SWA or DAL

[firstthird]

It's seven years, give or take, and I don't see how it can drop two years as the airline grows in size.

I explained it above. It really is a simple equation. The fact that you don't see it is really immaterial. Right now my upgrade is projected at 5 yrs 5 months to lance and 5 years 9 months to captain.

Like I said above, if age 60 changes, add about 1 year to 1.5 years to above numbers. I'm near the start of the post 9/11 slow down hires so there will probably be some behind me that have shorter upgrades.

It isn't 5 years but it shouldn't be 7 either.

I suspect there is no way to convince you till it happens since you don't seem to be mathematically inclined so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I, on the inside with a vested interest in understanding how it works; you, on the outside, refusing to believe the information people tell you.

Although, I think you said your SWA buddies were telling you 7 years. If so, they were probably hired pre 9/11 and are pissed it isn't 5. Well, speaking as someone who spent 2.5 years between interview and getting hired. I would've rather been hired and be where they are at a 7 year upgrade than to have been 2+ years with no job and no money coming in and be looking at a 5.5 or 6 upgrade. It is all a matter of perspective.

Strictly math, as long as a company grows at a constant rate, upgrades will come at a constant rate, assuming constant rate retirements. thus the 5 year upgrade for so long. The 3 percent (guess) versus 8-10 percent for 2 years put a delay in the system for those on property when it happened. I can't explain it simpler than that.

 

[radarlove]

I'm not mathematically challenged. For a co-pilot to upgrade, an airline has to roughly double in size. As an airline gets bigger, the doubling takes longer. The math is easy. It sounds like you're on track to take 6 years to upgrade, I still don't understand where your five year argument is coming from.

BTW, LUV has never gone through a 3% growth for two years, you should know your own history.

The days of five year upgrade at LUV ended in the late 1990s due to the size of the airline and it appears nobody working as a pilot noticed it.

 

[firstthird]

You got me interested, so I checked on the historical upgrades.
Right up until 9/11, upgrades were at 5 years and 2 or 3 months. So, 5 year upgrades didn't end in the late-nineties but in September of 2001.

Then it went to 6 1/2 to 7 years. Actually, there are guys on the list a number apart that upgraded 3 years apart, presumably QOL decisions along with the glacial growth rate 2001-2003. The 6.5 to 7 is where it is now.

If you look back over my posts, I never said we are at 5 year upgrades or expect them to go back to that. I expect to be 5 1/2 to 6 (age 65 not included).

I guess what gets my goat is your assumption that 7 years is the new norm and it will get worse from there. I see 7 years as a direct result of 9/11 and that it will go back down to 5.5 or so assuming our growth continues as it has 2003-2007.

 

[SWA/FO]

All I have to say is 5,6 & 7 is a lot less then 12 - 15 years at some legacy carriers. Soon yall will be calling me the SWA/CA!!!!

 

[radarlove]

I'm not trying to get your goat; in fact it's really my friend's argument, not mine, he's the one that got me going on this. He's now a capt. but he spent more than six years as a co-pilot and would always whine about the captains that kept saying "You're going to upgrade soon! It's only five years!" when he knew that it was closer to seven.

So I kept getting an earful, then I read it here on Flightinfo like it's gospel--the mythical LUV five year upgrade.

You are certainly right about exactly who upgraded when, I don't have access to your seniority list and only saw it that one time on my friend's computer and it was clear that the 1990s were a lot diferent than the 2000s when it came to upgrade.

You contend it's Sept. 11th and I contend that it's more of a function of the sheer size of the airline (which didn't keep growing, even during the ugly times). As I mentioned, as an airline gets bigger, upgrade times take longer because it takes longer to double in size. I suspect you are partially correct as well, of course retirements matter too.

But this is a majors interview board, I think anyone interviewing (like the guy that started this thread) should hear the truth, that upgrade time is closer to seven years than to five, and THEN hear the theories about how it might get better toward the end of the decade.

 

[radarlove]

All I have to say is 5,6 & 7 is a lot less then 12 - 15 years at some legacy carriers. Soon yall will be calling me the SWA/CA!!!!

Ok a perfect chance to find out the real scoop. How long from getting hired to making captain will it take you? I'm guessing not five years.

 

[SWA/FO]

looks like 6 years, 2 months, 14 hours......that should do it.

 

[737 Pylt]

All I have to say is 5,6 & 7 is a lot less then 12 - 15 years at some legacy carriers. Soon yall will be calling me the SWA/CA!!!!

Naah, It will be THE SWA/PRICK!

737

 

[Heavy Set]

looks like 6 years, 2 months, 14 hours......that should do it.

So you'll be the richest non oil man in Lubbock for a short 12 hour layover. Who cares? You're still laying over in LBB. Yippy. 6 legs to go until your Boise layover.

 

[Quimby]

So you'll be the richest non oil man in Lubbock for a short 12 hour layover. Who cares? You're still laying over in LBB. Yippy. 6 legs to go until your Boise layover.

Why are you so concerned about where SWA has layovers? Is everywhere you go in the Lear is new and exciting? Not bashing either......

 

[afhercdriver]

So you'll be the richest non oil man in Lubbock for a short 12 hour layover. Who cares? You're still laying over in LBB. Yippy. 6 legs to go until your Boise layover.

What's wrong with Lubbock? Have you ever been there? I spent a year there in the early '90s and it wasn't too bad.

Now can someone at SWA get me a class date!

Jim

 

[General Lee]

What's wrong with Lubbock? Have you ever been there? I spent a year there in the early '90s and it wasn't too bad.

Now can someone at SWA get me a class date!

Jim

Why haven't you been back there since? I thought so. Don't worry, if you get hired by SWA, you will be back often.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[BVT94]

Why haven't you been back there since? I thought so. Don't worry, if you get hired by SWA, you will be back often.


Bye Bye--General Lee

20 lines out of 508 in MDW have LBB overnights in April. One night a pairing, most pairings only occur once on each line. I would not consider that "often".

 

[General Lee]

20 lines out of 508 in MDW have LBB overnights in April. One night a pairing, most pairings only occur once on each line. I would not consider that "often".

Hey, that is a lot more often then the rest of the Major or legacy pilots.....You can have LBB, and enjoy it. Texas tech is there, right? Sweet!

My point is that SWA flying and layovers do not appeal to everyone. Some may enjoy seeing the world when they have to be away for 3 or 4 days. With Southwest though, you do get to see a lot of the USA, every trip. Good for you guys. Everyone has a choice, and some may want the SWA lifestyle and pay. If so, great. Not everyone does, though.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[mach zero]

Hey, that is a lot more often then the rest of the Major or legacy pilots.....You can have LBB, and enjoy it. Texas tech is there, right? Sweet!

My point is that SWA flying and layovers do not appeal to everyone. Some may enjoy seeing the world when they have to be away for 3 or 4 days. With Southwest though, you do get to see a lot of the USA, every trip. Good for you guys. Everyone has a choice, and some may want the SWA lifestyle and pay. If so, great. Not everyone does, though.


Bye Bye--General Lee

And you have to realize that going to work for a bankrupt airline and risking furlough or worse all for the eventual prospect of international flying does not appeal to everyone either.

 

[afhercdriver]

Why haven't you been back there since? I thought so. Don't worry, if you get hired by SWA, you will be back often.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I was in AF Pilot Training at Reese AFB and I haven't had a reason to go back. Until now!

Jim

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Hey, that is a lot more often then the rest of the Major or legacy pilots.....You can have LBB, and enjoy it. Texas tech is there, right? Sweet!

My point is that SWA flying and layovers do not appeal to everyone. Some may enjoy seeing the world when they have to be away for 3 or 4 days. With Southwest though, you do get to see a lot of the USA, every trip. Good for you guys. Everyone has a choice, and some may want the SWA lifestyle and pay. If so, great. Not everyone does, though.


Bye Bye--General Lee

How long are your international layovers?

 

[FDJ2]

How long are your international layovers?

Most Europe layovers are 24 hours, most South American layovers to EZE, GIG, GRU, SCL are 36 hours. Central America and the Carib. vary.

 

[bravodude]

Hey, that is a lot more often then the rest of the Major or legacy pilots.....You can have LBB, and enjoy it. Texas tech is there, right? Sweet!

My point is that SWA flying and layovers do not appeal to everyone. Some may enjoy seeing the world when they have to be away for 3 or 4 days. With Southwest though, you do get to see a lot of the USA, every trip. Good for you guys. Everyone has a choice, and some may want the SWA lifestyle and pay. If so, great. Not everyone does, though.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I tell what I will take LBB if you take Lagos. oh wait you already do. hold on what- how about those productivity brakes in ATL you do that to. Gimme a break!

 

[General Lee]

And you have to realize that going to work for a bankrupt airline and risking furlough or worse all for the eventual prospect of international flying does not appeal to everyone either.

Wow, aren't you high and mighty? I guess you don't know our future plans? Things will be getting good, and remember, good ole Continental was in BK once or twice, and they are doing well now. We have gotten rid of the terrible management (Leo and the gang), brought our costs down and debt down, and have a plan to make plenty of revenue. If you want to fly the same plane the rest of your life, more than 4-5 legs a day on average, and fly to cities that aren't very fun with fairly short layovers, then do it. That doesn't float my boat, sorry. Your pay is great, but that may not be there in a few years. We had higher pay than you did, with more money in the bank, and look what happened. If Colleen Barret takes over for Gary Kelly you may be sunk.


Bye Bye--General Lee