better...they weren't. Hopefully he'll actually leave and will never see what a great place SW is. Those guys I've meet that have transistioned so far have been awesome. I get interesting responses from the guys on the JS when I mention his name. They finally filled me in on the recall.

 

[RLAblows]

We have only had this system for what, a year and a half? And only since we have been owned by SWA. Prior to that Airtran reserve system sucked and was worse than my prior regional by far. URP'ing, 10 days off, they could change your reserve periods, put you into rest in the middle of the day to fly standups, reserve in other bases, fly it and grieve it, just to name a few of the stellar parts of the contract. Plus we have twice as many people on reserve. I like how we have amnesia to the contract we were operating under at date of purchase.

Yikes! Flashbacks........ as a side note to this "bang our head against a brick wall," debate. Remember that two of the three scheduling masterminds behind this are now entrenched in Dallas in the same capacity.

 

[fam62c]

With a real reserve system, it's not really a tether. I know this is a difficult concept for the rented mules to understand, so try to keep up. When you have a reserve bucket system with full transparency, you know exactly where you are in the list to get called at any given moment. You can pull up the list, see that you're number twelve to get called with nothing in open time, and know that you've got the day off and can go do what you want. Hardly a tether. Does it still keep you in Atlanta if you're a commuter? Sure. But that's why an airline with a major airline reserve system also has long-call reserve, rather than having the regional airline reserve system that you have. Our long-call guys don't waste time sitting around Atlanta away from home, and they still get the same days off or more than the SWA reserves.

There's nothing wrong with looking at the facts objectively and admitting that your reserve work rules absolutely suck. In fact, it's the only way that it will ever get fixed. But I suspect that you're the type who doesn't give a flying f--- about the junior guys on reserve, and wouldn't even consider giving up a five cent pay raise to make their lives better.

What you see as working like rented mules others see as an efficient reserve system. At SW reserve is essentially a build-up line where you can fly a lot and make decent money, still with a decent number of days off. At AT, unlike SW, you have a huge percentage of your pilots on reserve which is why better reserve rules are more important. The AT reserve rules are better I will give you that but I would rather have 12% of the pilots on reserve and sub-par rules then 25% of the list on reserve with better rules. The biggest problem with reserve at SW now is that it takes so long to get off of it for the guys at the bottom because the company is not growing. I hope once this integration gets done and things get back under control that growth returns, this will help everyone. That was supposed to be the purpose of this whole deal.

You like reserve because you almost never fly and the extra money isn't worth it to you to have to work more, I get that. The difference between At and SW is that one uses it's crews very efficiently and the other is tremendously inefficient. Obviously some of this is caused by the transition and shrinkage of AT. You have a good gig at AT and I understand that, SW is not a good place for pilots who don't want to work some hard days to make their money.

I also understand your unhappiness at probably having to start commuting if you transition, that is a major QOL reduction and I wish that didn't have to happen to anybody on either side. I can certainly understand that if you don't need the money the hassle may not be worth it. I hope we see the day where there are more bases and/or the increasing of the size of the more popular bases to get as many people living in a base they like as possible. That may be the biggest QOL factor of all and with a single aircraft type SW has some unique opportunities to create a one-of-a-kind basing system if they choose to do it.

 

[madjack]

PCL,

We're u involved in the ALPA discussions with ATA in 2006? Heard AAI/ALPA offered to host job fair? Not even preferential interviews, way to hook up ur ALPA bros...

 

[dicko]

I might cross a pocket line too. It depends how much money is in that pocket and how much is headed my way.

No need for any sort of commentary on this quote.

 

[redflyer65]

No need for any sort of commentary on this quote.

I was making fun of the guys spelling of picket line with 'pocket' line. Re-read his post.

Grab a cold one Dicko and chill out.

 

[Just thinking]

"Not even preferential interviews, way to hook up ur ALPA bros..."

Which company hired more of the ATA folks? Certainly not the luv machine.

 

[madjack]

And which company integrated the list vs offering to host a "Job Fair"?? I realize that ATA was on the way out but my understanding was that during the the "merger" discussions between ATA and AAI, the offer from AAI/ALPA was "job fair", NOT preferential interviews, not staple, more like "If we buy your company, you MIGHT interview". The AAI/SWA ISL seems generous as compared to the terms AAI/ALPA was dictating to their ALPA brothers at ATA...ATA was an international carrier, flying big equipment and you could argue doing a more demanding pilot job than their counterparts at AAI, but that did not matter when it came down to the ISL...now that AAI is in the role of the acquired carrier, you guys are screaming bloody hell about the deal you got from GK and SWA, when the same pilot group was ready to f-over their ATA bretheren... And we have plenty of former ATA at SWA...We should have bought ATA and ditched the L1011's...now we are stuck with a bunch of FAT pilots who don't want to be here, while we de-hub ATL...

 

[Ty Webb]

And which company integrated the list vs offering to host a "Job Fair"?? I realize that ATA was on the way out but my understanding was that during the the "merger" discussions between ATA and AAI, the offer from AAI/ALPA was "job fair", NOT preferential interviews, not staple, more like "If we buy your company, you MIGHT interview". The AAI/SWA ISL seems generous as compared to the terms AAI/ALPA was dictating to their ALPA brothers at ATA...ATA was an international carrier, flying big equipment and you could argue doing a more demanding pilot job than their counterparts at AAI, but that did not matter when it came down to the ISL...now that AAI is in the role of the acquired carrier, you guys are screaming bloody hell about the deal you got from GK and SWA, when the same pilot group was ready to f-over their ATA bretheren... And we have plenty of former ATA at SWA...We should have bought ATA and ditched the L1011's...now we are stuck with a bunch of FAT pilots who don't want to be here, while we de-hub ATL...

Fact check-

1) ALPA wasn't the union at AAI when our management bid for ATA assets.

2) Our Company didn't buy any part of ATA, yours did. If you ask the ATA guys we hired, AirTran hired more ATA than SWA did, even though we were a quarter of your size and you swallowed their planes and gates.

3) I can tell you that when AirTran management made a bid for Midwest (a more similar scenario to the SWA/AAI deal) the talk on the Line was relative seniority versus date of hire. I never heard even a random Line Swine suggest we should "capture their Captain seats", let alone hear one of our Union Reps say something that belligerent and offensive.

WTF kind of talk is that for a Union official to make toward a group of Pilots that you will be working with for the next 20 years, anyway? You guys need to straighten SWAPA out, unless you agree with the way they have behaving towards your future coworkers. Seriously.

 

[madjack]

I stand corrected on the ALPA representation at AAI at the time of the talks with the ATA pilots, but even though your company ultimately did not buy any part of the ATA outfit, the FACT remains that your group was offering a "Job Fair" to the ATA pilots IF a deal was reached to merge the companies...WHAT KIND OF TALK is that to another pilot group during merger talks...not even an interview or a job?

The point is that now that your company has been acquired, and the shoe is on the other foot so to speak, you guys (on here at least) are all up in arms with SWA, SWAPA and I guess Steve Chase, who isn't even at SWAPA, but you were willing to offer a big fat ZERO to the ATA guys...please explain...I can't wait...

 

[redflyer65]

3) I can tell you that when AirTran management made a bid for Midwest (a more similar scenario to the SWA/AAI deal)

I don't think so Ty.

 

[Ty Webb]

MJ, someone is feeding you some poor info. We never got to the point in the deal where there were any formal negotiations between the Pilot groups.

Maybe there are some ATA guys on here who could comment? I'd like to hear what they have to say.

 

[Ty Webb]

I don't think so Ty.

Really? You must not know much about what happened.

The similarities are readily apparent, if you only look-

AirTran was larger- proportionally, about the exact same ratio- 3:1

AirTran operated only one aircraft type (717) Midwest had two plane types; 717 and MD80

Midwest was financially less stable than AirTran.

AirTran was interested in MKE in the same way that SWA was interested in ATL

Midwest had long-range aircraft, AirTran did not. At the time, AirTran wanted to go to the West Coast, much in the same way that SWA wants to go International. In fact, AirTran had a deal with Ryan to do West Coast flying, SWA had Volaris.

Differences-

Midwest was the more senior Pilot Group

Midwest had been in business longer

Midwest was not profitable when the offer to buy it was made; AirTran wa profitable when SWA bought it.

So, Red . . . . Let's hear your take on what was so different?

And why it is acceptable to have Union reps making statements about "capturing" (ie. "stealing") Captain seats from AirTran pilots whom you will be working with, and whom they want to be representing?