SWA Plans Adding 25 International Flights from FLL

[Dan Roman]

To be more clear.....we all live in glass houses. In the 80' and 90's CO was guilty of THE worst business practices in history of commercial aviation. Period. You sound like an idiot attacking another pilot group. As is almost always the case, when people start pointing fingers it's real easy to spot hypocrisy in the making.
The reality is we are all just pilots who fly airplanes. All of us can be screwed by a few bad choices by a few people in our respective boardrooms. NONE of us are immune. We should be respecting each other as fellow pilots rather than attacking each other using the decisions our respective management teams make as a way of defining ourselves. Bit of a joke when pilots have overblown hubris because of who they fly for or because they think the fact that their airline is successful that makes them better.

 

[Dan Roman]

Sorry I got so long winded but the "my airline can beat up your airline" crap is getting pretty thick on here. If anyone thinks they are more or less respected because of who they fly for they are fools. It's what you do with the money you earn and the days of you have that count. Not crowing about how wonderful you are because you fly for airline XYZ.

 

[tankerhead]

Sorry I got so long winded but the "my airline can beat up your airline" crap is getting pretty thick on here. If anyone thinks they are more or less respected because of who they fly for they are fools. It's what you do with the money you earn and the days of you have that count. Not crowing about how wonderful you are because you fly for airline XYZ.

Lubbock, green slips, city of Houston, pizza party, Herb turds. Whatcha got to say about that?

Good post. Too bad it'll be dismissed by the ones who need to have it framed on their nightstand.

 

[Andy]

It's fine we don't share an opinion Andy. Frankly I wish we weren't sharing the same seniority list either. I don't wish you any ill will, but as you well know United is where careers go to die, and I wish this merger was not. SWA sure as hell wouldn't have pulled this off without a change in the City of Houston's feeling toward our airline.

Bubba appreciates you siding with him. However, don't forget that after giving Denver the finger in the 90's, SWA marched right back in in 2006. After United lost airplanes on 911, and the ATSB snubbed you, and after your contract was abrogated and pensions were stolen. That was the perfect invitation for SWA, cause that's what they do. Sh1tty things happen to a legacy and then they appear. If the opposite were true and our airline was stalking the SWA ruins, Herb k would lash himself to the front door of Congress and bawl and complain to high Heaven.

Flopgut, you remind me of a quote from Lincoln:

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.​

 

[humveedriver]

Sorry I got so long winded but the "my airline can beat up your airline" crap is getting pretty thick on here. If anyone thinks they are more or less respected because of who they fly for they are fools. It's what you do with the money you earn and the days of you have that count. Not crowing about how wonderful you are because you fly for airline XYZ.

Great post Dan. Depending on life/flying experiences some probably figure this out later than others or not at all. I certainly feel like I have had a good run and haven't had any trouble finding the silver linings in an industry that continues to evolve.

 

[slaquer5]

Dan ,

I do have to say.

Every one of your above post are very well written.

I liked them all, so I could no pick which one to quote

 

[SMcC]

To be more clear.....we all live in glass houses. In the 80' and 90's CO was guilty of THE worst business practices in history of commercial aviation. Period. You sound like an idiot attacking another pilot group. As is almost always the case, when people start pointing fingers it's real easy to spot hypocrisy in the making.
The reality is we are all just pilots who fly airplanes. All of us can be screwed by a few bad choices by a few people in our respective boardrooms. NONE of us are immune. We should be respecting each other as fellow pilots rather than attacking each other using the decisions our respective management teams make as a way of defining ourselves. Bit of a joke when pilots have overblown hubris because of who they fly for or because they think the fact that their airline is successful that makes them better.

So very true

 

[dicko]

ETOPS program failure? Wrong. We never did anything close to ETOPS proving runs. Why don't you pull up the Flightaware (or anyother software you'd like) that showed us going that far to get signed off on ETOPS. You can't so you just make it up.........so yes, your whole hypothesis is complete BS.

Ahem ...... Are you telling me that a SWA jet never pushed back for an ETOPS attempt with a Fed in the Jumpseat ? Or did you choose the words "proving run" very carefully ?

I agree that none of this is rocket surgery. If AirTran can do international, anybody can. But, there are going to be some amusing incidents - pilots giving WATRS position reports to Miami center whilst in radar contact, and giving in to the sudden urge to use WATRS airspace; Admittedly, it does look quicker on a ND.

 

[scoreboardII]

No SWA has not done any ETOPs runs, has AT ever had two flights get violated for Class II airspace deviations in recent history? careful how you answer...

 

[tankerhead]

See, Dan?

 

[HowardBorden]

You never got close to do the proving runs, but you started working on etops in 2010.

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2010/12/southwest-airlines-looking-for.html/

You do realize that once you receive ETOPS certification you need to use it to keep the authorization active, right? If you don't have any ETOPS destinations in your route structure you aren't able to use it. As Hawaii plans changed so did the need for ETOPS.

From Gary Kelly:

"The final step with the certification we wouldn't do until we're ready to announce Hawaii service. So there's no more preparation we need to do. Once we decide, then we would have to undertake that and have enough time between the announcement and the certification to make sure we're prepared to launch, but there's no reason to do that until we're ready to go."

 

[Flopgut]

Dan: You say things that sound good, your actions are otherwise [65]. That's the simple truth. Additionally, you have not had to catch the whole SWA act in person. Wait til they find someone who can hold their hand thru etops and they start going to Hawaii. Then tell me how impressed, patient and happy you are as you watch them accumulate political favors you thought weren't possible.

I agree Continental has an awful past. But I think more than any other group, Continental pilots had to eat a mile of sh1t for it. We still do, everyday. As hard as any group of airline employees felt it was to improve their company and their contracts selling against CAL/Lorenzo in the 80s, I think I'd still maybe rather that than sell against an outfit like SWA. Good Lord, they get handed any Texas airport deal they need. They buried Braniff, Transtar and have half buried AirTran. All while whistling zippidy doo da out their a-holes. And, let's all watch closely, because there is going to be more trickery in the route situation with SWA. The way international routes have been awarded for the last 60-70 years isn't going to work for SWA.

 

[tankerhead]

About that refill....

 

[FlyinGuy]

SWA buried Braniff??? Wow, I don't think that is even in the "Book of SWA lore"!!

 

[General Lee]

From Gary Kelly:

"The final step with the certification we wouldn't do until we're ready to announce Hawaii service. So there's no more preparation we need to do. Once we decide, then we would have to undertake that and have enough time between the announcement and the certification to make sure we're prepared to launch, but there's no reason to do that until we're ready to go."

Continued: "and after we get the ETOPS certification, we intend to fly our 737s to the Moon and Pluto, with a tech stop at Uranus....and only RSW's too, sorry trannies.... All aboard! Toot toot!"


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[scoreboardII]

Buried Braniff...

Wiki:

The airline ceased operations on May 12 and 13, 1982 due to both high fuel prices and competition after implementation of the Airline Deregulation Act in December 1978

That and maybe buying concords to fly subsonic across the US.

 

[scoreboardII]

Dan: You say things that sound good, your actions are otherwise [65]. That's the simple truth. Additionally, you have not had to catch the whole SWA act in person. Wait til they find someone who can hold their hand thru etops and they start going to Hawaii. Then tell me how impressed, patient and happy you are as you watch them accumulate political favors you thought weren't possible.

I agree Continental has an awful past. But I think more than any other group, Continental pilots had to eat a mile of sh1t for it. We still do, everyday. As hard as any group of airline employees felt it was to improve their company and their contracts selling against CAL/Lorenzo in the 80s, I think I'd still maybe rather that than sell against an outfit like SWA. Good Lord, they get handed any Texas airport deal they need. They buried Braniff, Transtar and have half buried AirTran. All while whistling zippidy doo da out their a-holes. And, let's all watch closely, because there is going to be more trickery in the route situation with SWA. The way international routes have been awarded for the last 60-70 years isn't going to work for SWA.

Ooooh!! Please share about the trickery!!! Or will it maybe be standard business negotiations where both parties reap a benefit? I guess if you work for UCAL, fair business deals would seem like some mystical enterprise.

 

[HowardBorden]

Ooooh!! Please share about the trickery!!! Or will it maybe be standard business negotiations where both parties reap a benefit? I guess if you work for UCAL, fair business deals would seem like some mystical enterprise.

Come on scoreboard, you know that there is a double secret set of regulations that only apply to Southwest while every other airline in the country must comply with a completely onerous set of rules that were enacted solely to give SWA an advantage.

Did you miss that day of ground school?

 

[Dan Roman]

Buried Braniff...

Wiki:

That and maybe buying concords to fly subsonic across the US.

...and flying empty 747's all over the place, not having a clue how to handle deregulation, they expanded like wild fire with no thought put into the viability of the routes they flew as they thought deregulation wouldn't last and they wanted as many routes already established as possible, even if they didn't make money.
AA did play a lot of dirty tricks on them, never heard SWA being blamed for their demise though.

 

[tankerhead]

AA did play a lot of dirty tricks on them, never heard SWA being blamed for their demise though.

Well, you just did....and it came from a pretty reasonable, reliable, and rational source.

 

[HowardBorden]

Well, you just did....and it came from a pretty reasonable, reliable, and rational source.

Even though I think you're wrong, it would seem in this case it would be hard to argue against the "turnabout is fair play " doctrine.

Considering the fact that Braniff and Texas International complained to the Civil Aeronautics Board that Southwest's operation might violate its intrastate exclusivity. Kelleher pleaded the case before the CAB. Two days before Southwest's scheduled inaugural flight, word was received that the CAB had thrown out the objections of Braniff and Texas International. But almost in the same instant, it was learned that the two carriers had won a restraining order barring Southwest from beginning service. The order was issued by the same Austin judge who issued the original injunction against the TAC decision. The Texas Supreme Court held an emergency session to hear the case, voided the injunction, and forbade the judge from involving himself with Southwest again.

 

[Andy]

SWA buried Braniff??? Wow, I don't think that is even in the "Book of SWA lore"!!

I think AMR's Bob Crandall is turning over in his ... er mansion (he ain't dead yet).

Crandall called up Braniff's CEO Howard Putnam in early 1982 and told Putnam he needed to raise his ticket prices, and AMR would do the same. Putnam recorded the conversation which he turned over to the DOJ. http://www.pricingforprofit.com/pricing-strategy-blog/number-1-no-no-in-pricing.htm

Crandall, in his embarrassment, chose to have AMR request payment for all of the Braniff interline tickets that they had been stockpiling. It was likely a huge hit to Braniff's cash reserves.

 

[waveflyer]

Come on scoreboard, you know that there is a double secret set of regulations that only apply to Southwest while every other airline in the country must comply with a completely onerous set of rules that were enacted solely to give SWA an advantage.

Did you miss that day of ground school?

That day of ground school is only at every OTHER airline's Indoc, not swa's.
At southwest, we don't talk about fight club

 

[dicko]

No SWA has not done any ETOPs runs, has AT ever had two flights get violated for Class II airspace deviations in recent history? careful how you answer...

Last question first - I have no idea. Honestly. If true .... at least we're allowed into WATRS airspace. Still electing to go the long way round because it's better ? Or perhaps it saves fuel ? Hmmm ..... fuel. That reminds me of Hawaii. No idea why

Cheers,

Merry Christmas. Hope it's a good one.

 

[tankerhead]

Well, you just did....and it came from a pretty reasonable, reliable, and rational source.

Even though I think you're wrong, it would seem in this case it would be hard to argue against the "turnabout is fair play " doctrine.

.

Agreed. Perhaps my post wasn't dripping with enough sarcasm and derision.

 

[Ty Webb]

Dang, Floppy . . . . you're grasping at seatbelt extenders, dude. . . might be time for a little vacation. :nuts:

 

[SWA Bubba]

Agreed. Perhaps my post wasn't dripping with enough sarcasm and derision.

I thought it dripped sarcasm deliciously. It made me smile.

Bubba

 

[surplus1]

Bubba

P.S. I don't live in Texas.

You sir are a wise man and blessed!

BTW, I like SWA and hope you continue to be successful wherever you go and whereever you choose to do it from. The Deltoids, et al, are just jealous of your success. And, I was just pulling your chain (or trying to).

 

[redflyer65]

Last question first - I have no idea. Honestly. If true .... at least we're allowed into WATRS airspace. Still electing to go the long way round because it's better ? Or perhaps it saves fuel ? Hmmm ..... fuel. That reminds me of Hawaii. No idea why

Cheers,

Merry Christmas. Hope it's a good one.

It's pretty simple Dicko. Can SW go into WATRS airspace right now? Absolutely. We're approved.

The planes we have that are capable are 800's. Those 800's have been found to be waaaaay more profitable to keep them on the long transcons. (ie, BWI-SAN, MDW-LAS, etc) It far outweighs the marginal fuel cost to send a 700 on BWI-SJU non-WATRS. If we outfitted some 700's with rafts, etc then maybe that would change, but for now...that's what they've decided to do.

 

[outerlimits]

I have a question for the SWA pilots


How much ,if any , far international code share are you willing to give Gary Kelly?