SWA/Airtran Process Agreement??

[Ty Webb]

With over a $1,000,000,000 in debt.

When my grievance gets heard, they're going to owe me at least $8,000. so you can say they owe $1,000,008,000.

 

[iluvflying]

With over a $1,000,000,000 in debt.

Well for only the next 6 or 7 business days. Then it gets acquired.

 

[27 driver]

funny,

I see your logic. I can't wait for SWAPA to show the QOL and biding power of even a JR FO has at SWA. But never the less your right about the wild card. I am curious if the arbitrator will consider the 717 smaller craft and class than the 737, or the same.

Tex, the 717 will carry the same amount as your 500's. I doubt it will be considered a smaller craft or class. Time will tell.

 

[27 driver]

Ok, so I understand- a 20 something 2001 new hire at AT who didn't meet SWA hiring mins can/should be placed above a 30 something 2001 WN new hire. Direct capt seat and a huge raise for the rest of the carrer. And the SWA guy only gets his upgrade delayed another few years. And thats fair.

Got it. Thanks.

And BTW, who said Staple was 'illegal'.
Unlikely, sure. But 'illegal', don't think so.

You assume that everyone at AAI can't get hired at LUV. With very few exceptions everyone here at the tranny meets and exceeds your hiring mins.

 

[Bob Dylan]

My sources tell me the lists will never be integrated unless it's a staple. Even that is a gift to the trannies because a couple weeks ago it was looking like preferential interviews only with no integration.

Take the staple trannies. You'd be crazy not to. It's likely the best you're going to get.

 

[GoodTimes]

Funny,
With fences, less than doh can easily happen. Fences will be a player in these negotiations, especially considering the different fleet type.

 

[iluvflying]

..................

 

[rajflyboy]

After all this is Good Friday

but come on now

There is no way that SWA is going to use 717's. How nieve are some of you peeps?

Look at the history here. It just ain't happening.

 

[funnyman12]

Gentlemen.....my point is that looking at decades of arbitrations there has never been an award of less than DOH. So statistically it most likely will be DOH or better...That is history. Of course this could re-right history. I believe there will be a solution that most will find acceptable. Time shall tell....nigh nigh guys.

 

[ASADFW7]

This thread is the number one topic on this site. Even more so than cal ual and dl nwa.

 

[SWA/FO]

Arbitrators don't use "history" - they decide on facts. Every case is different. Nothing like this has happened before. Before you chime in ****-face OY6.... this is different then NWA/DAL.

ALPA Tranny and SWAPA will make a deal:beer: . Oil $$$ is rising, get it done...

 

[scarlet]

Life is NOT going to change that much !! RELAX. If you are not happy, I hear USair is hiring, maybe AA.

Unions will work it out..GK will pay SWA guys a chuck of $ if approved.

If Arbitrators rule=out of everyones hands.

 

[scarlet]

how many aircraft coming in the next 5 years, I believe I heard almost 200=?

 

[PapaWoody]

The likely hood of an arbitrator ruling on an SLI less than DOH is extremely unlikely. I understand that many SW pilots feel that DOH would be a huge gain for an Airtran pilot. That is not the reality of fair and history of arbitrated SLI's show that less than DOH is not a possibility. If DOH was awarded the SW pilots would experience a significant bump on the combined list and Airtran pilots would take up to a 25% hit on the list. DOH should be the SW pilots hope....Find me an arbitrator whom gave an airline (non-bankrupt) less than DOH. You wont find it and it very most likely will not happen.

Not to be contentious, but AAI guys always try to ignore the SLI between Chautaqua and Shuttle America, which started the integration of the S/A guys at around 30% from the bottom and resulted in a large number of them stapled. When it's pointed out that the Chq/SA SLI was an arbitrated result that followed the guidelines of Allegheny/Mohawk, the stock answer is that "SA was in bankruptcy, so it isn't a similar situation". My answer to that is, yes SA was in bankruptcy, but the similarities in the contractual disparities (50-80% across the board on Sept. 27th) were there and are still there (30-50% across the board post-new contract), and SA at least had the excuse of being in bankruptcy as to why their contract didn't even come close to Chq's. And the contractual gains that were going to be enjoyed by the SA pilots was a major part of the arbitrators award, regardless of how they came to be.

I'm not saying that I think we should expect the same result or even try to get something similar, but I do think that makes it every bit, if not more, applicable as any "precedent" that was established by USA/AWA or DAL/NWA, IMHO. Of course I have an opinion of what would be fair and equitable, which I will not share as per our unions directive. I will, however, point out that AAI F/O's becoming SWA F/O's with their current longevity would be the equivalent of or greater than an upgrade at AAI. Since I'm assuming that most of the F/O's at AAI would take the upgrade if offered by AAI (sans this integration), thus trading their seniority as an F/O for juniority as a CA with the accompanying 50% pay raise, I would say that result in this case would be more than fair and equitable. Again, just my opinion. The CA side is a little tougher, but if the CA seat was the end all be all, we'd all have stayed fat, dumb, and happy as regional CA's.

Contrary to Ty's assertion that seniority is forever, as airline pilots we often trade in our "seniority" for a better standard of living for our families. I'm sorry that in this case, it might not be voluntary, but there are worse things that could happen to your career than the marriage of AAI and SWA. I think SWA guys just hope that we can say the same thing when this is all over.

Respectfully and Fraternally,
PapaWoody

 

[S3sundowner]

......

 

[PCL_128]

I would just advise you have EXTRA outside lawyers look over any deal even after your ALPA lawyers sign off on a deal. Pay the extra money for the extra scrutiny.

We have multiple outside attorneys in addition to the ALPA attorneys.

 

[On Your Six]

Arbitrators don't use "history" - they decide on facts. Every case is different. Nothing like this has happened before. Before you chime in ****-face OY6.... this is different then NWA/DAL.

ALPA Tranny and SWAPA will make a deal:beer: . Oil $$$ is rising, get it done...

They don't use precedent? What? You have no idea what you are talking about. Sure, every case is different, but don't expect something "radically" different than recent arbitrations. Your two airlines are fairly similar LCCs, with similar plane types. Your airline is larger and your compensation is better, which may allow more SWA pilots at the top, but there will be AT pilots as Captains, and mixed in the middle, with SWA pilots joining the ranks at the bottom. You can't escape that.


OYS

 

[GoodTimes]

Could be wrong, but didn't the Nicolau award give the Airways peeps waaaay less than DOH?

 

[CMonBoard]

When this is "all over" in 10 years, 1080 WN pilots and 150 FL pilots will retire. In 15 it will be over 2100 and 360 respectively. It doesn't matter; you guys can discuss this all you want, but the movement from the retirements and the growth will exceed the "movements" by the General and OYS on their Asia layovers.

 

[GuppyWN]

When this is "all over" in 10 years, 1080 WN pilots and 150 FL pilots will retire. In 15 it will be over 2100 and 360 respectively. It doesn't matter; you guys can discuss this all you want, but the movement from the retirements and the growth will exceed the "movements" by the General and OYS on their Asia layovers.

True but if this deal goes bad it'll create ripples for GENERATIONS, not years.

Gup

 

[General Lee]

I knew my post's would make you come out. Where have you been? Question? Do you know that it will go to arbitration? Can you explain how Delta got that great contract back in the day. Who did Delta piggy back off of?

I have been flying a lot of Asia trips, and sometimes I don't have a good Wifi connection, or I would rather sit on the beach and relax. As far as whether or not you guys will go to arbitration, I don't know for sure, but if the terms are not acceptable to the majority of the AT pilots, I bet you will then. If you try to force too much of a ratio, or not allow a significant amount of their Captains to remain Captains in a combined list, then anyone would think they would choose arbitration. Back in the day Delta used the phrase "United plus 1" when we were negotiating the C2K contract, but before that we got new 777s without a payrate. When they showed up on property, Dalpa refused to fly them. Leo Mullin was Chairman at the time, and he decided to give in to Dalpa's demands, which was a raise for EVERY plane Delta had, and a big one. We forced their hand. Then United got their big contract, and we added to our 777 agreement to get an even bigger raise. So, part of it was from our own deal with the new 777s, and part of it was piggybacking off of UAL. Our 777 Captains made $315 an hour. (double that for greenslips on your day off) Granted, we didn't have that many planes, but those guys hit the lottery. And before you state that our payrates helped with our BK, remember we also had a Comair strike that cost $1 billion, 9-11, and then when thoughts of BK leaked out, 2000 Captains left with their lump sum pensions, and many left with $1 million or more. The payrates were a fixed cost. Your current payrates and benefits (like 90 trips min on reserve with 105 average for your pilots per month) amounted to more than what we had total, because we had furloughed pilots and were limited to what we could have per month back prior to BK. (maybe 75 hours a month max, and then the rest put into a bank) Our payrates were great, but we couldn't see them to max due to the pilots on furlough, which was fine with me at the time. That's the story.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[CMonBoard]

I disagree, Gup. Generations? Really? I don't think it will go down that way with smart people on either side.

If it goes bad for me, with retirements and growth, I think it will be even. If it goes bad for you, it won't be any different. In the next 25 years, over 80% of each list will turn over. And that's assuming "we" (I know I can't really say that until 5/2) don't grow one iota.

 

[General Lee]

When this is "all over" in 10 years, 1080 WN pilots and 150 FL pilots will retire. In 15 it will be over 2100 and 360 respectively. It doesn't matter; you guys can discuss this all you want, but the movement from the retirements and the growth will exceed the "movements" by the General and OYS on their Asia layovers.

First off, it looks like according to his profile, OYS is an A320 FO, which means no Asia for him. I do fly a lot of that, and it is FANTASTIC. No corndogs in sight, and nice beaches in the Marianas and Palau. Looking at the numbers, 1200 or so SWA pilots leave in 10 years (according to the above with the Airtran guys), which means about 120 a year. That isn't great. "Movement" isn't created in your airline compared to a Legacy, because you only have one or two plane types. When a Widebody Capt retires at a Legacy, 20 or so movements happen, from Widebody Captains moving up from A330 to 744, all the way down to the DC9 FO moving up to the MD88. In 15 years, your retirements gets a little better, but not much. Retirements mean a lot to QOL and pay, and since it appears that your domestic growth is limited by airport size and gates, and grandiose INTL plans that may or may not ever happen, stagnation is a distinct possibility sans mass retirements. The Airtran group just seems like a young group overall to me. Delta, on the other hand, has 7600 planed to go within the next 15 years, and a chunk of that is sooner rather than later. That could really help with QOL and upgrades sooner, which can help your overall career. If you think current payrates and benefits here are here to stay, then you also haven't got a clue. Thanks to your whole group getting high pay, that alone will help our cause.

And when it comes to my own "movements", I have plenty of time to relax and enjoy them on my one leg days in Asia at a nice hotel, while you have to squat in your cramped, nasty 737 bathrooms and do it since you are running late and still haven't done the walkaround in ELP after just flying in from HOU. Enjoy it.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Tweet-a-Lishus]

There you go Papa Woody making sense again!

 

[Lonestar]

madjack, What is so contentious about a group of neutrals that take facts and precedent and rule on what is presented from BOTH sides?

ATLplt, I really don't think you get it. The same goes for a large number of your group.

First, there is NO precedent for this scenario. An airline 4 times the size of yours ACQUIRES yours. The acquiring airline's pilots make 50-70% more pay with better benefits, schedules, no furloughs, etc.

Second, the facts are that your airline couldn't sustain your sub-par labor contracts. They couldn't sustain growth. They can't sustain the current fuel prices. They can't overcome the debt vs. lack of assets. These facts will be confirmed by your new boss. Bob Jordan of Southwest Airlines. Bob answers only to Gary Kelly. Our boss, who knows the value of culture.

If y'all choose arbitration, your sole argument will be that of a three year old- "Because its not fair!"

Good luck with that one.

 

[Kharma Police]

ATLplt, I really don't think you get it. The same goes for a large number of your group.

First, there is NO precedent for this scenario. An airline 4 times the size of yours ACQUIRES yours. The acquiring airline's pilots make 50-70% more pay with better benefits, schedules, no furloughs, etc.

Second, the facts are that your airline couldn't sustain your sub-par labor contracts. They couldn't sustain growth. They can't sustain the current fuel prices. They can't overcome the debt vs. lack of assets. These facts will be confirmed by your new boss. Bob Jordan of Southwest Airlines. Bob answers only to Gary Kelly. Our boss, who knows the value of culture.

If y'all choose arbitration, your sole argument will be that of a three year old- "Because its not fair!"

Good luck with that one.

Strange, using your facts and information, you guys should be demanding arbitration but for some reason are not. Sounds like a slam dunk win for you, you should push for it with SWAPA..............

 

[SWA/CA]

First, there is NO precedent for this scenario. An airline 4 times the size of yours ACQUIRES yours. The acquiring airline's pilots make 50-70% more pay with better benefits, schedules, no furloughs, etc.

Second, the facts are that your airline couldn't sustain your sub-par labor contracts. They couldn't sustain growth. They can't sustain the current fuel prices. They can't overcome the debt vs. lack of assets. These facts will be confirmed by your new boss. Bob Jordan of Southwest Airlines. Bob answers only to Gary Kelly. Our boss, who knows the value of culture.

If y'all choose arbitration, your sole argument will be that of a three year old- "Because its not fair!"

EXACTLY! bring on arbitration.

 

[Wesb737fo]

True but if this deal goes bad it'll create ripples for GENERATIONS, not years.

Gup

Really man?.... If it doesn't go the way someone wants, you think they will sit their grand kids on their knee and say " sonny.... I was there back in the day when that awful tragedy of the SWA/AAI SLI was awarded."

Not saying it's not important, just step back and take a deep breath. The folks on the MC's will make it fair and equitable.

 

[-9Capt]

An airline 4 times the size of yours ACQUIRES yours. The acquiring airline's pilots make 50-70% more pay with better benefits, schedules, no furloughs, etc.

Your pay, schedules and benefits are part of your CBA. Your CBA has an ammendable date. There is no guarantee those benefits will continue. Actually, history all but guarantees they won't. An arbitrator knows this.

If y'all choose arbitration, your sole argument will be that of a three year old- "Because its not fair!"

Good luck with that one.

Exactly right, "fair and equitable" just like the law requires...and what's more "fair" than keeping your current seniority. Neither side gains, neither side loses. It sounds like some of you are looking to boost your seniority at the expense of others. Good luck with that.

 

[ATLplt]

Strange, using your facts and information, you guys should be demanding arbitration but for some reason are not. Sounds like a slam dunk win for you, you should push for it with SWAPA..............

Exactly what I was thinking.

Lonestar, it's all so clear now. Thanks, and good luck to you too. *snicker*