SWA culture!

[GuppyWN]

Not quite.

The most junior WN Captain was hired 11 years ago yesterday.

ALL BUT 480 AAI CAPTAINS would be junior to our guy by DOH.

Gup

 

[redflyer65]

Well stated Flycatcher.

I guess Fair and Equitable is all good unless it cuts the other way. I find it interesting that some junior AAI captains really expect to keep there seats and get all that the SWAPA contract brings with it. I've even heard them state it will be great to be based where they live (like HOU or BWI) and keep their seat....really? I think some need a complete reality check on this stuff.

I hope that the AAI MC can talk some sense into the rank and file, if not this could turn out much worse in the long run.

 

[texman]

Yall are a bunch of brothers picking on each other. I am your daddy! So stop! LOL! Yall drink some beer and have good weekend.

 

[Lear70]

So you're saying almost HALF our CA's are junior to at least your #1 F/O?

If so (and I'd have to look at our seniority list compared to yours to see the numbers), that's about 2 years of upgrades for retirements on the SWA side, notwithstanding growth, correct?

 

[On Your Six]

You're right Ty, the wholly-owned sub is called AirTran Airways...for now. If SWA chooses to keep you as a wholly-owned, they can name you whatever they please.

Regarding codeshare, you're almost half right. Though our current contract prohibits domestic codeshare, I'm quite sure our pilots would be willing to waive that part under certain circumstances. As far as your contract, don't be foolish enough to think any language in you new contract can prevent SWA from doing whatever it wants with you.

There's a reason your MC is so actively requesting that your group lower its expectations lately. They know what can and can't happen. Listen closely to them when they explain it to you.

Had an Airtran jumpseater yesterday tell me GK wants this deal to go faster, which is putting pressure on SWAPA. Arbitration will make it go really fast.



OYS

 

[Just thinking]

....."I'm simply a bit amazed that you, with a straight face, can say that you think it is the right of all AAI Captains to keep their seats in this acquisition, when there are 10-year FO's at SWA.".......

How many of those 10-year FO's at SWA bypassed the upgrade when it came? Did they bypass because there was not an upgrade available at their current base? Did they bypass the upgrade for QOL issues? If Oakland is the most junior base then every pilot that upgraded should have been at Oakland. Maybe they missed their opportunity to upgrade when they bypassed and the economy tanked and the upgrades dried up? Maybe they chose to stay DAL based instead of jumping on the grenade and upgrading into OAK. Just as AAI has 10 year FO's that chose not to upgrade for QOL they also have to wait for their opportunity if they want to upgrade when times are slow for the upgrade. They have to wait for the vacancy to post and then their SENIORITY dictates who gets the seat. Just because an AAI FO wants to upgrade does not mean they can kick a junior Captain out of his seat.


Point of clarification..... How many SWA FO's have more LONGEVITY with SWA than your most junior Captain (Jun 2001 hire?)

 

[GuppyWN]

This message is hidden because On Your Six is on your ignore list.

But I can guess what you said.

Lear, I mistyped. Our junior Captain STARTED his 11th year yesterday. But it is correct that AAI only has 480 +/- Captains senior to him. Or said differently our junior Captain is senior to 75% of all AAI pilots.

Hopefully that helps put in perspective what a windfall relative or DOH would be for you guys.

Have a good one. There's a whiskey with my name on it.
Gup

 

[dicko]

No, I mean cold, hard cash gains, and benefits gains, and scheduling gains, and domicile gains, etc. So if it works out that you lose a captain seat, you don't lose money, but gain it.

A Captain at AirTran who has been here for 8+ years is on $ 153 an hour. The 8 year FO rate at SWA is around $139 (converted from TFP).

It's a pay cut to become a SWA FO.

The fact that you could make more if you jump through hoops doesn't interest everybody. Nor is it set in stone. I do recognize that for some there may be the QOL differences.

 

[Dash Power]

A Captain at AirTran who has been here for 8+ years is on $ 153 an hour. The 8 year FO rate at SWA is around $139 (converted from TFP).

It's a pay cut to become a SWA FO.

The fact that you could make more if you jump through hoops doesn't interest everybody. Nor is it set in stone. I do recognize that for some there may be the QOL differences.

How much was the Captain rate at Airtran on September 27th?

 

[jball2]

I have really tried to take the high road with this but I have to speak my peace and I will leave this thread alone. When it comes down to it, you have to understand the we at SWA are very protective of what we have. To have someone with 50% less longevity think they are entitled to a position above us on the seniority list IS the entitlement we refer to. We HAVE worked longer and harder to get where we are. This is not to say anyone is lesser of an aviator at AAI. It means we put more into getting to our position WHERE WE ARE. It is no mystery AAI was plan b or c for a large part of your list. You cannot dispute that, if you do you are being disingenuous. Hell, I live in Atlanta and it was never even an option based on the working conditions there.

In closing, I am sorry if my rant offends my future family members. I am just trying to put into words what most of us think. I have been here 10 years, just like our buddy Ty. He, as well as others IMPLY they deserve more than their longevity will hold because they upgraded lightning fast at Airtran and to us it is ludicrous. If being a 737 CA is the only true career expectation we should all apply for XTRA air or Vision street captain spots. Fire Away! I have worked too hard for this.

 

[redflyer65]

Nor is it set in stone. I do recognize that for some there may be the QOL differences.

Neither is the growth that Lear keeps alluding to.. it is what it is now. Plus the absolute fact that the Airtran contract was done immediately after the purchase announcement. It's all inter-related. You most likely would not have the rates you have now without Southwest to begin with. Not saying you don't deserve them...you most absolutely do, but Bob was gonna string it out even further otherwise. He had no incentive to get a deal done, until Gary came calling.

Talk about getting labor onboard. Throw them a new contract and call it good. Then wait for the golden parachute.

And don't come on here and tell me it was almost done anyway. The heavy lifting was still ahead. Take a closer look at the differences in pay on Sept 26th and tell me that the same junior AAI CA would be making more than the senior SW FO with those payscales. This is the real snapshot of the windfall, not what was passed later. The contract was not produced in a vacuum guys.

I have an idea how the meeting is going to go down with Gary. Be an interesting July 17th for sure.

 

[SWA/FO]

Point of clarification..... How many SWA FO's have more LONGEVITY with SWA than your most junior Captain (Jun 2001 hire?)

12 up to Date of hire 7/5/01. :cartman:

 

[scoreboardII]

double checked, 12. 12 FO's who could have upgraded, or roughly .004.

 

[waveflyer]

A Captain at AirTran who has been here for 8+ years is on $ 153 an hour. The 8 year FO rate at SWA is around $139 (converted from TFP).

It's a pay cut to become a SWA FO.

The fact that you could make more if you jump through hoops doesn't interest everybody. Nor is it set in stone. I do recognize that for some there may be the QOL differences.

Dicko- pay rates are one thing, work rules and pairing efficiency are the multiplier- to this end the APC rough calculation doesn't do our system justice- you have to look at what we turn it into. I've had jobs where I turned $47/hr into $67k and another where I turned $42/hr into $35k working more days less efficiently.

So, though the tone sounds good 'I won't jump through hoops!' that doesn't recognize what life is like here. I won't get into a pairing contest- it's just simply more efficient at WN, and looking at rates without looking at W2's will never be comparing apples to apples.

An average 3rd year FO made more than your sept 26 AT capt. Every 8+ year FO makes more than them now. There's no getting away from that.

And a +1 with the previous poster. It took years longer for the average SWA pilot to garner this job than the average AT pilot to get theirs. That's relevant to seniority.

 

[SWA/CA]

Hey Ty
...some facts are coming to a union near you soon, very soon.

 

[PCL_128]

Allow me to think out loud for a moment. Say a deal takes Ty's seat away from him but keeps the top 25% of your Captains in their seat. Now you've got a simple majority of Airtran pilots that are willing to accept a deal that "harms" the bottom 75% of your Captains.

The wild card is NOT your Captains. The problem you have is convincing your FO's that this deal, in ANY way, harms them. That's a pretty big mountain for you to climb.

You're kidding yourself if you believe this pilot group, including the FOs, will vote to approve a deal that knocks a relatively senior captain like Ty out of his seat. The idea of any captain losing his seat is absurd.

 

[greenpilot]

I don't know why this myth is perpetuated, it's been explained several times:

THERE ARE NO 5-6 YEAR CA'S AT AAI.

The most junior one is at 7 years and most are 8+. The point being, you're probably only talking about 100-150 CA's that have the inverted DOH issue with SWA F/O's. Not making an argument about whether they should stay in their seats, just making sure you guys are seeing the bigger picture about how many people we're talking about (less than a year's upgrades on the SWA side for retirements starting in 2012).

Lear our latest upgrade class was filled with 05 hires. That would make them captains after 6 years of employment.

 

[Lear70]

But I can guess what you said.

Lear, I mistyped. Our junior Captain STARTED his 11th year yesterday. But it is correct that AAI only has 480 +/- Captains senior to him. Or said differently our junior Captain is senior to 75% of all AAI pilots.

Hopefully that helps put in perspective what a windfall relative or DOH would be for you guys.

Have a good one. There's a whiskey with my name on it.
Gup

Thanks... ended up having beers instead (a friend's 40th bday party / 4th of July cookout combined), but might have that whiskey tonight. :beer:

Thanks for the info, helps to understand why relative is so upsetting to most of your pilots, but I still don't understand the angst against DoH. It seems to level the field considerably for your pilots while simultaneously making us sacrifice a significant amount of relative seniority in exchange for the SWAPA contract and working relationship.

To be specific, DoH is an 18% hit on my relative seniority. I lose my base out of that more than likely (depending how the system bid drops after integration), and take a hit on my upgrade from 18-24 months to 4-6 more years. (and no, I'm not including the money argument, I'm just talking about Quality of Life). I lose my ability to hold weekends and holidays off with my son and family, vacation bidding goes to crap weeks again, etc, etc.

Not that I am saying life would be bad, I obviously wanted to go to SWA for a reason and was willing to take that hit (although not all AAI pilots were), but the point I'm trying to make is that for most of us, Date of Hire *IS* a sacrifice for us. So it confuses us when people tell us that taking a hit on our Quality of Life for years to come before we get back to where we were *ISN'T ENOUGH* ? Really??

Sincerely, please help me understand how that's not enough of a "sacrifice", since some seem to believe that additional sacrifice over what we've already faced to get here is required to get there, even though a large portion of our list didn't ASK to get purchased.

And what do you tell THOSE people? The ones who didn't WANT to come to SWA, but are now being told they'll have to SIGNIFICANTLY sacrifice what they've achieved here to go to a carrier they never applied to?

I have really tried to take the high road with this but I have to speak my peace and I will leave this thread alone. When it comes down to it, you have to understand the we at SWA are very protective of what we have. To have someone with 50% less longevity think they are entitled to a position above us on the seniority list IS the entitlement we refer to. We HAVE worked longer and harder to get where we are. This is not to say anyone is lesser of an aviator at AAI. It means we put more into getting to our position WHERE WE ARE. It is no mystery AAI was plan b or c for a large part of your list. You cannot dispute that, if you do you are being disingenuous. Hell, I live in Atlanta and it was never even an option based on the working conditions there.

In closing, I am sorry if my rant offends my future family members. I am just trying to put into words what most of us think. I have been here 10 years, just like our buddy Ty. He, as well as others IMPLY they deserve more than their longevity will hold because they upgraded lightning fast at Airtran and to us it is ludicrous. If being a 737 CA is the only true career expectation we should all apply for XTRA air or Vision street captain spots. Fire Away! I have worked too hard for this.

Fair enough, and well-said, without threats or mud-slinging, I appreciate that, thank you. It's what makes the difference between an offending post and someone reasonably discussing their thoughts in a way that encourages debate.

Here's a counter-thought that has been percolating at the back of my head just wondering what the majority of SWA pilots would think about it (not that this is what ANY pilots at AAI would agree to, I don't speak for anyone, this is purely hypothetical):

You said that you don't believe anyone is entitled to a spot above their longevity on the SENIORITY LIST. So what would you guys think of an SLI that keeps everyone in their seats for 2-3 years but places them at their Date of Hire longevity on the ISL? Additionally, what would you think of an agreement where all the upgrades for the duration of that fence continued solely on the SWA side so as to more closely equalize the DoH gap by the time the fence came down?

You don't have tens of millions of dollars in training costs associated with a big displacement, it will take up to a year to integrate the fleet anyway and get the SWA training dept up to speed on how they want to operate and teach the 717 (half or 1/3 of the duration of the fence), you don't instantly p*ss off half the CA's at AAI, you cut the number down to only 50-100 CA's who are still "upside down" by the time the fence comes down, and everyone keeps their same bidding power while all this happens.

Additionally, how would you feel if the senior F/O's who were senior to our CA's by DoH were pay protected at CA rates until they upgraded as well?

I ask because that's how some similar arbitrations have gone, and I'm trying to figure out if it's really about the Date of Hire and money disparity as some have said, or if it's really just about the left seat. If all other equalizers are the same, your senior F/O's are pay protected at CA pay but still keep a better QoL from their bidding ability as a senior F/O, the final ISL doesn't permanently put our CA's senior to them with less longevity, and it all equalizes within a few years, then it shouldn't matter what seat they're in. Correct?

Again, just a hypothetical, trying to understand if that would be acceptable or not and why...

Thanks, and have a great weekend!

 

[Lear70]

Lear our latest upgrade class was filled with 05 hires. That would make them captains after 6 years of employment.

You're right, there's a handful that fit in that category on our overall list. The main thing that got my attention was the 5 year CA thing that keeps getting floated.

Our most junior MCO 737 CA is an '03 hire, and our most junior MCO 717 CA is an '04 hire, so 8+ and 7+ years respectfully.

I don't have the newest MSL with me to check the overall ATL CA population...

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

You're kidding yourself if you believe this pilot group, including the FOs, will vote to approve a deal that knocks a relatively senior captain like Ty out of his seat. The idea of any captain losing his seat is absurd.

Todd,

So if AirTran had purchased the seat that you paid for at Gulfstream, you should have become an AirTran captain after integration. Anything else would be absurd. Is this what you are saying? Ty, do you care to opine on this one?

I predict crickets...

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Re-read what I wrote- I said I hadn't mentioned my SLI expectations since 2010, when our respective MC/NC's asked us not to.

That's why it is irrelevant.

Sheesh. :erm:

Where you would be smart to abstain from SLI discussions is on your internal board. Too late for that though.

 

[Tripower455]

You're kidding yourself if you believe this pilot group, including the FOs, will vote to approve a deal that knocks a relatively senior captain like Ty out of his seat. The idea of any captain losing his seat is absurd.

One of the reasons that Ty is a relatively senior Capt is due to the massive attrition to other airlines, including (gasp) SW, that AAI has had since it's inception.

Certainly, this will play into the whole SLI picture.

 

[waveflyer]

You're kidding yourself if you believe this pilot group, including the FOs, will vote to approve a deal that knocks a relatively senior captain like Ty out of his seat. The idea of any captain losing his seat is absurd.

Says the man who does not like to fly. Who, instead of paying his dues, building time an earning his first job, paid tens of thousands to sit in the right seat at Gulfstream- gladly taking a short cut. Who has always taken jobs at crappier companies. Who got recalled from his AT office for interfering with the SLI. Who still holds an executive position at ALPA national and has larger aspirations.

Everytime you post PCL, you prove what everyone knows- that ALPA national has ZERO motivation to smoothly integrate, and will attempt to poison the culture at swa through the SLI by raising expectations hoping to weaken a competitor- while simultaneously winning points with remaining ALPA members by fighting the good fight against SWA. (regardless if that fight or those expectations are good for AT pilots.)

Good luck.

For those at AT who don't have agendas- do not buy it. Get on the list. I can't say it any clearer or any other way- you don't want to regret pushing too hard - get on the list. Have a good attitude. Show up. Work hard. Take care of everyone you see while at work. Become part of the family. Get on the list.

Lear, from the snapshot, swa continued to hire in 2008 several months longer than AT did. There are several hundred FOs at WN who would be placed junior to your bottom guy w/ straight DOH- the bottom FOs at AT were furloughed in '09- for how long? So there's a time of service/longevity issue there too. Like it or not- Im an '07 hire and I haven't talked to anyone who will accept CJ not having several hundred AT under him, if not all FOs. And yes, fences, seat protections, $$, all are options to keep costs down for swa and keep status quo for the transition- we don't hate you guys- we just know what you will experience- so there's little patience for any crap of you guys somehow not being happy and we understand and value what you're getting by becoming SWA pilots. It seems like some on here have a lot of fear. And I wish I could alleviate that- but if fear makes you more aggressive, more hard-line, then FDR is correct again when he said the only thing to fear is fear itself.
Keep that in mind when the aggressive hard-liners try to sell you their fear. Get on the list and do it smiling. I'll buy the wild turkey.

 

[Tweet-a-Lishus]

Lear, your post was well thought out. It at least shows that you are willing to try to make it fair and equitable for both sides. I am a senior FO that will be affected and would sure take a look at a scenario like that. The devil would be in the details.

Good luck to us ALL!

 

[Ty Webb]

Hose, you're obviously only interested in mud-slinging.

Comparing integration with a small turboprop operator and a major airline is obviously wasted time.

Likewise, there are no SLI discussions on our internal board..... Apparently, you need a new mullah to hand you your talking points.

 

[waveflyer]

Hose, you're obviously only interested in mud-slinging.

Comparing integration with a small turboprop operator and a major airline is obviously wasted time.

Surprisingly, you must not have access to our internal board, or you'd know there are no SLI threads there.

Agreed, now if AT bought Virgin....?

 

[Ty Webb]

Agreed, now if AT bought Virgin....?

Honestly, if they brought the appropriate number of planes/pilots and weren't shrinking or losing money and even had more aircraft ordered, what would I care? No bump, no flush, and some fences...... Done.

Of course, I'm just a plain belly sneetch...

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

likewise, there are no sli discussions on our internal board.....

mmbwwaaaa haaa haaaaa haaa!!!

 

[Dan Roman]

Todd,

So if AirTran had purchased the seat that you paid for at Gulfstream, you should have become an AirTran captain after integration. Anything else would be absurd. Is this what you are saying? Ty, do you care to opine on this one?

I predict crickets...

I'm not sure which is stranger, that you would somehow think AirTran buying a turboprop regional is the same as an SWA/AirTran merger or that you think your reasoning is so sound that you predict crickets.

Seems to me fences are going to be the answer. I totally understand SWA F/O's not wanting AirTran guys coming in and taking their upgrade seat and of course their is no justification for a SWA F/O thinking he is going to go to ATL and take an AirTran Captains seat away from someone. I believe that is defined as a windfall, which it is the arbitrators job to mitigate.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

I agree that the Gulfstream/AAI hypothetical is absurd. That was by design. Not because GS flies turboprops, but because of their place on the career progression ladder. GS is an entry level "job" (I use that term loosely). AAI is a stepping stone job.

AAI is a stepping stone job, SWA is a "destination" job.

Applicable analogy, albeit with a little hyperbole.