Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
SWA/FL Codeshare
- Thread starter GIZMONC
- Start date
- Watchers 44
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
Rhianna plans to rent a DC-9 for a special 9 day/9 show tour.
You heard it here first. It will be spectacular news.
And Vanilla Ice bought a ticket on your plane from PBI to Islip to see his Aunt. Good for you guys!
Bye Bye---General Lee
General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
Another diatribe. You guys CAN'T STAND IT when I bring up your sore spot, the AT debacle. What is your opinion Red of the current AT 737 pilots having to WAIT until an arbitrary ground school assigned to them to get SWA FO pay? That is NUTS! Debate the merrits of that please.
The Rihanna post was also posted in most Major Newspapers. Seems like many people were interested in it, and a lot of FI members said they enjoyed reading about it. Only the Corndogs disagreed, because they don't see many Stars on their planes, well, unless you count kicking off Kevin Smith in OAK even though he supposedly fit between the two arm rests... Good PR move there. Hillarious. Debate that.
And I still correspond with OYS, he just didn't enjoy the banter as much as I do. He is planning on bidding the 767ER out of JFK and going to places you will never fly to yourself. Debate that. You just can't Red, you can't. I am correct on all counts. Go for it. And you can have LBB, MAF, AMA and HRL. Enjoy!
Bye Bye---General Lee
Last edited:
Dude. Seriously.
Twice I've actually addressed your repetitive drivel on this subject (AirTran pay deal) in this thread, but you seem to keep conveniently ignoring it, because it invalidates your so-called "argument." Go back and read what I wrote. Do it now; go ahead, I'll wait....
You keep saying that you like to present valid arguments on this thread, but that's crap. You just ignore anything that repudiates (or even explains) your position, and then just repeat your assertion ad nauseam. It's the FI equivalent of a four year-old repeating over and over, "I know you are, but what am I?"
Give it a rest already. Or at the very least, make up some new material.
Bubba
slaquer5
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2005
- Posts
- 1,282
Lear70
JAFFO
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2003
- Posts
- 7,487
General, it's not waiting until ground school to get the pay, although that is the trigger point.
Management says it's because we're more efficient on the SWA side which helps offset the pay. I fly an average 6 hour day when I go to work, a SWA pilot only flies, on average .5 more per duty period. That's 7.5 hours more efficient per month flying 15 days a month (although I only fly 12-13 on average).
Does that increase offsett a 30% pay increase? Not sure, since on our side the increased baggage fees help offset the increased in CASM a pay increase would make, but I'd argue they could have done the pay profitably with the additional ancillary revenue our bag fees add. The 7.5 hours more per pilot in block per month means for every 12 pilots they add, they can not hire 1 pilot which saves them nothing in hourly rates, but does same them paying benefits for that pilot. In my mind, that's a savings of 8.4%, not 30%, so I don't follow the argument, but it's water under the bridge at this point.
In any event, I don't blame the SWA PILOTS for this issue, although I believe it was a mistake for their Negotiating Committee not to fight for it for us, as it lets SWA believe a B-scale might be OK in their eyes because, let's face it, that's exactly what this is... a B-scale pilot group flying for Southwest Airlines.
The good news is it has an expiration date. The bad news is:
1. It p*sses the AAI pilots off, although from what we're hearing from our pilots, SWA is taking advantage of 2 full months of Indoctrination to punt the blame fully onto AAI ALPA for not taking the 1st deal, even though it was SWA management's decision not to include it in the 2nd deal, despite repeated attempts for the Merger Committee to get it back, be it in phases on dates, in smaller climbing percentages, etc., and that strategy seems to be working for the majority of our people who transition over. The rest will fall in line.
2. It gives AAI pilots the wrong idea about SWAPA pilots since SWAPA didn't fight it on our behalf. For those who are unfamiliar, the pay rates were a SEPARATE issue from the seniority list part of the negotiations, so the Seniority List was already set in stone once we got to arguing about pay rates. SWAPA could have fought for that for the AAI pilots without hurting anything on their side, but they actually fought AGAINST it, wanting to save that money for a raise for the SWA pilots later in Sec 6 negotiations. Reasonable strategy? Possible. But SWAPA will have to live with that fallout later when they have to fight other battles and will NOT have AAI pilot support, which now will account for about 20% of the vote once we're all combined. That's 20% who probably won't even give a crap to vote at all, which is huge. Voter apathy is the #1 reason unions can't get things done, as management knows they can do whatever they want.
3. It gives management the wrong idea, like I said, about a B-scale. It's no surprise that a B-scale for new-hires in the future is something SWA management is really pushing for in negotiations. If SWAPA had fought for equal pay on day one in negotiations, even if they were unsuccessful, it would have sent a much firmer message against B scales.
In the grand scheme of things, there's nothing we can do about it now, but I believe it was a tactical mistake for SWAPA not to fight for equal pay from day 1. Just my .02 cents. In the end, people will do their jobs, but unity is a lot harder to achieve when you are going to work for a company where your future union has demonstrated that they see you as a 2nd class citizen. SWAPA has some serious bridges to build with 20% of their voting group in the future. We'll see if the incoming union president cares more than the previous one leaving office.
However, and I'll say it again, we don't blame individual pilots at SWA. By and large none of them had a direct say in anything that went down. Did they control who got voted into office at SWAPA and, therefore, how things went from that perspective? Yes, but we're not going to be mad at individual pilots; you have no way of knowing who voted for what or who supported what. The problem isn't hostility with our coworkers, the problem is unity for union issues moving forward in a time where management appears less and less friendly towards employee compensation packages due to all the economic factors in play.
We'll all get along, the money part of the equation just makes it harder for the AAI pilots to get there.
Management says it's because we're more efficient on the SWA side which helps offset the pay. I fly an average 6 hour day when I go to work, a SWA pilot only flies, on average .5 more per duty period. That's 7.5 hours more efficient per month flying 15 days a month (although I only fly 12-13 on average).
Does that increase offsett a 30% pay increase? Not sure, since on our side the increased baggage fees help offset the increased in CASM a pay increase would make, but I'd argue they could have done the pay profitably with the additional ancillary revenue our bag fees add. The 7.5 hours more per pilot in block per month means for every 12 pilots they add, they can not hire 1 pilot which saves them nothing in hourly rates, but does same them paying benefits for that pilot. In my mind, that's a savings of 8.4%, not 30%, so I don't follow the argument, but it's water under the bridge at this point.
In any event, I don't blame the SWA PILOTS for this issue, although I believe it was a mistake for their Negotiating Committee not to fight for it for us, as it lets SWA believe a B-scale might be OK in their eyes because, let's face it, that's exactly what this is... a B-scale pilot group flying for Southwest Airlines.
The good news is it has an expiration date. The bad news is:
1. It p*sses the AAI pilots off, although from what we're hearing from our pilots, SWA is taking advantage of 2 full months of Indoctrination to punt the blame fully onto AAI ALPA for not taking the 1st deal, even though it was SWA management's decision not to include it in the 2nd deal, despite repeated attempts for the Merger Committee to get it back, be it in phases on dates, in smaller climbing percentages, etc., and that strategy seems to be working for the majority of our people who transition over. The rest will fall in line.
2. It gives AAI pilots the wrong idea about SWAPA pilots since SWAPA didn't fight it on our behalf. For those who are unfamiliar, the pay rates were a SEPARATE issue from the seniority list part of the negotiations, so the Seniority List was already set in stone once we got to arguing about pay rates. SWAPA could have fought for that for the AAI pilots without hurting anything on their side, but they actually fought AGAINST it, wanting to save that money for a raise for the SWA pilots later in Sec 6 negotiations. Reasonable strategy? Possible. But SWAPA will have to live with that fallout later when they have to fight other battles and will NOT have AAI pilot support, which now will account for about 20% of the vote once we're all combined. That's 20% who probably won't even give a crap to vote at all, which is huge. Voter apathy is the #1 reason unions can't get things done, as management knows they can do whatever they want.
3. It gives management the wrong idea, like I said, about a B-scale. It's no surprise that a B-scale for new-hires in the future is something SWA management is really pushing for in negotiations. If SWAPA had fought for equal pay on day one in negotiations, even if they were unsuccessful, it would have sent a much firmer message against B scales.
In the grand scheme of things, there's nothing we can do about it now, but I believe it was a tactical mistake for SWAPA not to fight for equal pay from day 1. Just my .02 cents. In the end, people will do their jobs, but unity is a lot harder to achieve when you are going to work for a company where your future union has demonstrated that they see you as a 2nd class citizen. SWAPA has some serious bridges to build with 20% of their voting group in the future. We'll see if the incoming union president cares more than the previous one leaving office.
However, and I'll say it again, we don't blame individual pilots at SWA. By and large none of them had a direct say in anything that went down. Did they control who got voted into office at SWAPA and, therefore, how things went from that perspective? Yes, but we're not going to be mad at individual pilots; you have no way of knowing who voted for what or who supported what. The problem isn't hostility with our coworkers, the problem is unity for union issues moving forward in a time where management appears less and less friendly towards employee compensation packages due to all the economic factors in play.
We'll all get along, the money part of the equation just makes it harder for the AAI pilots to get there.
Last edited:
redflyer65
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2004
- Posts
- 4,456
Sore spot? Haha. What are you smoking?
Re-read Bubbas post regarding the intgration, or Lear's lastest above. This has been done and over. Your just pissed it didn't turn into a complete bloodbath like USair. You never gave a rat's ass about the Airtran pilots. Could it have been done differently? Sure. But it's old news. Water under the bridge, even though you like to use it as your latest mantra. For how long? Idiotic.
Do I continue to blather on about the Northwest pilots that got screwed and how you didn't take care of them, or how you treat your regional 'partners' like second class citiziens? No. Because I don't really care. That's your problem, not mine.
In the end...
You don't debate anything. Just keep crying about your set talking points over and over ad nausem. This thread shows that most people could care less about your BS.
Last edited:
ron burgundy
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2006
- Posts
- 403
You spend 2 days in Indoc,1 day of systems and the rest of the time shoveling fecal matter out of the unicorn stables in Dallas. Not that bad really. It doesn't stink and weighs almost nothing. After all, it's just a bunch of sparkly dust.
redflyer65
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2004
- Posts
- 4,456
Wow. That's earth shattering. The only airline that's had yearly profits, year after year after year. Has it gotten tougher? Absolutely. Mostly because all the other carriers have run themselves through bankruptcy to actually START competing. I think our profits will continue year in and year out. You think otherwise?
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
