SWA/FL Codeshare

[enuffalready]

I really never gave a crap about the Delta/NWA merger and still don't. It would be very strange of me to care about something so remotely removed from me.

Don't feed the biggest troll in forum history guys. You are dealing with a narcissist at psychotic levels. Seriously. 16,509 posts is way off the chart of being normal.

they way it works is most of us ignore genital. then some newbies come on and start debating him... then they learn and ignore him.... then more newbies cycle through. Genital is the perennial senior hitting on the freshmen because they are the only ones who will listen to him.

 

[scoreboardII]

Fair for Southwest pilots? I'd say more than fair. No pilot group expects to be EXACTLY where they were pre-merger when the dust settles when integrating two profitable, non-bankrupt carriers. Your non-movement cost AAI pilots 60-70% or more of their seniority from a relative position.

I was going to retire in the top 20% of CAPTAINS at AAI (top 10% of the total list), and that's assuming flat fleet, never buying another airplane except to replace what we have retiring. At SWA I won't even break the 50% mark of the CA ranks before I retire, assuming a modest 2% yearly growth.

My loss is about average for our senior and mid-level F/O's. Our pilot group isn't THAT much younger than yours. Our CA's are, due to a bunch of them getting hired young in the 1999-2001 era. But our F/O's are about the same age bracket as yours, give or take 1.5 years of age either way.

Your neutral list position in retirement came at our expense, plain and simple. "Fair" for one group and "blatantly unfair" to another group isn't a "fair" OVERALL deal. That's what I think gets missed in all this talk of a "fair" integration.

Again, it is what it is, and I won't be surprised to see at least 15-20% of our F/O's bail for Delta if they can get hired in the next 3 years of hiring. Probably some to CAL and FDX, too. The rest of us who are too old to make that kind of a jump to make the $$$ math work are just stuck with it and will make the best of the situation.

Is it great to work for a company with such stability in a shaky industry? Sure. But I'd have upgraded here by the time I transition to SWA, so I'm going to make the same thing at roughly the same bidding position (reserve somewhere) as an F/O at SWA as I would have as a CA at AAI. I get no additional money for the most part until I upgrade in 14-15 years but then never get into the top of the list to get a great QoL to go with that upgrade.

It's a trade-off, by and large, for a lot of our pilots. Not bitter, just realistic. I'll make the best of it, as will everyone else, and won't blame anyone that I'll fly with... unless I run across Steve Chase and a few other negotiating people who pushed certain agendas during negotiations. Then I'll simply bid/drop/trade around them.

That was TiC for those who missed it.

Lear, hate to be blunt but I didn't say it was fair to AT pilots, just thats what SWA was trying to get out of the deal to quell the obvious thunderstorm brewing on this side during the buy.

If I was younger by ten years I would bail to Delta. Facts on the ground here do not support SWA managing it's entry into international waters with anything but huge codeshare givebacks which decimate the juniority's potential.


The SWA pilot group while older than AT, is still pretty young and will take ten more years to evolve into a stable lagacy career of 15 year upgrades, until then, 20-25 years are the probability times for those now in the 3-10 year range. Additionally, the debacle of failing to capitalize on simple revenue things like bags and codeshare with AT make it obvious this team has not got what it takes to manage the change very well. This new paradigm was backed up by senior training center folks talk of how screwed up the hierarchy process is in changing anything. Finally, this CEO is pushing to return SWA to full fledged LCC status, which means no pay growth and more than likely givebacks on pay this section 6 to the tune I believe of 10-18%.

Those hoping for a bankruptcy to clear out deadwood, think back to 2004 when CEO G Kelly stated "USAirways will be gone by Jan 2005". Look where they are now. The system will not allow for the equipment to sit idle, the financing units will force the companies to remain in business, even if unable to remain a going entity, just so those motors and airframes keep paying their leases. That, and do you think Obama will allow a major airline to fold under his watch? Think GM or Mopar.

I'm in no way saying SWA is in trouble, but they sure are not firing on all 8. And they sure are being outmanuevered by Spirit, Allegient, AK, etc., Just like SWA did to AA and Braniff.

 

[Lear70]

Well-put. I'm hoping that they figure it out and really hit the Int'l expansion hard, thus growing the airline, but you know what they say about hoping in one hand and what you can do with the other...

(I'm sure we'll all have jobs, but I'm with you, 20+ year upgrades for those between 1st year and 8th year longevity are pretty much what we can all count on.)

 

[General Lee]

they way it works is most of us ignore genital. then some newbies come on and start debating him... then they learn and ignore him.... then more newbies cycle through. Genital is the perennial senior hitting on the freshmen because they are the only ones who will listen to him.

Hahahaha! I don't pick on newbies, just the same old guys who still act the same way over the last few years. They act like complete jackholes, and it's fun to pick on them and expose their ignorance. It's easy.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

The General has a right to say what ever he wants to say on this forum as long as he stays within the rules. Everyone who responds to his "opinions" is equally as responsible to encourage his continued "opinions". It is obviously apparent that he has some kind of issue with SWA and/or AT pilots. Giving him any attention to his "opinions" empowers him to continue with him sharing his "opinions". And he has that right as we all do. If you don't like what he has to say, don't respond! He knows how to touch a nerve and most all of us are staunchly loyal to our companies and feel the need to defend them. Loyalty is one common trait with many pilots I am proud to be a part. I have observed that if you don't respond to his "opinions", he leaves it alone. So those who get into a back and forth with General Lee are equally as guilty of this interesting process. Just leave it alone.

In my time on this, or any other anonymous forum for that matter, I found not one thing would or will change if these forums didn't exist. It basically exists for those that feel the need to be heard without fear of being known. Very few of these posts would be said looking into the eyes of those involved.

After seven airlines I found my family at SWA. I wish the SWA/AT integration could have made everyone happy but that was impossible. I don't know if it could have been any better but I know it could have been much worse. One company bought another company and that complicated the integration process immensely. It is far from a USair/AWA situation but that could have been a possibility because of the differences in longevity. I have no doubt that if the NWA/DAL merger had those same longevity issues their integration would have been littered with disenchanted pilots. General Lee would would be singing a different tune.

Insert golf clap here..... I would have had no problem with arbitration in the same situation, primarily because he/she probably would see the same thing most of us would have seen. If a new or younger LCC merges with a legacy, I really don't think the LCC FOs or Captains would be placed in front of most of the legacy pilots, unless there was a plausible reason brought up by the arbitrator, one that people involved in the process might not see. It would have to be explained in the award, and that obviously is something you guys didn't want to take a chance to see. So, admit that the fairest route was avoided, and then work on treating the current AT pilots better. There you go.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Phlintstone]

Finally, this CEO is pushing to return SWA to full fledged LCC status, which means no pay growth and more than likely givebacks on pay this section 6 to the tune I believe of 10-18%.

This is why SWAPA should have fought for equal pay ASAP but SC was too stupid to see this coming. If we all had equal pay, there would be unity among pilots against the cut. As it is now, even if with a pay cut in the next contract, a lot of AT guys will STILL get a raise when going over. I for one do not wish for a pay cut but if it happens, I will take my raise and enjoy the irony of the RSW guys complaining about their lower pay.

Phred

 

[Lear70]

Pay cuts for a consistently-profitable company that's only looking to improve that bottom line with the "synergies" of completely integrated ops?

If the SWAPA BoD puts that out, I expect you would lynch them. The pay is about the only decent thing left to look forward to after all this. :erm:

 

[General Lee]

This is why SWAPA should have fought for equal pay ASAP but SC was too stupid to see this coming. If we all had equal pay, there would be unity among pilots against the cut. As it is now, even if with a pay cut in the next contract, a lot of AT guys will STILL get a raise when going over. I for one do not wish for a pay cut but if it happens, I will take my raise and enjoy the irony of the RSW guys complaining about their lower pay.

Phred

Correct-a-mundo. Now you have two pay scales, and the lower one is more attractive to management. Who can you all thank for that? The answer: SC. He should have fought harder for parity. So, now you have a disgruntled 1/3 of your group, and they are paid less, which may be the future baseline. A pay raise always takes the sting out of a SLI. Even that "interesting" offer from GK would have been more palatable had the pay been equal, even with AT Capts leaving for the right seat. It was the better path not taken.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Pay cuts for a consistently-profitable company that's only looking to improve that bottom line with the "synergies" of completely integrated ops?

If the SWAPA BoD puts that out, I expect you would lynch them. The pay is about the only decent thing left to look forward to after all this. :erm:

Lear, you're forgetting LBB and MAF layovers and 6 leg days.... Just jokin. You know I support you guys.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[scoreboardII]

Today, 19:05 Remove user from ignore list
General Lee This message is hidden because General Lee is on your ignore list.

see how relaxing this is guys

Anyway, Lear has it right, paycuts are not happening until every other labor unit takes theirs, we take ours daily in reduced efficiencies and lower line totals. My pay giveback comment is partly do to this lower line total but mainly from probable loss of some QOL issues and other non direct pay items like month to month overlap (going to a two month bid vice one, reducing cost of overlap to 6 times a year instead of 12), that sort of thing.

GL, I'm already ignoring you so your comments mean nothing.

 

[scoreboardII]

This is why SWAPA should have fought for equal pay ASAP but SC was too stupid to see this coming. If we all had equal pay, there would be unity among pilots against the cut. As it is now, even if with a pay cut in the next contract, a lot of AT guys will STILL get a raise when going over. I for one do not wish for a pay cut but if it happens, I will take my raise and enjoy the irony of the RSW guys complaining about their lower pay.

Phred

I can't fight your fight, nor would I ever entertain SWAPA fighting your fight, sorry. Higher pay to you is less pay to me. We are competitors until closing. Now that we are closed, it's a different story to be sure, but SWAPA asking SWA to raise AT rates is justified how? DFR's would fly from the rafters if SWAPA fights one inch of ALPA issues, sorry.


This disparity in pay evaporates in 24 months and 21 days, so, SWAPA needs not spend one shred of SWAPA goodwill to help AT raise their rates, they have their guys fighting for them.

 

[jonjuan]

Correct-a-mundo. Now you have two pay scales, and the lower one is more attractive to management. Who can you all thank for that? The answer: SC. He should have fought harder for parity. So, now you have a disgruntled 1/3 of your group, and they are paid less, which may be the future baseline. A pay raise always takes the sting out of a SLI. Even that "interesting" offer from GK would have been more palatable had the pay been equal, even with AT Capts leaving for the right seat. It was the better path not taken.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Dood, you're a psychotic freak. Do you not get the hundreds of others here calling you the same? It's time for you to leave the pattern and go back to your touchelmo.com.

 

[ron burgundy]

Thanks for chiming in General--I was waiting with breathless anticipation for your words of wisdom here.

Everyone will get paid the same when the airlines are actually merged, on 1 January 2015, about two years hence. And how management uses its various revenue streams as it changes part of its holdings' business model really has nothing to do with anything in this discussion. Southwest gets a significant revenue source from NFG freight; does that mean they should just give all that revenue straight to the rampers?

And the "other pilots" aren't really to blame here; management is. They made the decision, and neither side had much, if any, say in the matter. Unequivocally, GK is where the buck stops in this case.

Yeah, I can see where SWA/Airtran is JUST like USAir: BK wages on one side, furloughs on the other side, no contract, nothing to look forward to, and 8 years and counting with no end in sight. You're right, General--it's exactly the same. Thank God you're here to point that out.


Bubba

We will all be on the same payscale...yippi! It sounds good if you don't put any thought into it. However, a 12 yr FL Capt. (presently) will have the same payscale as a 12 yr. SWA F/O. 'cause that's what he will be. It's like winning the lottery!!!! Albeit, a winning scratch off ticket...the prize.. a free scratch off ticket. Investment paid off!! You get to start over and hope it works out THIS TIME!

 

[scoreboardII]

It's a two way street Ron.

 

[General Lee]

I can't fight your fight, nor would I ever entertain SWAPA fighting your fight, sorry. Higher pay to you is less pay to me. We are competitors until closing. Now that we are closed, it's a different story to be sure, but SWAPA asking SWA to raise AT rates is justified how? DFR's would fly from the rafters if SWAPA fights one inch of ALPA issues, sorry.


This disparity in pay evaporates in 24 months and 21 days, so, SWAPA needs not spend one shred of SWAPA goodwill to help AT raise their rates, they have their guys fighting for them.

OMG everyone should read this Krap. What a total jackhole. He is a "competitor" until closing.....



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Dood, you're a psychotic freak. Do you not get the hundreds of others here calling you the same? It's time for you to leave the pattern and go back to your touchelmo.com.

Is that you talking or "Uncle Sal" in the bottom bunk? Does he sing to you at night the song "18 and life you got it..."? You know he does. No go back and snuggle.

Btw, most of the people calling me names are Corndogs, who figured out I know the truth. They just don't want to hear it. Now get back to snuggling.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[canyonblue]

Your non-movement cost AAI pilots 60-70% or more of their seniority from a relative position.

I have to say I hate hearing this "relative" example. Especially when almost 15% of the Southwest pilots were hired even before your predecessor started operations. It's funny that my relative seniority didn't move up 60-70%. And even though both were "non bankrupt, profitable carriers", I would argue that the similarities end there.

 

[redflyer65]

General,

Why do you even care? This has been voted on and done for sometime now.

The only reason is that you enjoy trying to stir the Southwest pot. It doesn't matter.....ITS OVER. Can you get that into your thick skull?

I'm glad others are seeing the Genital as the psychotic doosh he is. Thanks for all the private mail guys. I agree completely.

RF

 

[PCL_128]

Private mail talking about the General? Holy &*^%, get a life, people!

 

[redflyer65]

And even though both were "non bankrupt, profitable carriers", I would argue that the similarities end there.

Bingo. Two carriers that happened to fly a 737, the rest of the differences were pretty dramatic. You can't re-write history on how far apart these two companies were.

 

[ATLplt]

Bingo. Two carriers that happened to fly a 737, the rest of the differences were pretty dramatic. You can't re-write history on how far apart these two companies were.

Pretty dramatic indeed. One carrier was growing quickly their near international destinations, opening new domiciles, adding new cities, making sure they were technologically advanced to press into the future, finding ways to generate ancillary income (like every other airline) enabling a price undercut of the competition, and actually utilizing all the automation (increased safety) the airplane came with.

...and then there's Southwest.

You're right. The similarities end with the fact that we both fly 737's, except one company blows part of my profit sharing check out the tailpipe every time they taxi.

 

[scoreboardII]

And we come full circle once again. Third time at least by my count.

 

[Max Powers]

Pretty dramatic indeed. One carrier was growing quickly their near international destinations, opening new domiciles, adding new cities, making sure they were technologically advanced to press into the future, finding ways to generate ancillary income (like every other airline) enabling a price undercut of the competition, and actually utilizing all the automation (increased safety) the airplane came with.

...and then there's Southwest.

You're right. The similarities end with the fact that we both fly 737's, except one company blows part of my profit sharing check out the tailpipe every time they taxi.

That sums up the truth. Too bad folks like scoreboard...ahh never mind not worth my time.

 

[Phlintstone]

I can't fight your fight, nor would I ever entertain SWAPA fighting your fight, sorry. Higher pay to you is less pay to me. We are competitors until closing. Now that we are closed, it's a different story to be sure, but SWAPA asking SWA to raise AT rates is justified how? DFR's would fly from the rafters if SWAPA fights one inch of ALPA issues, sorry.


This disparity in pay evaporates in 24 months and 21 days, so, SWAPA needs not spend one shred of SWAPA goodwill to help AT raise their rates, they have their guys fighting for them.

Dude, you are as clueless as SC. Do you really think AT is a competitor!?

Phred.

 

[Ty Webb]

Bingo. Two carriers that happened to fly a 737, the rest of the differences were pretty dramatic. You can't re-write history on how far apart these two companies were.

Wow, what a pair of mushrooms.

You're either r-e-a-l-l-y senior, or really stupid.

 

[Lear70]

I have to say I hate hearing this "relative" example.

That's because you're not the one who's getting your Quality of Life hammered when you "cross the partition" (when there shouldn't be a "partition", it should have been one group on FAA SOC like nearly every other airline merger out there). You simply aren't looking at it from our perspective, and the truth is that very little changes for you with this deal because your management team went to bat for you.

Especially when almost 15% of the Southwest pilots were hired even before your predecessor started operations.

Wow. A WHOLE 15%? A whole WHOPPING 15%? That's just crazy talk right there...

It's funny that my relative seniority didn't move up 60-70%. And even though both were "non bankrupt, profitable carriers", I would argue that the similarities end there.

Hey, math doesn't lie. I was bidding in the top 200 F/O's of a nearly 900 pool of F/O's (approx). That's roughly the top 20%.

Now I'm in the BOTTOM 20% of F/O's, NEARLY THE BOTTOM 10% bidding at 88%, courtesy of losing 2.5 years of seniority when SWA was hiring 800+ a year. That's nearly a 70% relative loss of bidding power, no matter HOW you slice it, which is why I've been bypassing on our training bids to come over there. Too big of a seniority hit, especially until all the guys junior to me HERE come over there and plug the reserve holes in the West Coast bases. 7 people have come out of MCO from the right seat of the 737, leaving me bidding #1 and I like it.

Twist it any way you want, but your own pilots on here have admitted that being that low on the totem pole, I'm going to be sitting reserve somewhere and I won't be able to manipulate my schedule like you guys talk about until I'm well above the 50% mark, which doesn't happen in the F/O ranks until I'm about 48, and NEVER happens when I upgrade at close to age 55, barring some pretty serious double-digit growth somewhere between now and then. I'm going to retire working weekends and holidays flying 6 legs a day through East Texas. Awesome.

You can be "tired of hearing it" all you want, but the truth doesn't die just because you don't like it. I'm stuck with it, but I haven't brought it up on here lately unless other people (like you) make some comment like the above or say something else erroneous about the integration like one of our own, Old Man Pilot back on page 5. I didn't say squat about it until then.

I will quit mentioning it as long as people simply shut up about it. Again, sorry you don't like hearing the truth that WE ARE GOING TO BE LIVING. The numbers are what the numbers are. Period. The end.

 

[Ty Webb]

Pretty dramatic indeed. One carrier was growing quickly their near international destinations, opening new domiciles, adding new cities, making sure they were technologically advanced to press into the future, finding ways to generate ancillary income (like every other airline) enabling a price undercut of the competition, and actually utilizing all the automation (increased safety) the airplane came with.

...and then there's Southwest.

You're right. The similarities end with the fact that we both fly 737's, except one company blows part of my profit sharing check out the tailpipe every time they taxi.

Don't forget that one carrier's pairings are commutable on both ends, and can be traded with open time up to 24 hours before report time, or simply dropped back to the Company altogether.

I sure hope SWAPA's Scheduling Committee is taking a good, hard look at what AAI has gotten, before it's gone.

 

[orangebellyav8r]

Twist it any way you want, but your own pilots on here have admitted that being that low on the totem pole, I'm going to be sitting reserve somewhere and I won't be able to manipulate my schedule like you guys talk about until I'm well above the 50% mark, which doesn't happen in the F/O ranks until I'm about 48, and NEVER happens when I upgrade at close to age 55, barring some pretty serious double-digit growth somewhere between now and then. I'm going to retire working weekends and holidays flying 6 legs a day through East Texas. Awesome.

SUCKS TO BE YOU.....East Texas ain't that bad. You will fit in quit well, you know what they say...Notin bit queers and steers, so I take it you don't have a tail and horns

 

[redflyer65]

Wow, what a pair of mushrooms.

You're either r-e-a-l-l-y senior, or really stupid.

Hey,

It's all water under the bridge at this point, but I'd be glad to lay out ever difference between Pay and QOL between both carriers if you'd like.

 

[Tripower455]

I can't believe I'm gonna feed this troll, but here goes...

Your union has continued to forget about it's new members.

You obviously weren't around when Delta bought Pan Am's Atlantic routes (you know, the ones that turned Delta from a mostly domestic to international carrier), taking pilots OUT of seniority order. The only guys who could go to Delta were those current and qualified on the 727 or A310. The #1 747 guy on the list was SOL while a 727 FE got to go.

Same pay for same equipment (737) is just basic.

I guess it was too basic for Delta too. The transistioned Pan Am guys didn't get Delta pay for 27 months from the time they became Delta pilots. And they were flying DELTA AIRPLANES, with DELTA UNIFORMS and getting DELTA paychecks..... And they were the lucky ones.

The guys that stayed at Pan Am, who were wholly owned by Delta, didn't fare so well. Wanna talk about getting hosed?

Why wait until 2015? Ridiculous. That is called a JOINT contract? This slow gradual migration over to the Corndog side is also ridiculous. You know that. You don't get paid SWA wages until you go to school? Huh?

Why did the Pan Am guys, who were now Delta pilots, wearing Delta uniforms flying Delta airplanes, have to wait over 2 years AFTER they were Delta pilots to get Delta pay?

While they were certainly happy to have jobs, the Pan Am "Aquired Airmen" don't have much nice to say about how they were treated by Delta or DALPA. And they were roughly 600 PA guys integrated into a 10K (IIRC) pilot group and most of the Capts were retired within 10 years.