SWA/FL Codeshare

[scoreboardII]

Everyone, lets make this a GL free holiday season, at least through 12 Jan 2013

do this:

Top of screen go to your User CP

Left side select edit ignore list

start typing General Lee into box for ignore, but guess what, within a few strokes the second one to pop up is GL.

Select OK with GL, the first one is General Iee, whoever that poor guy is...

Then select save changes to the right of the OK box.

Sit back and enjoy FI GL free till 2013.

 

[General Lee]

Your hostility is misplaced, my friend.

ALPA certainly had NOTHING to do with the list in SIA 2. Southwest management came to the table and said "Here's your better list, take it or leave it." Jack and the MC fought for several days to improve the list, and they simply got stonewalled. As did the NC when we showed up to negotiate the T&C's that accompanied the rest of the deal. We got a few small bones thrown our way, but the big ticket items were dictated by SWA management.

SWAPA, by and large, sat back and watched. They chimed in on the T&C's when it involved them and said "If they get something, we want something, too", but other than that, SWAPA didn't have much to say about the staple crowd, either.

FTR, I'm almost in the same boat you are. The difference in SIA 1 for me was a complete staple and SIA 2 there are 200 or so pre-announcement SWA pilots junior to me, all of which have 3 years or so less longevity than I do. That might make a 7-8 month upgrade difference, but not really enough to justify voting Yes.

The reason we took the deal is because we were instructed to by AAI ALPA as they saw the pilot group imploding, starting recalls, and sending letters to SWA management begging for a staple just to keep their jobs. You can't negotiate crap if the rear lines are sending up the white flag.

Long story short, again, you're pointing your anger in the wrong direction. That said, it does no good to be angry at the management team who orchestrated where your seniority fell, because... well... they're management. Being mad at them will do nothing but get you on the "naughty" list. Best thing you can do is find a happy place (which for most of us no longer involves the work side of aviation - lots of happy glider guys and homebuilt people who re-discovered their love for flying that has nothing to do with their job) and let it go.

Trying to start the New Year off fresh and anger-free. That's this year's New Year's resolution. Along with finishing all my boat and car projects... LOL Maybe I'll take the profit and buy myself a share in an airplane. Aviation Access Project - look it up on FB, very cool.

Lear,

This is exactly what I am talking about. First, it's take it or leave it, and then where is SWAPA after that is done to THEN take care of it's FUTURE own? They could have stood up and stated, "We don't like the separate pay for same aircraft deal" (even though the AT guys were going to lose their Captain seats and now 717 seats). It's just divide and conquer, and it kinda seems like a possible "punishment."

Yeah Redflyer and Bubba, good for you guys! It's AWESOME that 1/3 of your total group feels disenfranchised. And you guys can't see this happening? What a crock. I understand how negotiations work, and SLIs are never fun, but after it's all done, still continue to treat them like third class citizens? That is the part I have a big problem with..... Where is SWAPA? They will be the group that eventually represent the AT guys right? Just not RIGHT NOW....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[scoreboardII]

You spend 2 days in Indoc,1 day of systems and the rest of the time shoveling fecal matter out of the unicorn stables in Dallas. Not that bad really. It doesn't stink and weighs almost nothing. After all, it's just a bunch of sparkly dust.

FI post of the month award, well done.

 

[General Lee]

Everyone, lets make this a GL free holiday season, at least through 12 Jan 2013

do this:

Top of screen go to your User CP

Left side select edit ignore list

start typing General Lee into box for ignore, but guess what, within a few strokes the second one to pop up is GL.

Select OK with GL, the first one is General Iee, whoever that poor guy is...

Then select save changes to the right of the OK box.

Sit back and enjoy FI GL free till 2013.

The truth hurts......try....to....black....it out....

Classic.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[scoreboardII]

Your hostility is misplaced, my friend.

ALPA certainly had NOTHING to do with the list in SIA 2. Southwest management came to the table and said "Here's your better list, take it or leave it." Jack and the MC fought for several days to improve the list, and they simply got stonewalled. As did the NC when we showed up to negotiate the T&C's that accompanied the rest of the deal. We got a few small bones thrown our way, but the big ticket items were dictated by SWA management.

SWAPA, by and large, sat back and watched. They chimed in on the T&C's when it involved them and said "If they get something, we want something, too", but other than that, SWAPA didn't have much to say about the staple crowd, either.

FTR, I'm almost in the same boat you are. The difference in SIA 1 for me was a complete staple and SIA 2 there are 200 or so pre-announcement SWA pilots junior to me, all of which have 3 years or so less longevity than I do. That might make a 7-8 month upgrade difference, but not really enough to justify voting Yes.

The reason we took the deal is because we were instructed to by AAI ALPA as they saw the pilot group imploding, starting recalls, and sending letters to SWA management begging for a staple just to keep their jobs. You can't negotiate crap if the rear lines are sending up the white flag.

Long story short, again, you're pointing your anger in the wrong direction. That said, it does no good to be angry at the management team who orchestrated where your seniority fell, because... well... they're management. Being mad at them will do nothing but get you on the "naughty" list. Best thing you can do is find a happy place (which for most of us no longer involves the work side of aviation - lots of happy glider guys and homebuilt people who re-discovered their love for flying that has nothing to do with their job) and let it go.

Trying to start the New Year off fresh and anger-free. That's this year's New Year's resolution. Along with finishing all my boat and car projects... LOL Maybe I'll take the profit and buy myself a share in an airplane. Aviation Access Project - look it up on FB, very cool.

Which brings it right back around, if it was so bad, you should have left it and gone to arbitration. Instead, 80 plus percent voted in favor, a new record vote margin by the way.:beer:

 

[Dan Roman]

You have not addressed my question. Why in SIA1 and 2 were ANY guys stapled? Fodder so others can gain is the only answer I can come up with. And the 400 of us did not even get a simple Thank you.

SAI 1. Was the same... STAPLE the junior guys.
I don't mind sacrificing, if asked, but to just be thrown under the bus. Not cool what is even more insulting is that I still have to pay dues. Didn't I give enough? I got nothing, 0, nada out of EITHER deal. I got no representation from ALPA
I WAS SOLD OUT, and I still have to pay dues. How insulting is that.

Just curious, what do you think ALPA could have done differently? SWA and SWAPA obviously was not your friend, but what could ALPA do to counteract their duplicity?

 

[OldManPilot]

Simple... do not agree to pilot stapling. JUST SAY NO.

But it's just too easy to give up the junior guys. They sold out 20% of the pilot group!

 

[General Lee]

Which brings it right back around, if it was so bad, you should have left it and gone to arbitration. Instead, 80 plus percent voted in favor, a new record vote margin by the way.:beer:

Oh come on! What NEW info did the AT guys get before the 2nd vote? Do you care to guess? I don't think it was "Hi guys, you smell terrific. Hey, please vote Yes on the second vote, and we'll all have cookies...." WRONG. I bet I know why the 2nd vote was at 80%, and you do too. Gimmmmmmeeeee a break..... Your post is now the FI post of 2012, and the most ridiculous. Yeah, everyone was so joyous, they voted 80% in favor....yeah.


Did you once work as campaign manager for Hugo Chavez? Just askin?



Bye Bye----General Lee

 

[scoreboardII]

You have not addressed my question. Why in SIA1 and 2 were ANY guys stapled? Fodder so others can gain is the only answer I can come up with. And the 400 of us did not even get a simple Thank you.

SAI 1. Was the same... STAPLE the junior guys.
I don't mind sacrificing, if asked, but to just be thrown under the bus. Not cool what is even more insulting is that I still have to pay dues. Didn't I give enough? I got nothing, 0, nada out of EITHER deal. I got no representation from ALPA
I WAS SOLD OUT, and I still have to pay dues. How insulting is that.

Go do the math, the whole list was designed for one reason, and passed SWA leadership for one reason, that was: end game retirement position.

The list ensures SWA guys, down to lowest person pre SLI will retire at exactly the same seniority number as Pre SLI. Yes, some win, up wards of 7%, most however, as the list slides to the bottom, end up at exactly where they where pre merger. This was done for one reason, the AT pilots are a younger group, will be around longer, and will move up the list faster as time progresses. Yes, some will not due to their age being above the norm.

I hit the middle, about a 3-4% gain now, but by my retirement date, I end up within .001% of where I started. I think that makes the list pretty damn fair, no matter what ********************head GL says.

 

[scoreboardII]

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[General Lee]

Go do the math, the whole list was designed for one reason, and passed SWA leadership for one reason, that was: end game retirement position.

The list ensures SWA guys, down to lowest person pre SLI will retire at exactly the same seniority number as Pre SLI. Yes, some win, up wards of 7%, most however, as the list slides to the bottom, end up at exactly where they where pre merger. This was done for one reason, the AT pilots are a younger group, will be around longer, and will move up the list faster as time progresses. Yes, some will not due to their age being above the norm.

I hit the middle, about a 3-4% gain now, but by my retirement date, I end up within .001% of where I started. I think that makes the list pretty damn fair, no matter what ********************head GL says.

When you craft the list without a neutral watching, it doesn't always make it FAIR. Hmmmmm. A Neutral has NOTHING to gain, and can look at it from an outside view. But, you disagree..... You, BUBBA, and RED...... don't worry, everyone else can see it.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Lear70]

You have not addressed my question. Why in SIA1 and 2 were ANY guys stapled? Fodder so others can gain is the only answer I can come up with. And the 400 of us did not even get a simple Thank you.

SAI 1. Was the same... STAPLE the junior guys.
I don't mind sacrificing, if asked, but to just be thrown under the bus. Not cool what is even more insulting is that I still have to pay dues. Didn't I give enough? I got nothing, 0, nada out of EITHER deal. I got no representation from ALPA
I WAS SOLD OUT, and I still have to pay dues. How insulting is that.

Again, you're asking the wrong people.

Ask Southwest management, not your union. Southwest management created the list and refused to budge off it. First time in the history of aviation that a management team has done the work of one of the unions during an Allegheny-Mohawk seniority integration.

You weren't sold out by ALPA, unless you were advocating that we turn it down and take our chances with arbitration and the threat of non-integration. A position that was NOT supported by the pilot group at large after the GK letter post-SIA 1 vote.

IS that what you are saying here? You wanted us to take it to arbitration? Because that was the ONLY way you were going to get better seniority. Why? Not because of ALPA, but because of SWA management.

So would you have asked us to turn down SIA 2? Is that what you wanted?

 

[Lear70]

Go do the math, the whole list was designed for one reason, and passed SWA leadership for one reason, that was: end game retirement position.

The list ensures SWA guys, down to lowest person pre SLI will retire at exactly the same seniority number as Pre SLI. Yes, some win, up wards of 7%, most however, as the list slides to the bottom, end up at exactly where they where pre merger. This was done for one reason, the AT pilots are a younger group, will be around longer, and will move up the list faster as time progresses. Yes, some will not due to their age being above the norm.

I hit the middle, about a 3-4% gain now, but by my retirement date, I end up within .001% of where I started. I think that makes the list pretty damn fair, no matter what ********************head GL says.

Fair for Southwest pilots? I'd say more than fair. No pilot group expects to be EXACTLY where they were pre-merger when the dust settles when integrating two profitable, non-bankrupt carriers. Your non-movement cost AAI pilots 60-70% or more of their seniority from a relative position.

I was going to retire in the top 20% of CAPTAINS at AAI (top 10% of the total list), and that's assuming flat fleet, never buying another airplane except to replace what we have retiring. At SWA I won't even break the 50% mark of the CA ranks before I retire, assuming a modest 2% yearly growth.

My loss is about average for our senior and mid-level F/O's. Our pilot group isn't THAT much younger than yours. Our CA's are, due to a bunch of them getting hired young in the 1999-2001 era. But our F/O's are about the same age bracket as yours, give or take 1.5 years of age either way.

Your neutral list position in retirement came at our expense, plain and simple. "Fair" for one group and "blatantly unfair" to another group isn't a "fair" OVERALL deal. That's what I think gets missed in all this talk of a "fair" integration.

Again, it is what it is, and I won't be surprised to see at least 15-20% of our F/O's bail for Delta if they can get hired in the next 3 years of hiring. Probably some to CAL and FDX, too. The rest of us who are too old to make that kind of a jump to make the $$$ math work are just stuck with it and will make the best of the situation.

Is it great to work for a company with such stability in a shaky industry? Sure. But I'd have upgraded here by the time I transition to SWA, so I'm going to make the same thing at roughly the same bidding position (reserve somewhere) as an F/O at SWA as I would have as a CA at AAI. I get no additional money for the most part until I upgrade in 14-15 years but then never get into the top of the list to get a great QoL to go with that upgrade.

It's a trade-off, by and large, for a lot of our pilots. Not bitter, just realistic. I'll make the best of it, as will everyone else, and won't blame anyone that I'll fly with... unless I run across Steve Chase and a few other negotiating people who pushed certain agendas during negotiations. Then I'll simply bid/drop/trade around them.

That was TiC for those who missed it.

 

[UALX727]

OldManPilot, I think what they were looking at...just a guess...is who was losing more relative seniority maybe?? From what I know, the senior Airtran pilots took a much greater relative seniority hit than the junior guys. Most captains lost 30-35% relative. Many of the stapled junior guys I've talked with lost much less than that, percentage wise. Most 10-15%. So even though the some junior guys have been here 5 years...they haven't seen much seniority increase on the Airtran side.

I think we've all got scars from the new list. I went down 32% relative from where I was....it will take me minimum 8 years to "re-upgrade" again, and I have been a captain here almost 6 years on the 737. Not saying what ALPA did was right, just giving you another angle.

 

[SWAdude]

The General has a right to say what ever he wants to say on this forum as long as he stays within the rules. Everyone who responds to his "opinions" is equally as responsible to encourage his continued "opinions". It is obviously apparent that he has some kind of issue with SWA and/or AT pilots. Giving him any attention to his "opinions" empowers him to continue with him sharing his "opinions". And he has that right as we all do. If you don't like what he has to say, don't respond! He knows how to touch a nerve and most all of us are staunchly loyal to our companies and feel the need to defend them. Loyalty is one common trait with many pilots I am proud to be a part. I have observed that if you don't respond to his "opinions", he leaves it alone. So those who get into a back and forth with General Lee are equally as guilty of this interesting process. Just leave it alone.

In my time on this, or any other anonymous forum for that matter, I found not one thing would or will change if these forums didn't exist. It basically exists for those that feel the need to be heard without fear of being known. Very few of these posts would be said looking into the eyes of those involved.

After seven airlines I found my family at SWA. I wish the SWA/AT integration could have made everyone happy but that was impossible. I don't know if it could have been any better but I know it could have been much worse. One company bought another company and that complicated the integration process immensely. It is far from a USair/AWA situation but that could have been a possibility because of the differences in longevity. I have no doubt that if the NWA/DAL merger had those same longevity issues their integration would have been littered with disenchanted pilots. General Lee would would be singing a different tune.