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canyonblue said:
I imagine you are a nice person, but when you get on these SWA threads with some of the anger you exhibit, it obviously has some Freudian overtones. You might not see it, but even some alcoholics don't know they have a problem until someone tells them.
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Thanks for believing that I am nice. Oh, I know I have issues believe me.....don't we all have some sort of issue?

But the same thing could be said about the guys/gals at SWA that freak out when you say anything negative about SWA. (check out post 239.....the guy doesn't even say anything bad about SWA but has to preface it with "this is not SWA bashing"). I mean, I lost 2 friends because of the SWA koolaid for Christ's sake.
 
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I mean, I lost 2 friends because of the SWA koolaid for Christ's sake
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.

You lost two friends, cus you're an a$$. Don't be disrespecting SWA. Nobody makes fun of Brown. What can Brown do for you?
 
capt. megadeth said:
LOL!

Yeah, you are right. I am so upset that I didn't win a scholarship at SWA and that I am making over $100K at UPS that I still have my application in at SWA.

:rolleyes: (look....I am blue in the face!) :laugh:
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Just answer one question for me! Did you apply at SW and did you get turned down bu SW. (no flame just curious)
 
capt. megadeth said:
Thanks for believing that I am nice. Oh, I know I have issues believe me.....don't we all have some sort of issue?

But the same thing could be said about the guys/gals at SWA that freak out when you say anything negative about SWA. (check out post 239.....the guy doesn't even say anything bad about SWA but has to preface it with "this is not SWA bashing"). I mean, I lost 2 friends because of the SWA koolaid for Christ's sake.
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It is called passion. people at SW are passionate about their company and job. That is their secret. passionate people. If anyone on this forum can't understand that I can't help you than.
 
SWA/FO said:
.

You lost two friends, cus you're an a$$. Don't be disrespecting SWA. Nobody makes fun of Brown. What can Brown do for you?
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What would you know about the situation? One stabbed me in the back because they love SWA so much (and I hope you are reading this Benedict Arnold) and the other....well, I don't want to get into it about the other one cuz it's none of your business.

I really could care less what you say about UPS.....you can say you hate it, you can say whatever you want. I could give a crap. I will never understand why some of you get your panties in a wad when someone says anything remotely negative about SWA. Nothing wrong with liking where you work....I think it's great to love your job but some of you guys are on the verge of radicalism.
 
bravodude said:
Just answer one question for me! Did you apply at SW and did you get turned down bu SW. (no flame just curious)
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I applied for and interviewed for a SWA 737 type rating scholarship through Women in Aviation and didn't get it. Basically, if you got it, you got put in class right away. It was a blessing in disguise....it would have been hard to leave SWA on 3rd or 4th year pay to go to UPS making $26K. I also really don't want to have the stigma following me around that I "won" a job. I am glad things turned out the way they did.
 
bravodude said:
It is called passion. people at SW are passionate about their company and job. That is their secret. passionate people. If anyone on this forum can't understand that I can't help you than.
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You call it passion....I have other words for it.
 
Heavy Set said:
I flew Tower Air 747s, and I knew what it was like to be away for awhile. From what I hear from my Delta friends is that there are plenty of 3 day European trips on Delta, with many worth over 20 hours. There is a 28 hour 3 day to tokyo from ATL on the 777. Most of the Summer International flights are 3 days, since the flights go to daily instead of 4 or 5 times a week in the slower winter months. So, would you rather do a 3 day to Munich from ATL, see the Haufbrauhaus, and come back with 20 hours, or go DAL-LBB--ABQ--LAS--SJC--PDX the first day, and repeat for the next two? Delta also has the option of some 6 day trips to fill up quicker and allow larger chunks off in the month. My buddies say the flights over there are a first class buffet on the way over (First class meals and a 3 hour break to watch a movie in the rest seat), on the way to Happy Hour. (Eating with the crew and enjoying the sights in Europe). Sounds better than the 1 2 3 rule at SWA. But, you should enjoy that security and great pay check at Southwest while you have it. If it works for you, then great.
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I'd argue that the main appeal to the international flying at DAL, UAL, etc... has more to do with the efficiency of the trips than it does the layovers, airplane size or first class buffets. Everyone agrees that the novelty wears off quickly. Once it's gone, it's all about maximizing your time away by flying the plane when you're at work and getting back to the family. I did four years at a legacy and am coming up on year two at SWA. I wish I had done my homework the first time around and I would encourage our thread starter to do the same. Dig through the financials of each company to make the most informed decision possible.
 
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SWA/FO said:
.

You lost two friends, cus you're an a$$. Don't be disrespecting SWA.
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Oh you mean like you don't disrespect other airlines??

SWA/FO said:
It must be fun flying for a BANKRUPT carrier? Delta sucks and is going nowhere very slowly.

You don't even have a horse in this race.
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Here...I'll even put the link in it for you!

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1276671#post1276671

You really are a jerk! I bet you got beat up a lot as a little kid! My bet, you're probably not much older than a little kid!
I pity the captains that get stuck flying with (insert really cool voice here) THE SWA/FO!

Cheers!

737
 
Did I touch a nerve? The "disrespecting line" was from the dude that claims SWA disrespected him (by not hiring him).

Payback, this time, its for real!!!

Let the beatings continue, I think about 5 more years and maybe we (at Southwest) can call it even.

My bet, you're probably not much older than a little kid!
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yep

I'll re-do that quote: "It must be exciting flying for a carrier soon to emerge from bankruptcy protection on May 1. I feel that Delta will provide an excellent, long, stable, rewarding, international flying career for any young aviator." :cartman:
 
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Over 1/2 way in just 2yrs/5mnths

"Nobody has upgraded at SWA in five years since the last century.
For those hired now, it will be 7+ years. Not bad, I have a friend who's halfway there already, but it's not five. Or six."

Not Quite True...I have been at Southwest 2yrs, 5mnths and I am closer to Captain (21.8% from Upgrade)than I am to the bottom of the Seniority List(23.3% from the bottom). I am on track for a 5 year upgrade...of course that will change hear in a year or so when they change the retirement age.

-Turn&Pull
 
SWA/FO said:
Did I touch a nerve? The "disrespecting line" was from the dude that claims SWA disrespected him (by not hiring him).
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No, what you said was, "Don't be disrespecting SWA!"
And, NO, you didn't touch a nerve....I could care less what you think of the airline I work for. I had once desired to work for SWA as well, but now seeing that they are hiring pricks like you, I'm glad I'm not there!

Payback, this time, its for real!!!
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Payback for what?

Let the beatings continue, I think about 5 more years and maybe we (at Southwest) can call it even.
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Be careful what you wish for, it may just come back to haunt you dude!





I'll re-do that quote: "It must be exciting flying for a carrier soon to emerge from bankruptcy protection on May 1. I feel that Delta will provide an excellent, long, stable, rewarding, international flying career for any young aviator." :cartman:
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I hope you're right!


This message is hidden because 400ADude is on your ignore list.
Let me guess ahole. You're responding to something I wrote. My little stalker is alive and well. What, no get together at the trailer park tonight!
Piss off you loser!

737
 
turn&pull said:
"Nobody has upgraded at SWA in five years since the last century.
For those hired now, it will be 7+ years. Not bad, I have a friend who's halfway there already, but it's not five. Or six."

Not Quite True...I have been at Southwest 2yrs, 5mnths and I am closer to Captain (21.8% from Upgrade)than I am to the bottom of the Seniority List(23.3% from the bottom). I am on track for a 5 year upgrade...of course that will change hear in a year or so when they change the retirement age.

-Turn&Pull
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My friend pulled up the seniority list for me. It is, in fact "quite true". Look at it yourself, the last five year upgrade was hired in the last century.

Sorry dude, you're looking at a 7+ year upgrade. It's weird to me how a non-SWA guy knows more about upgrade than someone who likes the KoolAide.

Look at the seniority list yourself.
 
Actually Radar turn&pull is right. Between the begining of 2002 and the middle of 2004 we only hired about 250 new pilots. Before that we were hiring around 300-350 a year, so once the upgrades hit the date of hire of 2002. Years to upgrade times will drop rapidly and then stabalize at between 5-6 years for the most junior base. This of course doesn't take into account canceled A/C orders or changing the mandatory retirement age.
 
Last guy that finished Captain training was hired in Oct 2000. 6 years 5 months to Lance captain. Probably another 3 or 4 to holding captain.

But like bluesideup said, the 'snake effect' is in play here. The 2 years of very low hiring introduced a 1-2 year 'artificial' delay. What do I mean by artificial? Well, it is real enough for the guys who are upgrading at 7 years versus 5 but for the guys that were hired after the slow down ended, it looks more like 5 1/2 or 6. Granted, still not 5 years.

Anyone in the airline business ought to have a good understanding of the mechanics of upgrade. obviously not everyone does. We upgrade due to 2 factors, growth and retirements. SWA has grown at 8-10% traditionally. Those 2 years after 9/11 were less, thus the longer times to upgrade as of today. As of 2 years from now though, it should be around 6 years (knock on wood).

I loved the statement by the thread starter about how he'd retire as #15-30 at delta but never above 60% at SWA. Talk about confusion. Delta had all those 55+ guys go out early to get the lump sum. So, for the next 5 or 10 years, the 'retirement' side of their upgrade equation is static; only new planes will open up Captain seats.

Now, this can all change if SWA stops buying planes, age 60 goes to 65 (add 1 to 1.5 years for guys at SWA, maybe more for guys at airlines with no aircraft growth), or if Delta starts growing and buying lots of planes. But as it stands today with current forecasts, the thread starter would make captain faster and end up at a somewhat equivalent place on the list eventually at SWA. But change the assumptions, that changes.
 
I'll believe it when I see it...I've been on Flightinfo for a long time and I've been hearing this "five year upgrade" since I came here and it's been untrue the whole time. It's seven years, give or take, and I don't see how it can drop two years as the airline grows in size.

There's nothing wrong with a seven year upgrade, it just makes me crazy that SWA people keep using this wrong figure.

It's like using the old UAL pay rates when talking about how much you're going to make at UAL if you got hired in 2007.

Now let's say age 60 changes, then it's going to be closing in on nine years upgrade at LUV, which is a lot different than five years, isn't it?
 
radarlove said:
It's seven years, give or take, and I don't see how it can drop two years as the airline grows in size.
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I explained it above. It really is a simple equation. The fact that you don't see it is really immaterial. Right now my upgrade is projected at 5 yrs 5 months to lance and 5 years 9 months to captain.

Like I said above, if age 60 changes, add about 1 year to 1.5 years to above numbers. I'm near the start of the post 9/11 slow down hires so there will probably be some behind me that have shorter upgrades.

It isn't 5 years but it shouldn't be 7 either.

I suspect there is no way to convince you till it happens since you don't seem to be mathematically inclined so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I, on the inside with a vested interest in understanding how it works; you, on the outside, refusing to believe the information people tell you.

Although, I think you said your SWA buddies were telling you 7 years. If so, they were probably hired pre 9/11 and are pissed it isn't 5. Well, speaking as someone who spent 2.5 years between interview and getting hired. I would've rather been hired and be where they are at a 7 year upgrade than to have been 2+ years with no job and no money coming in and be looking at a 5.5 or 6 upgrade. It is all a matter of perspective.

Strictly math, as long as a company grows at a constant rate, upgrades will come at a constant rate, assuming constant rate retirements. thus the 5 year upgrade for so long. The 3 percent (guess) versus 8-10 percent for 2 years put a delay in the system for those on property when it happened. I can't explain it simpler than that.
 
I'm not mathematically challenged. For a co-pilot to upgrade, an airline has to roughly double in size. As an airline gets bigger, the doubling takes longer. The math is easy. It sounds like you're on track to take 6 years to upgrade, I still don't understand where your five year argument is coming from.

BTW, LUV has never gone through a 3% growth for two years, you should know your own history.

The days of five year upgrade at LUV ended in the late 1990s due to the size of the airline and it appears nobody working as a pilot noticed it.
 
You got me interested, so I checked on the historical upgrades.
Right up until 9/11, upgrades were at 5 years and 2 or 3 months. So, 5 year upgrades didn't end in the late-nineties but in September of 2001.

Then it went to 6 1/2 to 7 years. Actually, there are guys on the list a number apart that upgraded 3 years apart, presumably QOL decisions along with the glacial growth rate 2001-2003. The 6.5 to 7 is where it is now.

If you look back over my posts, I never said we are at 5 year upgrades or expect them to go back to that. I expect to be 5 1/2 to 6 (age 65 not included).

I guess what gets my goat is your assumption that 7 years is the new norm and it will get worse from there. I see 7 years as a direct result of 9/11 and that it will go back down to 5.5 or so assuming our growth continues as it has 2003-2007.
 
All I have to say is 5,6 & 7 is a lot less then 12 - 15 years at some legacy carriers. Soon yall will be calling me the SWA/CA!!!!
 
I'm not trying to get your goat; in fact it's really my friend's argument, not mine, he's the one that got me going on this. He's now a capt. but he spent more than six years as a co-pilot and would always whine about the captains that kept saying "You're going to upgrade soon! It's only five years!" when he knew that it was closer to seven.

So I kept getting an earful, then I read it here on Flightinfo like it's gospel--the mythical LUV five year upgrade.

You are certainly right about exactly who upgraded when, I don't have access to your seniority list and only saw it that one time on my friend's computer and it was clear that the 1990s were a lot diferent than the 2000s when it came to upgrade.

You contend it's Sept. 11th and I contend that it's more of a function of the sheer size of the airline (which didn't keep growing, even during the ugly times). As I mentioned, as an airline gets bigger, upgrade times take longer because it takes longer to double in size. I suspect you are partially correct as well, of course retirements matter too.

But this is a majors interview board, I think anyone interviewing (like the guy that started this thread) should hear the truth, that upgrade time is closer to seven years than to five, and THEN hear the theories about how it might get better toward the end of the decade.
 
SWA/FO said:
All I have to say is 5,6 & 7 is a lot less then 12 - 15 years at some legacy carriers. Soon yall will be calling me the SWA/CA!!!!
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Ok a perfect chance to find out the real scoop. How long from getting hired to making captain will it take you? I'm guessing not five years.
 
looks like 6 years, 2 months, 14 hours......that should do it.
 
Heavy Set said:
So you'll be the richest non oil man in Lubbock for a short 12 hour layover. Who cares? You're still laying over in LBB. Yippy. 6 legs to go until your Boise layover.
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Why are you so concerned about where SWA has layovers? Is everywhere you go in the Lear is new and exciting? Not bashing either......
 

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