SWA/FL Codeshare

[Tripower455]

The AirTran guys had their career expectations rug pulled out from under them and now you want them to just smile and forget it all happened?

Uhh.....OK....

 

[Dan Roman]

Uhh.....OK....

Your comment seems to indicate your lack of perspective for the AirTran pilots situation. Going from a Captain seat in domicle to commuting to a reserve seat somewhere else is a bad deal any way you cut it. It certainly is getting your career expectations rug pulled out from under you.
Your not seeing that would seem to me serve as proof how shallow saying "lets all get along now!" And far apart many of you are.

 

[General Lee]

I'm sorry, but I've got to say it's a little empty hearing the SWA folks singing kumbyya we should all be one happy family now. You wanted to staple them, SWAPA didn't exactly take the high road in this merger and your management was duplicitous to say the least. The AirTran guys had their career expectations rug pulled out from under them and now you want them to just smile and forget it all happened?

Mergers and aquisistions are all about greed. You can't just screw them over and expect everything to be fine. There is and there should be negative consequences for any organization that tries to grow at the expense of someone else.

I agree Dan. A lot if these SWA guys WANT to think everything is and will be great, but bad feelings will linger. Zero respect during the process means a lack of respect for decades.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Lear70]

Just like you will hear the "professional" SWA pilot do the same in return.

And that's a good thing. Once we're out there flying together, we've got to put it out of our head. I'm still working on it, have good days and bad, yesterday was one of those days where I was simply reminded of where my seniority will be when I get there and how long I'll be an F/O, which always puts me in a bad mood. Sorry if I got a little long-winded about it.

Two things Mr Lear.

First, you sure have a way of using the "graphs" and saying how our guys are not harmed, yet you use reality when it comes to the AT side. I could use the "graphs" and show everyone how your pain will be for a few short years, then show how you will be way ahead financially when you retire. But guess what....this is not about graphs.....this is about reality. There will be pain for many of our F/O's for much longer than a "few short years". My guess is that many will feel this pain for at least a decade, but probably longer. As far as the AT bros, there is pain and many of us know that. Most of us sympathize with you. Why, because we have families too and would not want wish that on anyone!!

I appreciate that, and wasn't using graphs so much as just my actual bidding position at the end of the day at both companies, which is really what determines our Quality of Life.

The reality for ME is that I will go from the top 20% of the F/O bidding pile to back on reserve for a couple years, making the same thing there as an F/O on reserve that I would as a Captain at AAI on reserve. The extra money doesn't come until I upgrade 15 years or so from now, a total of 22+ years as an F/O. But that's just the senior F/O's at AAI; the junior F/O's who didn't have an upgrade expectation with our delivery schedule will do MUCH better MUCH sooner and stash away a lot more green by the time they retire, there's certainly no arguing that.

Everyone has their personal grief with this deal, just like you pointed out. Nothing to do but make the best of it.

Second, the deal is the deal. I understand that AT does not like where they are at. Guess what, SWA pilots do not like it either. I am confused about those that think it was SWAPA's job to concede to any agreement that was not the best deal for its pilots. I don't care what the "industry" says. The job of your union is to produce results. Not to help the other side. AT ALPA wanted relative. SWAPA wanted a staple. Guess what....we negotiated somewhere in between. So like it or not, we all move forward.

I didn't say it was SWAPA's job to help us, not in the least. My gripe is, and always will be, that management got in the middle of an A/M merger discussion, colluded with SWAPA to create a list that protected OSW pilots and harmed AAI pilots over even a DoH solution, then made threats to the AAI pilot group in order to circumvent the arbitration avenue guaranteed by McCaskill-Bond and the Process Agreement. They shouldn't have told us in the PA that we could go to arbitration and have the list implemented (6.A) then gone back on their word (GK letter post-SIA 1 vote). That's bad faith bargaining.

I don't blame SWAPA or your pilots for their staple stance even though our pilots wouldn't have done that; when we were looking at purchasing nearly-bankrupt Midwest back in 2007 our pilots weren't trying to staple them, but rather were pushing for a fair integration mostly by Date of Hire with their CA seats protected when we went to talk to their union. I still have our internal message board discussions saved from that time period; makes me proud of our pilot group. Your pilot group is different and had a different take on it. It was your right to do so, and I don't begrudge that.

What I *DO* begrudge is management taking sides, which is the whole POINT of the M/B legislation; to protect against one side feeling their job is at stake if they don't take a harmful deal.

That's not your fault. I would have liked to fight that fight, but our pilots said they didn't have the stomach for it, were imploding, so we took the deal. Now those of us who would have liked to have taken it to arbitration will have to figure out a way to deal with it which isn't your problem; it's ours.

Again, sorry if it still gets to me from time to time. I'm trying to go cold turkey not talking about it anymore as my New Year's resolution, so if I start talking about it again after that, please tell me to STFU. :beer:

 

[General Lee]

Well said Red.

As SWAPA says far to often... This ship has sailed.. It is time to put on our swimsuits, go to the swim up bar, and stop banging our heads on these damn keyboards. No more FAT's or RSW... we are all Southwest now. Drink up!

This board was so much better when all we had to bash on was the private and up in your six.

Happy Wednesday boys and girls.... make it a good one!

Hilarious post! Suuuuuuper! Happy Wednesday! Cheer squad meeting in the showers at 5 o'clock! That's nuts......and so are you.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Tripower455]

Your comment seems to indicate your lack of perspective for the AirTran pilots situation.

And your comments indicate a lack of perspective for the SW pilot situation.

Going from a Captain seat in domicle to commuting to a reserve seat somewhere else is a bad deal any way you cut it.

That would be a bad deal.

It certainly is getting your career expectations rug pulled out from under you.

Yup, so would getting forced out of your domicile this month, with no chance of returning for many years, due solely to this acquisition.

Your not seeing that would seem to me serve as proof how shallow saying "lets all get along now!" And far apart many of you are.

Of course, when you only look at one side of an issue, (that doesn't even involve you), you could see it that way.

 

[scoreboardII]

Dan, what part of "AirTran does not exist anymore"don't you get? When a company is bought, whom is naturally going to have the higher stressor and pain? This is business and each side voted unanimously for what they got, don't forget that, there was no gun to head as oft heard here and misused.

The time for childish behavior is over, it's time to move on and get the team working as one team. Those with giant chips on their shoulders will get over it or quit. Those casual observers who gasp at what happened will as well.

 

[General Lee]

Lear,

You're being too nice. It did appear "one sided" (most managements avoid that), and SWAPA continues to avoid the obvious by keeping your pay seperate. But, as soon as you go over there, they'll be happy to take your money and fight for you, then....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Tripower455]

Lear,

You're being too nice. It did appear management took sides (most managements avoid that), and SWAPA continues to avoid the obvious by keeping your pay seperate.

Like ALPA did for the Pan Am guys.....

But, as soon as you go over there, they'll be happy to take your money and fight for you, then....

Which is MORE than the DALPA guys did for the Pan Am ALPA guys!

 

[General Lee]

And your comments indicate a lack of perspective for the SW pilot situation.




That would be a bad deal.



Yup, so would getting forced out of your domicile this month, with no chance of returning for many years, due solely to this acquisition.




Of course, when you only look at one side of an issue, (that doesn't even involve you), you could see it that way.

Hi Tri. Most airline mergers involve base switching after a SLI. Most of the NWA bases emptied and many of the senior FNWA pilots flew South, while junior DL pilots were bumped North. Even ATL got very senior quickly. It happens. But your group didn't handle the situation well during the process. Embrace that and it will set you free.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Tripower455]

Hi Tri. Most airline mergers involve base switching after a SLI. Most of the NWA bases emptied and many of the senior FNWA pilots flew South, while junior DL pilots were bumped North. Even ATL got very senior quickly. It happens. But your group didn't handle the situation well during the process. Embrace that and it will set you free.



Bye Bye---General Lee

What does that have to do with how the Pan Am guys were treated by DALPA?

 

[General Lee]

Like ALPA did for the Pan Am guys.....



Which is MORE than the DALPA guys did for the Pan Am ALPA guys!

Was there binding arbitration? It was a partial asset sale. Pan Am continued flying as a stand alone afterwards. The Europe flying , the Pan Am Shuttle (727s) plus some A310s were purchased, not the entire airline. Bad example Tri. Ever hear of the dirty 30? A group of very senior 747 pilots (not going to DL) bid Shuttle 727 Capt to make sure they made the cut, but then used that seniority once at DL to immediately bid 767ER Capt at JFK (any AT guys can bid SWA capt when they go over?). They weren't stapled, and it was a partial asset sale as Pan Am still flew after the sale. Nobody had to go if they didn't want to. Bad, bad example Tri.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Tripower455]

Was there binding arbitration? It was a partial asset sale. Pan Am continued flying as a stand alone afterwards. The Europe flying , the Pan Am Shuttle (727s) plus some A310s were purchased, not the entire airline. Bad example Tri. Ever hear of the dirty 30? A group of very senior 747 pilots (not going to DL) bid Shuttle 727 Capt to make sure they made the cut, but then used that seniority once at DL to immediately bid 767ER Capt at JFK (any AT guys can bid SWA capt when they go over?). They weren't stapled, and it was a partial asset sale. Bad, bad example Tri.


Bye Bye---General Lee

I am very aware of how that deal went down.

I was discussing pay parity timeline, that you keep bringing up.

Former Pan Am pilots, wearing Delta uniforms, flying Delta equipment did not get Delta pay parity for 27 months.

 

[Lear70]

How is that a blatent falsehood? Your group was offered ALL of your capt seats, and pay parity, starting day one, or close to it... I forget the exact date, since I've ram dumped that ridiculous deal from my mind. Your MEC turned that down and never even let it get to a vote.

Ah, I gotcha. You were referring to SIA 1. Sounded like from your post that you were talking about us giving up all that from the beginning of talks for SIA 2 and we didn't.

That doesn't mean that many weren't harmed for a long time, if not permanently. Our -3/+1 monthly vacancy model is killing the MCO guys with the acquisition (it was bad enough before), and they aren't getting an 80%+ pay raise to help ease the pain. Temporary? We'll see, but being forced to commute for many years, when you otherwise wouldn't have, is harm.

Like I said, they can look to their own union on that one. SWAPA negotiated to capture all the 737 CA seats as part of the deal, knowing that would make our senior 737 CA's F/O's who would be senior to all of your guys and the list would shuffle people from base to base.

Commuting instead of living in base sucks, I would LOVE to live in base, but I still think that's temporary, and those guys can look to your own union on that one, it's certainly not our fault.

My entire point to Ty was that there is plenty of pain on our side of the fence too.

You accuse us of not being able to see your side, yet are obviously blind to our issues (or at least won't acknowledge them).

Oh I acknowledge them, don't get me wrong, I've said plenty of times there's plenty of pain to go around. I just see it temporary for more of the OSW people than not and permanent for us because of our permanent position on the list being so much less that we were here. See my post above, for some of us the pain is measured in DECADES and we NEVER retire at the same percentage of the seniority list which equals quality of life issues FOREVER.

Everyone will feel it (except the guys at the top of the OSW list including former-Morris guys). SWA and AAI alike.

Slightly better "global" seniority for the majority of SW pilots doesn't make up for the rest, especially when you consider that we bought an airline, are dumping 2/3 of the fleet, and keeping all of the employees, many of whom were placed in front of our guys.

And getting accelerated 737 deliveries in place of those, many of which were OUR delivery slots we brought with us to the game. Again, you get better global seniority by retirement at the expense of our pilots living with reduced global seniority for our entire careers. That's not the way a fair merger integration is supposed to work. Fair usually means equal benefit/pain. That's not the case here.

If this was such a windfall for our guys, then why the hell is everyone over here so pissed off about it, and have been since the 9/27 announcement.

Because, quite honestly, you guys had a VERY skewed perception of how A/M mergers work, a perception fostered by SWAPA and Management and that's my point, as shown by:

According to the FI brain trust, we should be dancing in the streets over the windfall we've gotten at the AT folks expense, yet that is not remotely the case.

Because you're not looking at it from the standpoint of what is STANDARD AND CUSTOMARY in the Aviation Industry in the last decade of acquisitions and mergers.

NEVER BEFORE since A/M has a PROFITABLE and GROWING airline being acquired/merged lost ALL of their CA seats and had 1/3 of their pilots stapled. It just doesn't happen.

Because your pilots don't care about history or other airline mergers, you can't see how YOUR MANAGEMENT TEAM PROTECTED YOU. Because of that viewpoint some of your pilots lack the ability to see what the REST of the industry has done and what likely WOULD have happened in arbitration: a DoH list or at the very least a better integration by at least half if not better than the 6.5:1 this worked out to.

Hell, look at PCL/MSA/CLG. Colgan was a BARELY profitable airline 1/4 the size of PCL and/or MSA flying turboprops, not even similar equipment, with dramatically different income expectations of the pilots, yet the arbitration award was a relative seniority hybrid that yielded BETTER than DoH for the much-lesser paid CLG pilots. THIS is what likely would have happened if your management team had just stayed out of it and let it go to arbitration then merged the lists in accordance with 6.A of the Process Agreement.

Until your guys can look at it from that perspective, No, I don't expect you guys to be happy with the outcome and for those who can, they will still wish they had stayed stand-alone and grown organically. That's why your people are unhappy.

FWIW, I've flown with several AT guys in the last few months, and every one of them, particularly the FOs, were very happy to ecstatic about being at SW. Even the 8 year Capt. finally admitted that he made more $$$ at SW as an FO, working less than he ever did on the other side. Flying with the AT guys (so far) is like the old days when I got to fly with a lot of new hires. Great attitudes and an overall "lighter", dare I say, "fun" atmosphere in the cockpit than with my RSW bros of late. That, to me, says it all.......


Oh, and I notice that the troll hasn't attempted to refute my post on Delta's idea of acceptable pay parity timelines.....

LOL - history is history. He wasn't at Delta at the time but your post about those timelines is accurate.

That said, I'm glad guys are having fun over there. It's interesting as I watch the bid awards of who comes over and who stays at AAI and bypasses. A LOT of the people bypassing are people who wanted it to go to Arbitration and are still irritated, so you're getting the people who really want to be there, and that's a good thing.

Some of us bypass for other reasons (my fiance' lives with me and makes 3 times what I do so I want the QoL over the money - we don't "need" it), but by and large, the names I see at the top of the list, especially bypassing CA's I fly with, are still pi$$ed. You're getting the people who are happy to be there right now and I'm glad you guys are enjoying it. :beer:

As time goes by and people get past it, they rest will come over and I'm sure everyone will get along. Some people just take longer to move past what they lost and come to recognize and appreciate what they will gain in contrast, accept it, and find their happy place. Me included.

 

[Tripower455]

Ah, I gotcha. You were referring to SIA 1. Sounded like from your post that you were talking about us giving up all that from the beginning of talks for SIA 2 and we didn't.

No problem.... I figured it was a misunderstanding.

Like I said, they can look to their own union on that one. SWAPA negotiated to capture all the 737 CA seats as part of the deal, knowing that would make our senior 737 CA's F/O's who would be senior to all of your guys and the list would shuffle people from base to base.

I never assigned blame. SWApA has plenty of OSW blood on its hands. It doesn't change the fact that guys that would've been displaced for months are now gonna get displaced for years solely because of the SLI.

Commuting instead of living in base sucks, I would LOVE to live in base, but I still think that's temporary, and those guys can look to your own union on that one, it's certainly not our fault.

Again, I never blamed anyone, but it doesn't change what I said above.

As someone who's been "voluntarily" commuting for over 2 decades, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy (well, maybe the troll )

Oh I acknowledge them, don't get me wrong, I've said plenty of times there's plenty of pain to go around. I just see it temporary for more of the OSW people than not and permanent for us because of our permanent position on the list being so much less that we were here. See my post above, for some of us the pain is measured in DECADES and we NEVER retire at the same percentage of the seniority list which equals quality of life issues FOREVER.

I am not rehashing point by point....

Everyone will feel it (except the guys at the top of the OSW list including former-Morris guys). SWA and AAI alike.

That's ALL I was trying to say......

And getting accelerated 737 deliveries in place of those, many of which were OUR delivery slots we brought with us to the game. Again, you get better global seniority by retirement at the expense of our pilots living with reduced global seniority for our entire careers. That's not the way a fair merger integration is supposed to work. Fair usually means equal benefit/pain. That's not the case here.

Again, I don't have the energy to debate this again.

Because, quite honestly, you guys had a VERY skewed perception of how A/M mergers work, a perception fostered by SWAPA and Management and that's my point, as shown by:


Because you're not looking at it from the standpoint of what is STANDARD AND CUSTOMARY in the Aviation Industry in the last decade of acquisitions and mergers.

NEVER BEFORE since A/M has a PROFITABLE and GROWING airline being acquired/merged lost ALL of their CA seats and had 1/3 of their pilots stapled. It just doesn't happen.

Because your pilots don't care about history or other airline mergers, you can't see how YOUR MANAGEMENT TEAM PROTECTED YOU. Because of that viewpoint some of your pilots lack the ability to see what the REST of the industry has done and what likely WOULD have happened in arbitration: a DoH list or at the very least a better integration by at least half if not better than the 6.5:1 this worked out to.

Hell, look at PCL/MSA/CLG. Colgan was a BARELY profitable airline 1/4 the size of PCL and/or MSA flying turboprops, not even similar equipment, with dramatically different income expectations of the pilots, yet the arbitration award was a relative seniority hybrid that yielded BETTER than DoH for the much-lesser paid CLG pilots. THIS is what likely would have happened if your management team had just stayed out of it and let it go to arbitration then merged the lists in accordance with 6.A of the Process Agreement.

Until your guys can look at it from that perspective, No, I don't expect you guys to be happy with the outcome and for those who can, they will still wish they had stayed stand-alone and grown organically. That's why your people are unhappy.

See above.....

LOL - history is history. He wasn't at Delta at the time but your post about those timelines is accurate.

So, in 22 years, this SLI will be acceptable?

That said, I'm glad guys are having fun over there. It's interesting as I watch the bid awards of who comes over and who stays at AAI and bypasses. A LOT of the people bypassing are people who wanted it to go to Arbitration and are still irritated, so you're getting the people who really want to be there, and that's a good thing.

Funny how some will cut off their nose to spite their face.

Some of us bypass for other reasons (my fiance' lives with me and makes 3 times what I do so I want the QoL over the money - we don't "need" it), but by and large, the names I see at the top of the list, especially bypassing CA's I fly with, are still pi$$ed. You're getting the people who are happy to be there right now and I'm glad you guys are enjoying it. :beer:

I believe that the AT folks I've flown with are sincerely happy here. I've been in the business long enough to tell.

As time goes by and people get past it, they rest will come over and I'm sure everyone will get along. Some people just take longer to move past what they lost and come to recognize and appreciate what they will gain in contrast, accept it, and find their happy place. Me included.

I agree..... I am definitely over the entire thing, but I am also fortunate enough to have not been severely impacted by it, so who am I to talk.

Having a bunch of scabs put in front of me is a kick in the nuts though.....

 

[Ty Webb]

Our -3/+1 monthly vacancy model is killing the MCO guys with the acquisition (it was bad enough before), and they aren't getting an 80%+ pay raise to help ease the pain.

80% pay raise? :laugh: Name one. Just look on the list, and find me one pilot seniority number, with their corresponding pay rates at both airlines. It ain't gonna happen.

None of our pilots who have transitioned to SWA FO got an 80% pay raise; half of them, the CA half, got a pay cut. I would bet that nearly all of our Pilots who got MCO would be in this category.

The former AAI FO's who have transitioned have been getting OAK or LAS to start, then slowly making their way east. . . . and those guys got a pay raise, but it was more like 40% . . . and they were very close to upgrade at AAI, which would have made the pay raise moot to begin with.

 

[Tripower455]

None of our pilots who have transitioned to SWA FO got an 80% pay raise; half of them, the CA half, got a pay cut. I would bet that nearly all of our Pilots who got MCO would fbe in this category.

Not according to the 8 year FAT Capt. I flew with. He told me he made more $$$ here as an FO than he ever made there as a Capt., and he wasn't busting his butt either. He must've been lying to me.

The FO's who have transitioned have been getting OAK or LAS to start, then slowly making their way east. . . . and those guys got a pay raise, but it was more like 40% . . . and they were very close to upgrade at AAI, which would have made the pay raise coming anyway.

Well, the FAT FO I flew with out of MCO must've been lying too.

 

[Ty Webb]

Not according to the 8 year FAT Capt. I flew with. He told me he made more $$$ here as an FO than he ever made there as a Capt. He must've been lying to me.

What 8 year CA transitioned to SWA? The most junior CA I can see with an award is a October 2002 hire, with a January SWA class. That means he is leaving $162. an hour to go to your FO pay. Not a gain.

[Well, the FAT FO I flew with out of MCO must've been lying too.

I'm sure the former FO is making more, but $40K/yr isn't 80%, it's more like 40%.

Where is the base list? I'd like to see how many of our FO's were awarded MCO.

 

[General Lee]

I am very aware of how that deal went down.

I was discussing pay parity timeline, that you keep bringing up.

Former Pan Am pilots, wearing Delta uniforms, flying Delta equipment did not get Delta pay parity for 27 months.

So, is that what SWAPA used as an example ON HOW TO DO THIS? They used the OLD DL-Pan Am technique? They thought, hmmm, how can we do this? Wait, I got it, let's mirror it after something that happens 23 years ago.......yeah, that will make it right.....


Gimmee a break. So, how did those Dirty 30 ex 747 Captains go back to 767 Capt so quickly? That's not allowed with you guys.

I gotta question for you Tri. How did the Pan Am guys do it with the National Airlines merger? Answer: WHO CARES? YOU DO. Make it right TODAY...... Keep living in the past, and people today will NEVER FORGET. You guys use out dated excuses. It doesn't make it right TODAY.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Dash Power]

First off, Although my reaction was the equivalent to a firecracker to a grenade, I apologize for anything I may have said offensive in last nights post. It was a weak moment that I let this worthless anonymous forum get the best of me. Again my sincere apologies.

Lear70, I would not want to be in your position. I would much rather be in mine. The SWAPA membership is unaware of any collusion between SWA and SWAPA. That would have spun the membership through the roof. Loyalty is the only issue SWA pilots may be guilty. And respectfully equal for the AT pilots. Until any agreement it was you vs us. Both sides were concerned of the impossible result of what was considered universally "fair". A very subjective term when you consider all the elements.

I can accept that you will never understand our point of view. If you were on the RSW side your view point would be completely different. I am certain mine would be also if I was on the AT side. We are all only the players. And it is the game that we all have the same feelings about. As the saying goes, hate the game, not the players.

Speaking of the game, I am on my seventh airline. We all know that with that many airlines the game has been not so nice. A couple furloughs, many displacements and fortunately I now work for a company that truly treats its employees very well. We feel like family. Its not perfect, but nothing ever will be. But it is hard to imagine it any better any where else. As much as you believe it untrue, the AT pilots and FAs I have talked to really do like it here. I am old and not easily fooled by fake behavior. It is genuine. I know not all AT employees will like it here. Change can be difficult especially when it is not your choice. But I have no doubt, most will.

No matter how many graphs or words you present on this forum will you be unable to change anyone's mind. Nor we with yours. Nor each others perspective. It is a logistical impossibility. Civility and lack of name calling requires maturity and self respect. I hope all of us can take the high road during this difficult transition.

Merry Christmas.