SWA to speed up Airtran integration.....article

[canyonblue]

I lost my A/C, my seat ,my base, 32% seniority and at least a 20% pay cut.

You could not have lost 32% seniority unless I gained 32% seniority, and I didn't. So if you are one of the idiots out there comparing your relative seniority, cry that somewhere else it's a ridiculous argument.

My anguish is the way we were treated by a company that touts the golden rule and everything else they claim to hold dear.

The golden rule only applies to those who aren't out to fvck the company. Obviously your position was so far from reality, it didn't even come close to meriting a serious consideration. SLI 1 was the best offer ever, and you followed your own playbook and waited for the even better SLI 2, and it never materialized, so instead of blaming your own people it's somehow SWA fault.

So threatening people with their job is within the realm of the golden rule?

Obviously threatening SWA isn't, you may have learned a valuable lesson.

Now they are changing a major factor that was instrumental in how we did our transition bid. Then expect us to say oh well.

Tell that to the bottom Southwest guys who got their type, waited in the pool and found out later that 1600 would now be on top of them. This isn't a bump in the road for them, their future career picture got bleaker.

 

[dicko]

You could not have lost 32% seniority unless I gained 32% seniority, and I didn't.

Not a big fan of mathematics ?


The golden rule only applies to those who aren't out to fvck the company.

I think your last line says it all.

A pilot group fighting for what they believe to be fair, isnt trying to "fvck the company". I think what you meant was; "only applies to those not trying to keep my Airtran Captain seat from my oily clenching fingers".

Child.

 

[717capt]

Go ahead and post the actual message I sent you. You have my permission.

Can I instead post the thread of all the responses you got on the AirTran alpa forum. No I can't do that cause that's against rules. Think about it man. All you did was post a link to Delta's financial results and immediately people started bashing you. Unreal. How's it feel to be the most hated man at AirTran? Get the bi-polar thing checked man. I suspect that's what the issue is.

 

[FlyinGuy]

Dicko, if it makes you feel any better SWAPA did not get what their pilot group thought was fair either. So I guess SWA forgot that golden rule thingy when they dealt with us as well.

 

[flynvixen]

Good news? Maybe for some, General, but not for all. A lot of us will see our QOL decimated when we transition over. We're trying to hold out as long as possible. As far as I'm concerned, Gary can take his sweet old time.

Please take as much time as possible non of us RSW pilots are looking forward to meeting, or flying with you malcontents......

BTW I hear Delta is hiring............please trannies get with the program and get some paper out to them ASAP, they will embrace your ALPA work ethic rot over there........we will not here at SWA

 

[flynvixen]

You could not have lost 32% seniority unless I gained 32% seniority, and I didn't. So if you are one of the idiots out there comparing your relative seniority, cry that somewhere else it's a ridiculous argument.



The golden rule only applies to those who aren't out to fvck the company. Obviously your position was so far from reality, it didn't even come close to meriting a serious consideration. SLI 1 was the best offer ever, and you followed your own playbook and waited for the even better SLI 2, and it never materialized, so instead of blaming your own people it's somehow SWA fault.



Obviously threatening SWA isn't, you may have learned a valuable lesson.



Tell that to the bottom Southwest guys who got their type, waited in the pool and found out later that 1600 would now be on top of them. This isn't a bump in the road for them, their future career picture got bleaker.

I agree......greedy pricks.......good job ALPA

 

[redflyer65]

20% pay cut? Man, I wish AT bought SWA and we could have gotten a 20% raise!!!

Exactly!

 

[SWA/FO]

1 Company to Avoid Completely - AMZN, HLF, JPM, NFLX, LUV - Foolish Blogging Network

If I utilized short selling in my portfolio, one candidate that I would be looking at is Southwest Airlines (NYSE: LUV). Sitting at the bar last night, I met a group of Southwest employees who were expressing their extreme dislike of the company and the way it treats its workers. That, combined with airlines being historically terrible investments, would put Southwest on my list of short candidates. Looking at the chart below, you can see just how bad the economics of the business are. Increasing long-term debt and declining net income are great qualities of a terrible business

This is from a "Trannys hate SWA thread" - its underlined for effect.

This makes me sad.... Makes me think I should have gone to AirTran (I had the choice between SWA and AT) I never really guessed they were sooooooooo happy over there..... So that "stirke vote" was nothing a bluff, right? I'm starting to feel guilty for Gary taking them away from their "happy place".

 

[race#53]

I have a masters, 737 type, 5000 73 hours, and 12 years at AT. Should I feel like a lucky SOB? I lost my A/C, my seat ,my base, 32% seniority and at least a 20% pay cut.

And by the way. My father was at Eastern from the 50s untile the 90s there was a time he thought the same as you do about SWA.

There is proof that your father was screwed by Loenzo but i call BS on your 32% seniority loss. There are 2 top of the SW FO list at my airport that have not upgraded...how is that possible?

 

[humveedriver]

Please take as much time as possible non of us RSW pilots are looking forward to meeting, or flying with you malcontents......

BTW I hear Delta is hiring............please trannies get with the program and get some paper out to them ASAP, they will embrace your ALPA work ethic rot over there........we will not here at SWA

How's it working out over there Captain Work Ethic? Is the company advertising for voluntary leaves? Not much time and half or charters filtering down the seniority list? I don't mind flame bait. But you are just so bad at it. You talk about greed and working hard. But you speak with forked tongue. All you care about is your pay check, and I bet you are going to be the biggest whiner in the crew room when the next contract wipes out your soft time.

 

[slaquer5]

I have a masters, 737 type, 5000 73 hours, and 12 years at AT. Should I feel like a lucky SOB? I lost my A/C, my seat ,my base, 32% seniority and at least a 20% pay cut.

And by the way. My father was at Eastern from the 50s untile the 90s there was a time he thought the same as you do about SWA.

I hope you meant till the late 80s


EAL went on strike March of 89

 

[FIREMAN]

I hope you meant till the late 80s


EAL went on strike March of 89[/QUOT

Retired 4 days before strike. I was thinking about when they shut down.

 

[slaquer5]

I hope you meant till the late 80s


EAL went on strike March of 89[/QUOT

Retired 4 days before strike. I was thinking about when they shut down.

Thanks brother

Tell him hi from another EAL pilot.

I have never meet a nicer group , than the pilots at EAL.

 

[SWA/FO]

Last night while watching the hockey game with the old lady, it dawned on me.
This is what I understand: The AirTran guys are mad at Gary for lying to them or threatening them with their job, and every Tranny lost 32% seniority, their seat, their base, their airplane, their Wives blah blah blah etc….
Little do you guys (PCL and gang) realize, there is a double edged sword here. Because, if Gary was truthful, you know if he had told SWAPA and ALPA what he really wanted to do with your 717s. Then under law there wouldn’t have been any requirement to combine the Pilot group. This would have been a difference of an added 68% of lost seniority or 100% lost in seniority.
Nobody would be crying about lost seniority, they would be crying about a lost job. Other than being bought, Gary did you guys a huge favor by withholding that info. So as you see Gary didn’t tell the truth to us either. Don’t you think SWAPA would have loved to have that info? Staple at best, if anything… maybe a hiring pool. Now the message was delivered by Gary Kelly to your Pilot group because – HE KNEW ALL THE FACTS…. Plus your Group was spoon feeding you essentially what you wanted to hear.
Now you guys have the benefits of working for a carrier that has never furloughed and tells you they plan no furloughs. We are a FAT Pilot group; everybody (minus the top 10%) is making less money and it sucks…. But better times are ahead.

 

[humveedriver]

Last night while watching the hockey game with the old lady, it dawned on me.
This is what I understand: The AirTran guys are mad at Gary for lying to them or threatening them with their job, and every Tranny lost 32% seniority, their seat, their base, their airplane, their Wives blah blah blah etc….
Little do you guys (PCL and gang) realize, there is a double edged sword here. Because, if Gary was truthful, you know if he had told SWAPA and ALPA what he really wanted to do with your 717s. Then under law there wouldn’t have been any requirement to combine the Pilot group. This would have been a difference of an added 68% of lost seniority or 100% lost in seniority.
Nobody would be crying about lost seniority, they would be crying about a lost job. Other than being bought, Gary did you guys a huge favor by withholding that info. So as you see Gary didn’t tell the truth to us either. Don’t you think SWAPA would have loved to have that info? Staple at best, if anything… maybe a hiring pool. Now the message was delivered by Gary Kelly to your Pilot group because – HE KNEW ALL THE FACTS…. Plus your Group was spoon feeding you essentially what you wanted to hear.
Now you guys have the benefits of working for a carrier that has never furloughed and tells you they plan no furloughs. We are a FAT Pilot group; everybody (minus the top 10%) is making less money and it sucks…. But better times are ahead.

It's what he had to say to get approval from the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Antitrust, Competition and Consumer Rights. Of course 6 ticket price increases later, I'm not sure how well the subcommittee did their job. Not disagreeing with you on your point SWA/FO.

 

[humveedriver]

Something else to consider. NWA made sure through the TPG corporation that AirTran did not acquire Midwest. The same can't be said about Delta's reaction to SWA buying AirTran. In fact they seemed to accept SWA's entrance into their fortress almost in stride. 6 months after the deal is inked Delta is acquiring 88 of their former competitors aircraft and business articles are being written about a smaller SWA operation in ATL. Black helicopters? Hardly. Just business as usual amongst the big players.

 

[redflyer65]

It's what he had to say to get approval from the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Antitrust, Competition and Consumer Rights. Of course 6 ticket price increases later, I'm not sure how well the subcommittee did their job. Not disagreeing with you on your point SWA/FO.

I think unless it's a blatant monolopy on some route structure, they pretty much rubber stap it.

I believe Delta said no major changes would happen either. Look how they are decimating Memphis. In the end, it's a business decision.

 

[humveedriver]

I think unless it's a blatant monolopy on some route structure, they pretty much rubber stap it.

I believe Delta said no major changes would happen either. Look how they are decimating Memphis. In the end, it's a business decision.

The rules do seen to have changed after 9/11. Continental/NWA and Usair/United may have been better partners. Now it seems as if consolidation is just expected. I'm not clear how the rule makers can say no, even to low cost carriers, where ticket price is going to be factor (assuming most majors charge about the same). But the issue of job loss was important point discussed at the miluakee hearing.

 

[humveedriver]

Delta built CVG up and now it's a ghost town. So, you can't say looking at that merger that the acquirer reduced capacity in acquired airports alone.I think it's a good discussion though, the landscape is changing.

 

[SWA/FO]

It's what he had to say to get approval from the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Antitrust, Competition and Consumer Rights. Of course 6 ticket price increases later, I'm not sure how well the subcommittee did their job. Not disagreeing with you on your point SWA/FO.

No doubt, he was playing a game. Gave Bob and BOD his word that he would take all employees etc....

But then the AT MEC gave him his chance to consider a plan B. Perfect! Gary is just a CEO trying to run a company and the big bad UNION is trying to ruin it all - scapegoat.

However, Gary lying to the AT Pilot group probably saved a lot of jobs. That and the way the AT Pilot group reacted to his message, got the job done. My guess is plan C would have been ugly for AT guys. Love him or hate him, he got what he wanted, at "others" expense. So if you think about it like that, do you hate the guy or thank him for doing what he did???

 

[humveedriver]

No doubt, he was playing a game. Gave Bob and BOD his word that he would take all employees etc....

But then the AT MEC gave him his chance to consider a plan B. Perfect! Gary is just a CEO trying to run a company and the big bad UNION is trying to ruin it all - scapegoat.

However, Gary lying to the AT Pilot group probably saved a lot of jobs. That and the way the AT Pilot group reacted to his message, got the job done. My guess is plan C would have been ugly for AT guys. Love him or hate him, he got what he wanted, at "others" expense. So if you think about it like that, do you hate the guy or thank him for doing what he did???

I think 86 percent of both pilot groups figured the amount of special attention that was going to be allotted to dealing with pilot integration issues was coming to a close. So I agree plan C was not going to be good for either pilot group. I hope he knows what he is doing and that his plan works. In about 10 years I'll know if I should thank him. I'm along for the ride either way.

 

[climbhappy]

I think 86 percent of both pilot groups figured the amount of special attention that was going to be allotted to dealing with pilot integration issues was coming to a close. So I agree plan C was not going to be good for either pilot group. I hope he knows what he is doing and that his plan works. In about 10 years I'll know if I should thank him. I'm along for the ride either way.

I know there's more to it like QOL, but when you can make 175,000 as a FO after a few years...i'd like to think he'd get a thank you. if I worked there i'd thank him...getting yanked around from base to base just comes with the territory...nothing good ever stays the same in the airline biz anyway..

 

[humveedriver]

I know there's more to it like QOL, but when you can make 175,000 as a FO after a few years...i'd like to think he'd get a thank you. if I worked there i'd thank him...getting yanked around from base to base just comes with the territory...nothing good ever stays the same in the airline biz anyway..

That would counting eggs before they are hatched. Don't know that any of us will be making historical SWA pay. If I worked at Miami Air or a regional/commuter of course I would be happy with the proposition. You see some things sound good in theory and then when reality strikes, its not always what you planned on. But if I apply you idea that nothing good ever stays the same, then I guess I'm screwed.

 

[Full of LUV]

Something else to consider. NWA made sure through the TPG corporation that AirTran did not acquire Midwest. The same can't be said about Delta's reaction to SWA buying AirTran. In fact they seemed to accept SWA's entrance into their fortress almost in stride. 6 months after the deal is inked Delta is acquiring 88 of their former competitors aircraft and business articles are being written about a smaller SWA operation in ATL. Black helicopters? Hardly. Just business as usual amongst the big players.

Different.... Airtran would have been damaging to NWA, where Midwest was reasonably small and expensive. Airtran was already in Delta's parking lot destroying yields to any market that would "compete" on. SWA was viewed as a forgone conclusion in ATL by Delta, taking out Airtran in the process actually was probably BETTER for Delta than having SWA war it out with Airtran in ATL.

 

[Full of LUV]

Last night while watching the hockey game with the old lady, it dawned on me.
This is what I understand: The AirTran guys are mad at Gary for lying to them or threatening them with their job, and every Tranny lost 32% seniority, their seat, their base, their airplane, their Wives blah blah blah etc….
Little do you guys (PCL and gang) realize, there is a double edged sword here. Because, if Gary was truthful, you know if he had told SWAPA and ALPA what he really wanted to do with your 717s. Then under law there wouldn’t have been any requirement to combine the Pilot group. This would have been a difference of an added 68% of lost seniority or 100% lost in seniority.
Nobody would be crying about lost seniority, they would be crying about a lost job. Other than being bought, Gary did you guys a huge favor by withholding that info. So as you see Gary didn’t tell the truth to us either. Don’t you think SWAPA would have loved to have that info? Staple at best, if anything… maybe a hiring pool. Now the message was delivered by Gary Kelly to your Pilot group because – HE KNEW ALL THE FACTS…. Plus your Group was spoon feeding you essentially what you wanted to hear.
Now you guys have the benefits of working for a carrier that has never furloughed and tells you they plan no furloughs. We are a FAT Pilot group; everybody (minus the top 10%) is making less money and it sucks…. But better times are ahead.

Actually a very good point that should give Gary some street cred with AT ALPA group...... but probably won't

 

[humveedriver]

Different.... Airtran would have been damaging to NWA, where Midwest was reasonably small and expensive. Airtran was already in Delta's parking lot destroying yields to any market that would "compete" on. SWA was viewed as a forgone conclusion in ATL by Delta, taking out Airtran in the process actually was probably BETTER for Delta than having SWA war it out with Airtran in ATL.

What made SWA a foregone conclusion in ATL? Their political influence with the city? I think building up BNA stand alone had about an equal chance as SWA taking a shot at ATL and AT.

 

[PCL_128]

SWA/FO, your knowledge of the law leaves much to be desired. In order to avoid the requirement to merge the pilot groups under MB, he would have had to have an acquisition deal with AirTran that included not taking the 717s, which obviously never would have happened, since it wouldn't have made sense to the AirTran shareholders. Once the transaction closed and SWA owned the 717s, he couldn't simply change his mind and decide to not merge operations. That's not how the law is written.

 

[madjack]

Thx perry mason

 

[scoreboardII]

Once the transaction closed and SWA owned the 717s, he couldn't simply change his mind and decide to not merge operations. That's not how the law is written.

But he could have outright divested them (you) with the jets per the law.

My take on this is Gary knew 100% the 717 jets would be going, just not when, and therefore not on paper. The deltoids played him as long as they could for the best deal they could and then it materialized. End of story, no secrets other than a deals not a deal till its on paper.

I'm confident this will bear true in light of whatever legal process develops. An employee cannot dictate nor expect an employer to consult the employee about their management of the airline.

 

[waveflyer]

Ya'll still talking about this?

I suggest counseling