SWA/Airtran Process Agreement??

[shootr]

Panel of 3 arbitrators, not one. Harmful because the solution was forced and the parties could not come to agreement. Imagine you're buying a car. You're stuck on a number and the dealer is holding on to a number. An arbitration is forced. Very possible that one side ends up PO'd at the end if the result is not percieved as fair. A negotiation would have been a better end result for at least one of the parties.

Again, I don't fear arbitration. But it's a risk. I don't like taking risks with my career at SWA. It may very well be that AT ends up with a better deal through negotiations, esp. with SWA involved, rather than with arbitration. A bone, if you will, so SWAPA does not have to take the risk of going to arbitration.

When our high-powered attorneys showed up at SWAPA hdq, they were all about some type of relative ratio. Then they got a hold of our contracts, got an understanding of both groups work rules, and they completely changed their collective minds. They are itching to go to arbitration but SWAPA and SWA want a negotiated deal.

6000 pilots versus 1700 pilots. Which group has the potential to have the highest number of PO'd pilots, affecting SWA's bottom line. Gary is ruthless and ALL business. I don't believe Gary will support me over you because he loves me or has loyalty toward me. It's a bottom-line decision. 3000 PO'd SWA FO's versus 850 PO'd AT CA's makes for an easy decision. But I don't believe it'll go that way. SWA will be involved and a negotiated solution will have incentives making is more palatable to one side or the other.

Just an informed opinion,
shootr

 

[On Your Six]

Crashpad,

I won't comment on HOW it should go down but I agree with your sentiment. I guess the fighting is 5900 WN pilots trying to protect 40 years of history/seniority and 1650 AAI pilots trying to get all they can.

Gup

Classic. Why wouldn't an arbitrator see exactly what you said and give you exactly what you want? Unless.........what you are saying is a bunch of bull.... What about what the AT pilots have? What about the assets they bring to the table? They are bringing planes, slots, hubs, and things that will make SWA stronger. You guys LUV to forget that. An arbitrator would see right through your BS.


OYS

 

[GuppyWN]

Classic. Why wouldn't an arbitrator see exactly what you said and give you exactly what you want? Unless.........what you are saying is a bunch of bull.... What about what the AT pilots have? What about the assets they bring to the table? They are bringing planes, slots, hubs, and things that will make SWA stronger. You guys LUV to forget that. An arbitrator would see right through your BS.


OYS

Dude,

You seen to gloss over the fact that we already have the contract, the schedule, the fleet, the network, the pay, the growth plans etc.

Airtran absolutely brings other opportunities and will be rewarded for that no matter where they end up on the combined list.

You sure do like to fan the flames.

Gup

 

[On Your Six]

Panel of 3 arbitrators, not one. Harmful because the solution was forced and the parties could not come to agreement. Imagine you're buying a car. You're stuck on a number and the dealer is holding on to a number. An arbitration is forced. Very possible that one side ends up PO'd at the end if the result is not percieved as fair. A negotiation would have been a better end result for at least one of the parties.

Again, I don't fear arbitration. But's it's a risk. I don't like taking risks with my career at SWA. It may very well be that AT ends up with a better deal through negotiations, esp. with SWA involved, rather than with arbitration. A bone, if you will, so SWAPA does not have to take the risk of going to arbitration.

When our high-powered attorneys showed up at SWAPA hdq, they were all about some type of relative ratio. Then they got a hold of our contracts, got an understanding of both groups work rules, and they completely changed their collective minds. They are itching to go to arbitration but SWAPA and SWA want a negotiated deal.

6000 pilots versus 1700 pilots. Which group has the potential to have the highest number of PO'd pilots, affecting SWA's bottom line. Gary is ruthless and ALL business. I don't believe Gary will support me over you because he loves me or has loyalty toward me. It's a bottom-line decision. 3000 PO'd SWA FO's versus 850 PO'd AT CA's makes for an easy decision. But I don't believe it'll go that way. SWA will be involved and a negotiated solution will have incentives making is more palatable to one side or the other.

Just an informed opinion,
shootr

That is what happened with the DL/NWA merger, a panel of 3 arbitrators. It isn't harmful when both sides have strong feelings about seniority and someone or a group can figure it out fairly. Has any group been able to amicably come up with a solution yet during any SLI merger? Of course not. Will one group be upset with the result? Probably, but that is something that happens during all mergers. When you get your joint contract done first, both sides will get a pay increase, and that helps soften the blow of the SLI. But just remember, SWAPA did not decide on this merger. That may have been the case with F9, but not AT. Wall St lead this one. And, if AT can get a better deal with negotiations rather then arbitration, then great, but I doubt that. A group of arbitrators would be more likely to pepper in more Capt positions around the top end (maybe not the top) of the list and have SWA guys mixed in at the bottom, which is probably more fair, especailly to the AT guys. If there is a large group of AT guys only at the bottom, I don't see them voting for that at all. And, there may be a large amount of SWA pilots mad, because that group is bigger. If they don't think there will be AT pilots put in front of them, they will likely be upset.

I fly with ex-NWA guys every trip out of DTW, and I talk to them all the time about their SLI and their feelings on the merger. Some are ticked a bit, but most have gotten over it. They like the new airline now, have more choices, have better pay, and have moved on mentally away from the SLI. You will too eventually.


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

Dude,

You seen to gloss over the fact that we already have the contract, the schedule, the fleet, the network, the pay, the growth plans etc.

Airtran absolutely brings other opportunities and will be rewarded for that no matter where they end up on the combined list.

You sure do like to fan the flames.

Gup

I am not trying to fan the flames. I just can't understand your complete cockiness. Really, if you don't want your SLI to be fair, just say it. You imply it everytime you type. I have friends at both SWA and AT, and I can see that your merger will be good for both. You see it as a hinderance to your own career. It is not up to you. GK is doing this for Wall St and for your airline to grow in ways it currently cannot. And this SLI is not up to you, and you are not losing a dime for being a part of this. Just let the process work and be happy you are at a solid airline. Just like you have your wants and needs, so do AT pilots. They don't have to thank you for this opportunity, it was GK and Wall St who wanted this to happen. Nobody has to bow to you or your group. No flames intended.


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

I have seen the light. This deal has the potential to create growth. Now, with that being said we southwest pilots feel we have earned a right to be at swa. You can't blame us for feeling that way. GK will take care of his own first then yall. We swa pilots do respect what you have built since 1994. But that should go. Both ways. If Yall feel that GK can't crush this deal, think agian. I been trying to tell everyone on this board since day one, this is GK's game. Not some arbitrators. Yes there are laws that need to be respected, but dont think for one moment that Alpa is going to tie GK's hands. Our shareholders do respect our culture, this is what has made them money. The light AT needs to see, is Yall had no money to grow. Swa will help you. Swapa will make your life better. We Swapa pilots have nothing to gain from this, unless we grow and get a good deal out of the MISL. AT will get a great QOL , working environment, money and job security. You can't have every thing. Good luck to us all.

Arbitrators won't see it that way. You will get a joint contract first (all successful recent mergers have done that, and USAir did not), and then your pay will be equal at that point. From there a SLI will be formed, by the arbitrators, based on what each brings to the table, the history of the airline, etc. Fairness will form the SLI thanks to the group of neutrals. Obviously the arbitrators will see everything you are saying, and reward you because of your correctness, right? Being scared of fairness is sad, texman.


OYS

 

[GuppyWN]

I am not trying to fan the flames. I just can't understand your complete cockiness. Really, if you don't want your SLI to be fair, just say it. You imply it everytime you type. I have friends at both SWA and AT, and I can see that your merger will be good for both. You see it as a hinderance to your own career. It is not up to you. GK is doing this for Wall St and for your airline to grow in ways it currently cannot. And this SLI is not up to you, and you are not losing a dime for being a part of this. Just let the process work and be happy you are at a solid airline. Just like you have your wants and needs, so do AT pilots. They don't have to thank you for this opportunity, it was GK and Wall St who wanted this to happen. Nobody has to bow to you or your group. No flames intended.


OYS

Fair enough and I appreciate the rationale instead of just WN sucks. I'm already a captain so this deal isn't going to hurt me or help me "that" much but it will most certainly affect the guy sitting beside me. Therefore I fight for him more than I fight for me because if he is happy with the deal, how can I not be?

If you can define FAIR for me then I'll be happy to tell you if it is fairness I am after. I personally think that equal or better EVERYTHING with a stronger company is fair. Now we just have to figure out HOW fair!

What you hear from WN pilots is pride, not cockiness. You hear the same thing in the AT guys postings. Trust me, we'll get past this for the better and be buying each other brews and yucking it up together sooner rather than later. I'm actually looking forward to it and to the new experiences that lie ahead.

Gup

 

[On Your Six]

Fair enough and I appreciate the rationale instead of just WN sucks. I'm already a captain so this deal isn't going to hurt me or help me "that" much but it will most certainly affect the guy sitting beside me. Therefore I fight for him more than I fight for me because if he is happy with the deal, how can I not be?

If you can define FAIR for me then I'll be happy to tell you if it is fairness I am after. I personally think that equal or better EVERYTHING with a stronger company is fair. Now we just have to figure out HOW fair!

What you hear from WN pilots is pride, not cockiness. You hear the same thing in the AT guys postings. Trust me, we'll get past this for the better and be buying each other brews and yucking it up together sooner rather than later. I'm actually looking forward to it and to the new experiences that lie ahead.

Gup

I never said SWA sucks. But, the overriding attitude sometimes on this board from supposed SWA pilots can get the best of anyone. Careers don't always turn out the way you think it will (I've already had one long furlough), and pilot pride has nothing to do with mergers, rather from Hedge Fund management pride. They are leading the way here. It's not up to you to decide what is fair or not, since you have something riding on it too. The only people who can honestly decide what is fair or is not is a group that has nothing to benefit from any ruling. That is the truth, and you probably know that. Good luck to you guys.

OYS

 

[funnyman12]

If an SLI was awarded that increased everey SW pilots position on the list by a few percent and decreased every Airtran pilots position by a few percent, how would that hurt one SW pilot? This would be the result of a ratio....eg....im at 22% from the bottom at AT....may be I would slide to 18%. At the same time a SW pilot at the same position would gain a few. My point is...how could that SLI award be negative to a SW pilot? It would improve life for every SW pilot while providing AT guys with a similar quality of life as they have now.

 

[shootr]

while providing AT guys with a similar quality of life as they have now.

You have to know this is not even close to the truth. Read our contract.