SWA/Airtran Process Agreement??

[funnyman12]

Lots of good points from both sides....leads me to believe a group of arbitrators will come up with a fair SLI solution...fair is nowhere near staple. Historically the arguments were DOH vs Relative seniority. I imagine the solution will fall somewhere between the 2. In 9-12 months I will quote myself with this post and will see how accurate my hypothesis was.

 

[RLAblows]

Oh boy, talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth...many Trannys on this forum were begging to be bought and relieved of their management and contract, but now that it has happened are shopping for seniority, while enjoying a windfall in QOL/benefits and job security...amazing

I don't think anyone is "shopping" for seniority, but I don't see how QOL = staple. Doesn't seem fair to me.

 

[dicko]

I wasn't talking to you but I guess I'll reply to your speculation on what the arbitrators might look at. They might look a the fact that while your upgrade then was estimated at four years and ours was five, your upgrade put you financially equal to about a 4 year SWA FO, and our upgrade put us over 50% above your most senior captain. Something else that might be considered is the fact that SWA is a place where pilots have aspired to work, even pre 911 with sub-standard rates. There is not one pilot on the AAI list who is there because that is where they always wanted to work. Couple that with the fact that SWA had hundreds of apps on file from AAI pilots in the hiring years prior to the transaction, and I feel pretty good about the picture that might be painted.

That being said, a negotiated solution is best for all.

My Bean eating brother,

A quick note on your consistently fair analysis; AirTran upgrades were in the 2 to 2.5 year range during that period. Progression of 70% up a seniority list in 9 years. The pay now matches DAL MD88 and DC9 rates.

Not fantastic. Not SWAPA, however a relatively good improvement in a short period of time.

Care to give an accurate breakdown of upgrade times at SWA from 2005 till present day ? Perhaps a quick number for movement up the list ?

There are always two sides to the peso.

 

[waveflyer]

Funnyman- I'd guess it's not either- both of those methods would leave CJ and the few hundred pilots hired in 2008 at the bottom of the combined list w/ no one but our 2011 hires beneath all of them- I see various moods about SLI around SWA- but no one who will vote for all those swa pilots being the plug and a several hundred pilot cushion for the bottom AT pilot at the end of the day.

These jobs just weren't equal and swa bought AT-
A staple won't happen, but neither will straight relative or DOH bc of this.

 

[madjack]

Funny,

Your prediction would be a very contentious award amongst the SWA pilots. May 2nd was a day of celebration for all AAI employees. It was just business as usual at SWA. The reason for this is that AAI pilots gain on all fronts, pay/benefits, job security and QOL. They will have access to a huge system and will enjoy increased flexibility, in short their lives will change dramatically for the better. SWA pilots gain NOTHING, they will not get a pay raise, or increased benefits...the only fair solution is for AAI to give up seniority in return for being part of the SWA CBA, the question for negotiators/arbitrators is how much seniority gain/loss is fair and equitable...

 

[GuppyWN]

Care to give an accurate breakdown of upgrade times at SWA from 2005 till present day ? Perhaps a quick number for movement up the list ?

There are always two sides to the peso.

WN has upgrade roughly 1,000 Captains since 1/1/2006 - or 60% of the entire AAI seniority list.

Is that what you were looking for?

Gup

 

[funnyman12]

We shall see....I would bet that a less than DOH is highly unlikely. There are hundreds of solutions that could occur that would protect both groups, especially the senior SW fo's. Im looking for an SLI that doesn't negatively affect one SW pilot. Im sure that there is a way to solve this by giving every SW pilot an increase in overall seniority and Airtran pilots only lose a couple of percent. BTW DOH would increase every SW Pilot's seniority significantly, but hurt Airtran guys up to 25%. It is pretty alarming that SW pilots think DOH hurts them. I would like ONE example of the negative affect of DOH to the SW pilot group, the are many for the Airtran pilots.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Dude, give it a rest already. For every argument you make, there is a counter-argument that is equally cogent. After 60 pages, it has all been said.

I was responding to one of your guys.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

My Bean eating brother,

A quick note on your consistently fair analysis; AirTran upgrades were in the 2 to 2.5 year range during that period. Progression of 70% up a seniority list in 9 years. The pay now matches DAL MD88 and DC9 rates.

Not fantastic. Not SWAPA, however a relatively good improvement in a short period of time.

Care to give an accurate breakdown of upgrade times at SWA from 2005 till present day ? Perhaps a quick number for movement up the list ?

There are always two sides to the peso.

Prior to 09 the SWAPA calculator had about 5yrs for Lance Ca, 6 yrs for line Ca. Things changed when Gary dropped his growth plans in favor of acquisition. Age 65 didn't help either. I was using Jonjuans numbers in response to his idea of what the arbitrators might look at.

 

[dicko]

WN has upgrade roughly 1,000 Captains since 1/1/2006 - or 60% of the entire AAI seniority list.

- Or 16.9 % of the SWA list .....

It's that "two sides to the Peso" thingy again. I have no idea what it all means. Thankfully we all have some very bright people to work it out for us.

Cheers.

 

[GuppyWN]

Me neither and amen! But turnabout is fair play. How many Captains have ya'll upgraded since 1/1/06?

LOL,
Gup

 

[madjack]

Funny,

OK, DOH would put 4-500 AAI pilots ahead of me...after SOC, GK decides to not grow for a few more years...my QOL/career stagnates as well as the former AAI pilots above and below me on the list...but the AAI pilots all get more cash/benefits...The AAI pilots must share the risk...by being aquired and merged the AAI pilots have skipped all the barriers to entry that pilots face to get on at SWA. They have been handed their last airline job...to pass the "smell check" and be considered fairly integrated by your future SWA coworkers, something south of DOH for AAI will have to be negotiated/arbitrated...JMHO

 

[elcid]

Lots of good points from both sides....leads me to believe a group of arbitrators will come up with a fair SLI solution...fair is nowhere near staple. Historically the arguments were DOH vs Relative seniority. I imagine the solution will fall somewhere between the 2. In 9-12 months I will quote myself with this post and will see how accurate my hypothesis was.

I imagine that you are imagining things.

DOH is an absolute windfall for AT, and SWA pilots get zilch out of that... oh, I forgot, empty promises of explosive growth. So one side has a huge pay check gain, benefits, time off, vacation increase, etc, etc, and the other... well, the checks in the mail? I agree that an arbitrator will come up with a solution. I am afraid if that happens though, AT may lose in several ways. 1) It ain't gonna be nowhere near DOH. Way closer to staple. 2) If the arbitrator does go with what you are talking about, my bet is that the two operations will never operationally merge (AT stays a wholly owned subsidiary). Who knows what after that, but it isn't good either way for AT. The best solution for everyone is a mutually agreed to list. The best solution for SWAPA pilots is that ALPA pulls a Muse Air again and demands way more than the good deal they are offered by SWAPA. Good luck everyone. I hope the best for all 8000 pilots. It will be interesting.

 

[tankerhead]

Does this mean you're gonna take a dump in my lunchbox if it goes DOH or better?

I better get out a needle and remove that little "a" from my shirts and pants. Lord knows I can't afford to buy new ones.

 

[madjack]

No, I am not sure what would happen if a DOH + award was the result of arbitration AND after SOC became the final ISL...I do not feel our NC would agree to this result so it would be an arbitrated decision, "forced" upon the pilot group. It would be a very contentious outcome and most of the 6000 SWA pilots would not feel that a fair and equitable result was achieved. As I have said before GK could break out the checkbook and make this all right, then again he may just leave it to the pilot groups and arbitrators and hope that we can live with the result...after all we ain't gonna quit and go work somewhere else...

 

[Secret Squirrel]

I was responding to one of your guys.

No you weren't. Jonjuan is not a AT pilot. That is ONE problem with this thread. Half of the posters are Bob Dylan or Delta PILOTS.

 

[funnyman12]

Well guys your SLI predictions are not supported by any method of a past arbitrator's ruling. You may be correct but my understanding of the judicial system suggests that you hypothesis is very unlikely. An arbitrator will make sure that no SW pilot is PRESENTLY affected negatively by the SLI. Arbitrators won't play the "what if" game on lots of growth or stagation predictions for the future. Read arbitrations over the last couple decades, less than DOH never happened and yes ere large pay differences between some of the airlines involved. I re-iterate....I believe no SW pilots seniority should be negatively affected.

 

[funnyman12]

I look forward to working you guys but im gonna take a FI break. I know that in the end we will kick arse. Have fun flying!

 

[dicko]

If the arbitrator does go with what you are talking about, my bet is that the two operations will never operationally merge (AT stays a wholly owned subsidiary).

Not a good bet. It's an thinly veiled threat that you have no way of following through on. It's not what's best for your company, your fellow employees or the shareholders. It's also the exact opposite of what your/our boss has been saying consistently.

I know that was pretty blunt and if I offended you I apologize. The atitude you just described is seen by AirTran pilots as a coercive attempt to affect our decision making. Nothing more.

An SLI that you or I don't like will not destroy a culture.

 

[madjack]

Funny,

Not arguing your prediction...just describing the response that it (DOH +) would recieve from your future co-workers (IMHO)...welcome to SWA...