SWA/FL Codeshare

[General Lee]

General, it's not waiting until ground school to get the pay, although that is the trigger point.

Management says it's because we're more efficient on the SWA side which helps offset the pay. I fly an average 6 hour day when I go to work, a SWA pilot only flies, on average .5 more per duty period. That's 7.5 hours more efficient per month flying 15 days a month (although I only fly 12-13 on average).

Does that increase offsett a 30% pay increase? Not sure, since on our side the increased baggage fees help offset the increased in CASM a pay increase would make, but I'd argue they could have done the pay profitably with the additional ancillary revenue our bag fees add. The 7.5 hours more per pilot in block per month means for every 12 pilots they add, they can not hire 1 pilot which saves them nothing in hourly rates, but does same them paying benefits for that pilot. In my mind, that's a savings of 8.4%, not 30%, so I don't follow the argument, but it's water under the bridge at this point.

In any event, I don't blame the SWA PILOTS for this issue, although I believe it was a mistake for their Negotiating Committee not to fight for it for us, as it lets SWA believe a B-scale might be OK in their eyes because, let's face it, that's exactly what this is... a B-scale pilot group flying for Southwest Airlines.

The good news is it has an expiration date. The bad news is:

1. It p*sses the AAI pilots off, although from what we're hearing from our pilots, SWA is taking advantage of 2 full months of Indoctrination to punt the blame fully onto AAI ALPA for not taking the 1st deal, even though it was SWA management's decision not to include it in the 2nd deal, despite repeated attempts for the Merger Committee to get it back, be it in phases on dates, in smaller climbing percentages, etc., and that strategy seems to be working for the majority of our people who transition over. The rest will fall in line.

2. It gives AAI pilots the wrong idea about SWAPA pilots since SWAPA didn't fight it on our behalf. For those who are unfamiliar, the pay rates were a SEPARATE issue from the seniority list part of the negotiations, so the Seniority List was already set in stone once we got to arguing about pay rates. SWAPA could have fought for that for the AAI pilots without hurting anything on their side, but they actually fought AGAINST it, wanting to save that money for a raise for the SWA pilots later in Sec 6 negotiations. Reasonable strategy? Possible. But SWAPA will have to live with that fallout later when they have to fight other battles and will NOT have AAI pilot support, which now will account for about 20% of the vote once we're all combined. That's 20% who probably won't even give a crap to vote at all, which is huge. Voter apathy is the #1 reason unions can't get things done, as management knows they can do whatever they want.

3. It gives management the wrong idea, like I said, about a B-scale. It's no surprise that a B-scale for new-hires in the future is something SWA management is really pushing for in negotiations. If SWAPA had fought for equal pay on day one in negotiations, even if they were unsuccessful, it would have sent a much firmer message against B scales.

In the grand scheme of things, there's nothing we can do about it now, but I believe it was a tactical mistake for SWAPA not to fight for equal pay from day 1. Just my .02 cents. In the end, people will do their jobs, but unity is a lot harder to achieve when you are going to work for a company where your future union has demonstrated that they see you as a 2nd class citizen. SWAPA has some serious bridges to build with 20% of their voting group in the future. We'll see if the incoming union president cares more than the previous one leaving office.

However, and I'll say it again, we don't blame individual pilots at SWA. By and large none of them had a direct say in anything that went down. Did they control who got voted into office at SWAPA and, therefore, how things went from that perspective? Yes, but we're not going to be mad at individual pilots; you have no way of knowing who voted for what or who supported what. The problem isn't hostility with our coworkers, the problem is unity for union issues moving forward in a time where management appears less and less friendly towards employee compensation packages due to all the economic factors in play.

We'll all get along, the money part of the equation just makes it harder for the AAI pilots to get there.

Thanks Lear. Maybe Bubba needs to read this post and finally learn that many on your "side" feel they got the "shaft", which it appears like from the outside. Nothing like merging airlines but NOT merging groups in reality for years. That is a great way to feel "the luv."


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Sore spot? Haha. What are you smoking?

Re-read Bubbas post regarding the intgration, or Lear's lastest above. This has been done and over. Your just pissed it didn't turn into a complete bloodbath like USair. You never gave a rat's ass about the Airtran pilots. Could it have been done differently? Sure. But it's old news. Water under the bridge, even though you like to use it as your latest mantra. For how long? Idiotic.

Do I continue to blather on about the Northwest pilots that got screwed and how you didn't take care of them, or how you treat your regional 'partners' like second class citiziens? No. Because I don't really care. That's your problem, not mine.

In the end...

You don't debate anything. Just keep crying about your set talking points over and over ad nausem. This thread shows that most people could care less about your BS.

Keep crying? I am just pointing out the ridiculousness of your deal with the AT pilots. It sure is great that 1/3 of your pilot group is pizzed. Yeah, that's AWESOME Red. Thumbs up! Good for you guys!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[OldManPilot]

The only explanation I would like to hear is; how do you take 20 percent of a pilot group and staple them (most with more than 5 years seniority) and still think that it is ok?
400 AT pilots were totally disregarded in both SL1 and SL2. I am tired of hearing pilots cry the, woe is me, in the cockpit while myself and 399 other pilots were given as sacrifices so that they can have their seniority. SL2 was because ALPA wanted better seniority. The 400 sacrificial lambs saw NOT 1 number of improvement.

Nobody will address this because of what I think is SHAME. Shame on you ALPA and SWAPA for disregarding us as fodder for you gains. This to me was the greatest insult to this entire process.



Rant ended!

 

[Lear70]

The only explanation I would like to hear is; how do you take 20 percent of a pilot group and staple them (most with more than 5 years seniority) and still think that it is ok?
400 AT pilots were totally disregarded in both SL1 and SL2. I am tired of hearing pilots cry the, woe is me, in the cockpit while myself and 399 other pilots were given as sacrifices so that they can have their seniority. SL2 was because ALPA wanted better seniority. The 400 sacrificial lambs saw NOT 1 number of improvement.

Nobody will address this because of what I think is SHAME. Shame on you ALPA and SWAPA for disregarding us as fodder for you gains. This to me was the greatest insult to this entire process.



Rant ended!

Your hostility is misplaced, my friend.

ALPA certainly had NOTHING to do with the list in SIA 2. Southwest management came to the table and said "Here's your better list, take it or leave it." Jack and the MC fought for several days to improve the list, and they simply got stonewalled. As did the NC when we showed up to negotiate the T&C's that accompanied the rest of the deal. We got a few small bones thrown our way, but the big ticket items were dictated by SWA management.

SWAPA, by and large, sat back and watched. They chimed in on the T&C's when it involved them and said "If they get something, we want something, too", but other than that, SWAPA didn't have much to say about the staple crowd, either.

FTR, I'm almost in the same boat you are. The difference in SIA 1 for me was a complete staple and SIA 2 there are 200 or so pre-announcement SWA pilots junior to me, all of which have 3 years or so less longevity than I do. That might make a 7-8 month upgrade difference, but not really enough to justify voting Yes.

The reason we took the deal is because we were instructed to by AAI ALPA as they saw the pilot group imploding, starting recalls, and sending letters to SWA management begging for a staple just to keep their jobs. You can't negotiate crap if the rear lines are sending up the white flag.

Long story short, again, you're pointing your anger in the wrong direction. That said, it does no good to be angry at the management team who orchestrated where your seniority fell, because... well... they're management. Being mad at them will do nothing but get you on the "naughty" list. Best thing you can do is find a happy place (which for most of us no longer involves the work side of aviation - lots of happy glider guys and homebuilt people who re-discovered their love for flying that has nothing to do with their job) and let it go.

Trying to start the New Year off fresh and anger-free. That's this year's New Year's resolution. Along with finishing all my boat and car projects... LOL Maybe I'll take the profit and buy myself a share in an airplane. Aviation Access Project - look it up on FB, very cool.

 

[OldManPilot]

You have not addressed my question. Why in SIA1 and 2 were ANY guys stapled? Fodder so others can gain is the only answer I can come up with. And the 400 of us did not even get a simple Thank you.

SAI 1. Was the same... STAPLE the junior guys.
I don't mind sacrificing, if asked, but to just be thrown under the bus. Not cool what is even more insulting is that I still have to pay dues. Didn't I give enough? I got nothing, 0, nada out of EITHER deal. I got no representation from ALPA
I WAS SOLD OUT, and I still have to pay dues. How insulting is that.

 

[scoreboardII]

Everyone, lets make this a GL free holiday season, at least through 12 Jan 2013

do this:

Top of screen go to your User CP

Left side select edit ignore list

start typing General Lee into box for ignore, but guess what, within a few strokes the second one to pop up is GL.

Select OK with GL, the first one is General Iee, whoever that poor guy is...

Then select save changes to the right of the OK box.

Sit back and enjoy FI GL free till 2013.

 

[General Lee]

Your hostility is misplaced, my friend.

ALPA certainly had NOTHING to do with the list in SIA 2. Southwest management came to the table and said "Here's your better list, take it or leave it." Jack and the MC fought for several days to improve the list, and they simply got stonewalled. As did the NC when we showed up to negotiate the T&C's that accompanied the rest of the deal. We got a few small bones thrown our way, but the big ticket items were dictated by SWA management.

SWAPA, by and large, sat back and watched. They chimed in on the T&C's when it involved them and said "If they get something, we want something, too", but other than that, SWAPA didn't have much to say about the staple crowd, either.

FTR, I'm almost in the same boat you are. The difference in SIA 1 for me was a complete staple and SIA 2 there are 200 or so pre-announcement SWA pilots junior to me, all of which have 3 years or so less longevity than I do. That might make a 7-8 month upgrade difference, but not really enough to justify voting Yes.

The reason we took the deal is because we were instructed to by AAI ALPA as they saw the pilot group imploding, starting recalls, and sending letters to SWA management begging for a staple just to keep their jobs. You can't negotiate crap if the rear lines are sending up the white flag.

Long story short, again, you're pointing your anger in the wrong direction. That said, it does no good to be angry at the management team who orchestrated where your seniority fell, because... well... they're management. Being mad at them will do nothing but get you on the "naughty" list. Best thing you can do is find a happy place (which for most of us no longer involves the work side of aviation - lots of happy glider guys and homebuilt people who re-discovered their love for flying that has nothing to do with their job) and let it go.

Trying to start the New Year off fresh and anger-free. That's this year's New Year's resolution. Along with finishing all my boat and car projects... LOL Maybe I'll take the profit and buy myself a share in an airplane. Aviation Access Project - look it up on FB, very cool.

Lear,

This is exactly what I am talking about. First, it's take it or leave it, and then where is SWAPA after that is done to THEN take care of it's FUTURE own? They could have stood up and stated, "We don't like the separate pay for same aircraft deal" (even though the AT guys were going to lose their Captain seats and now 717 seats). It's just divide and conquer, and it kinda seems like a possible "punishment."

Yeah Redflyer and Bubba, good for you guys! It's AWESOME that 1/3 of your total group feels disenfranchised. And you guys can't see this happening? What a crock. I understand how negotiations work, and SLIs are never fun, but after it's all done, still continue to treat them like third class citizens? That is the part I have a big problem with..... Where is SWAPA? They will be the group that eventually represent the AT guys right? Just not RIGHT NOW....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[scoreboardII]

You spend 2 days in Indoc,1 day of systems and the rest of the time shoveling fecal matter out of the unicorn stables in Dallas. Not that bad really. It doesn't stink and weighs almost nothing. After all, it's just a bunch of sparkly dust.

FI post of the month award, well done.

 

[General Lee]

Everyone, lets make this a GL free holiday season, at least through 12 Jan 2013

do this:

Top of screen go to your User CP

Left side select edit ignore list

start typing General Lee into box for ignore, but guess what, within a few strokes the second one to pop up is GL.

Select OK with GL, the first one is General Iee, whoever that poor guy is...

Then select save changes to the right of the OK box.

Sit back and enjoy FI GL free till 2013.

The truth hurts......try....to....black....it out....

Classic.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[scoreboardII]

Your hostility is misplaced, my friend.

ALPA certainly had NOTHING to do with the list in SIA 2. Southwest management came to the table and said "Here's your better list, take it or leave it." Jack and the MC fought for several days to improve the list, and they simply got stonewalled. As did the NC when we showed up to negotiate the T&C's that accompanied the rest of the deal. We got a few small bones thrown our way, but the big ticket items were dictated by SWA management.

SWAPA, by and large, sat back and watched. They chimed in on the T&C's when it involved them and said "If they get something, we want something, too", but other than that, SWAPA didn't have much to say about the staple crowd, either.

FTR, I'm almost in the same boat you are. The difference in SIA 1 for me was a complete staple and SIA 2 there are 200 or so pre-announcement SWA pilots junior to me, all of which have 3 years or so less longevity than I do. That might make a 7-8 month upgrade difference, but not really enough to justify voting Yes.

The reason we took the deal is because we were instructed to by AAI ALPA as they saw the pilot group imploding, starting recalls, and sending letters to SWA management begging for a staple just to keep their jobs. You can't negotiate crap if the rear lines are sending up the white flag.

Long story short, again, you're pointing your anger in the wrong direction. That said, it does no good to be angry at the management team who orchestrated where your seniority fell, because... well... they're management. Being mad at them will do nothing but get you on the "naughty" list. Best thing you can do is find a happy place (which for most of us no longer involves the work side of aviation - lots of happy glider guys and homebuilt people who re-discovered their love for flying that has nothing to do with their job) and let it go.

Trying to start the New Year off fresh and anger-free. That's this year's New Year's resolution. Along with finishing all my boat and car projects... LOL Maybe I'll take the profit and buy myself a share in an airplane. Aviation Access Project - look it up on FB, very cool.

Which brings it right back around, if it was so bad, you should have left it and gone to arbitration. Instead, 80 plus percent voted in favor, a new record vote margin by the way.:beer: