SWA/Airtran Process Agreement??

[GuppyWN]

Don't worry, Ty and his lawyer will know your name too once FI gets subpoenaed for the lawsuit for a hostile working environment. Don't think it can't happen?, ask your favorite moderator to fill you in......

I have given my FI login to people in the past and I know there have been many posts that weren't made by me. I have never changed my password. As far as I know KP, even YOU could have logged in as me before. I know there have been many AT and SWA peeps who have given their logins to their respective union sites to the other team.

This site is entertainment and should only be viewed as such. Am I wrong?

Gup

 

[waveflyer]

Just stop w/ the bullish/t people.
Again, we can have a successful merger or we can end up like Airways- OUR CHOICE.

Funny how personal responsibility gets a lot tougher when we apply it to OURSELVES and the man in the mirror, instead of to other people.

Just relax all.

 

[Lear70]

Lear, please allow me to quote you: "Incorrect information."

While there may be an implementation schedule negotiated between SWAPA and ALPA, that will simply the process to determine when y'all will work under the SWAPA CBA. It's our contract. We negotiate the rates of pay for each aircraft SWAPA pilots will or might operate. There is no trigger to re-open this for y'all to secure any particular pay rate. Current SWAPA pilots will negotiate with SWA to determine the pay rate for the 717. Period.

This is the incorrect information I was talking about. Not to be picky, but you didn't QUOTE anything at all. In the section I erased yesterday, I quoted extensively from the process agreement which specifically states HOW negotiations for these pay rates will occur - they happen OUTSIDE your CBA as this section modifies that process for this specific issue at this specific time and was agreed upon by all 4 parties.

To summarize, Section 2.d.i says that BOTH SWAPA *AND* ALPA shall comprise an Implementation Work Group to work with the Company to Implement items which shall include:

a. Adjustment of the AAI-ALPA CBA to reflect the compensation and benefits of the SWAPA CBA.
b. Application of the SWAPA CBA to the AirTran pilots.
c. B717 pay and work rules to be applied under the SWAPA CBA to both Southwest and AirTran pilots.
d. International pay and work rules to be applied under the SWAPA CBA to both Southwest and AirTran pilots.

It then goes on further to say in 2.d.ii that SWAPA acts as consultants ONLY for 2.d.i.a. In other words, ALPA negotiates (not SWAPA) for our pay rates until we fall under the SWAPA CBA rules (b, c, and d above).

SWAPA negotiates WHEN b, c, and d happen which, admittedly, there's no time trigger for. So, basically, we continue to work under our existing CBA until ALPA negotiates higher rates and work rules consistent with your CBA and until SWAPA negotiates the same for your own CBA and agrees on a date to bring us over. That date could, indeed, be a while, but if it's an AGREED, NEGOTIATED SLI, I don't see why that would happen.

The point is that our pay isn't "frozen", nor can it go backwards, UNLESS Southwest DECIDED to create a lower B-scale for ALL their pilots too who operate the 717 in the future, which is only applicable when we transition over to the SWAPA CBA, that's the only misconception I'm trying to clear up here. There's no logical reason for that to happen, and the funny thing is 2.d.i.a above to change OUR CBA requires FULL member ratification per our policy manual. Our MEC doesn't have the authority to change pay rates or work rules without full member vote, so whatever is agreed to by ALPA in 2.d.i.a has to be better than what we've got or we simply won't allow it to pass.

Whatever happens once we're represented by SWAPA is a whole different ball of wax but I can't believe SWAPA would deliberately create a b-scale within their own pilot group of pilots who will fly this aircraft in the future. Makes no sense. It really helps people to read the full document, not just executive summaries. Too much important information to miss to rely on summaries.

 

[sfomarc]

That's the 2nd time I've heard that idea alluded to. I don't know where it's coming from, but it's absolutely false.

There's nothing in the Process Agreement, the Purchase Agreement between Southwest and AirTran, our new CBA, OR the Railway Labor Act that allows for those pay rates (or any other part of our contract) to be retracted or rescinded.

Whoever's propagating that rumor needs to quote some hard and fast language in one of those documents or figure out a new rumor of the day. Right now the VAST MAJORITY of AAI pilots I speak to are pretty open about what they may consider "fair". Start spreading false rumors and fear, and you're likely to get those people to dig their feet in and be less willing to find some type of "middle ground".

It's like any other kind of negotiation, you p*ss off one side, and the negotiation pretty much ends, even if it hurts one side or the other. Not a good idea IMHO. Too many people here have spent far too many years under hostile working conditions to respond well to more fear and intimidation.

Just a thought...

That is not what I meant. Ty said that he is happy at AI and did not ask for this acquisition. My question is was he happy at AI prior to the announcement which had AI headed toward a strike. Or is he saying he is happy now after the announcement with SWA and the pay raise you received possibly because of the announcement.

 

[SWA/CA]

OY6 says:

To all AT pilots on this board: just remember that the SWA pilots are not the ones giving you your future higher pay rates, management is. The SWA pilots aren't losing a dime here. You don't owe them anything, even if they think they worked hard for their contract, after they piggybacked off of the Delta and United contracts before them. After you get your higher pay, go for arbitration, and get a fair ruling on your SLI by neutrals. Good luck.

then he said: pass the bong, dude this is some great stuff! (cough cough)

After you get your higher pay, go for arbitration, and get a fair ruling on your SLI by neutrals

Problem is they don't get the SWAPA contract until after the list, if SWA uses "said list" you dip ****. We would be making LESS money if we piggybacked off of bankrupt Delta and bankrupt United (funny you worked for both) contract. Just a thought.

 

[texman]

This is the incorrect information I was talking about. Not to be picky, but you didn't QUOTE anything at all. In the section I erased yesterday, I quoted extensively from the process agreement which specifically states HOW negotiations for these pay rates will occur - they happen OUTSIDE your CBA as this section modifies that process for this specific issue at this specific time and was agreed upon by all 4 parties.

To summarize, Section 2.d.i says that BOTH SWAPA *AND* ALPA shall comprise an Implementation Work Group to work with the Company to Implement items which shall include:

a. Adjustment of the AAI-ALPA CBA to reflect the compensation and benefits of the SWAPA CBA.
b. Application of the SWAPA CBA to the AirTran pilots.
c. B717 pay and work rules to be applied under the SWAPA CBA to both Southwest and AirTran pilots.
d. International pay and work rules to be applied under the SWAPA CBA to both Southwest and AirTran pilots.

It then goes on further to say in 2.d.ii that SWAPA acts as consultants ONLY for 2.d.i.a. In other words, ALPA negotiates (not SWAPA) for our pay rates until we fall under the SWAPA CBA rules (b, c, and d above).

SWAPA negotiates WHEN b, c, and d happen which, admittedly, there's no time trigger for. So, basically, we continue to work under our existing CBA until ALPA negotiates higher rates and work rules consistent with your CBA and until SWAPA negotiates the same for your own CBA and agrees on a date to bring us over. That date could, indeed, be a while, but if it's an AGREED, NEGOTIATED SLI, I don't see why that would happen.

The point is that our pay isn't "frozen", nor can it go backwards, UNLESS Southwest DECIDED to create a lower B-scale for ALL their pilots too who operate the 717 in the future, which is only applicable when we transition over to the SWAPA CBA, that's the only misconception I'm trying to clear up here. There's no logical reason for that to happen, and the funny thing is 2.d.i.a above to change OUR CBA requires FULL member ratification per our policy manual. Our MEC doesn't have the authority to change pay rates or work rules without full member vote, so whatever is agreed to by ALPA in 2.d.i.a has to be better than what we've got or we simply won't allow it to pass.

Whatever happens once we're represented by SWAPA is a whole different ball of wax but I can't believe SWAPA would deliberately create a b-scale within their own pilot group of pilots who will fly this aircraft in the future. Makes no sense. It really helps people to read the full document, not just executive summaries. Too much important information to miss to rely on summaries.

Lear,

Are you saying that no matter how long it takes to get on the SWA cba, Alpa is going to negotiate with SWA on new rates for your side? Isn't your contract up for renewal in 4 1/2 years?

 

[roughneck]

Alpa gets a seat at the table if there is a negotiated SLI. If this goes to arbitration Swapa will be negotiating the 717 payrates, international work rules, coverage dates of the Swapa CBA to the AirTran pilots.

If there is not a negotiated SLI ALPA will remain on the sidelines as they are today. No negotiated agreement, no seat at the table. They will of course be able to address any concerns they may have with the Guadalupe Management team which I hear will be led by Fornaro.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

All of you barracks lawyers who have seen an episode or two of law and order and feel like you are going to solve this issue on this board are killing me.

LET THE MCs DO THEIR JOB AND GET A HOBBY!

 

[ASADFW7]

In about 30 days the negotiations will begin. I can imagine that the reality of what is presented as an opener will not meet the expectations of the other side. Part of what is needed to understand is the public information that is being used to structure these proceedings. The reality of a better solution in a negotiated deal is not hidden from anyone who has read the associated documents. The reality of arbitration is something that has many more unknowns for both sides. As the time line is extended there is a potential economic loss for the group that is compensated below the higher contract value. As of today one group is hiring and the other group isn't. As of today one group is receiving deliveries of new airplanes and the other group isn't. These are both public information.

There is a real encouragement and an environment from SWA to get a negotiated deal. If these are perceived as threats, or written as threats to the Airtran pilot group, that is unfortunate and that is definitely connected to the many unknowns that are presented by this process.

SWA is bringing forward this transaction to grow the size of their business. The employee groups are just trying to figure out how the pieces are going to be placed together.

The aspect of individuals being pissed off and spouting off in the middle of this process are a distraction to the final outcome. It is unfortunate that public identities are brought forward. Trust me I am an ass too at times when it comes to discussing this. I remember my rants, and though they are on the internet forever, it isn't the lasting impression of how I feel about the parties that are involved. What makes SWA work is the people, and the people that are communicating here are not always representing the behavior that is becoming of a professional, myself included.

I think it is in the best interest of many, to keep the personal attacks out of the conversation, and not point out the island of possibilities that may result if the two sides do not come to a negotiated agreement. The actual negotiations will start soon enough. The new world reality will come to both sides. If either sides fights for a 100% solution it will never come, 80% is much easier. If you do not know what that is, it is a reference to the 4 hour work week. I would rather work less and have an easier rest of my career, and drink a few beers along the way, and still want to go to work, than try for the unattainable.

We are not to going to convince every individual that our opinion is correct. Period.

 

[kwick]

To all AT pilots on this board: just remember that the SWA pilots are not the ones giving you your future higher pay rates, management is. The SWA pilots aren't losing a dime here. You don't owe them anything, even if they think they worked hard for their contract, after they piggybacked off of the Delta and United contracts before them. After you get your higher pay, go for arbitration, and get a fair ruling on your SLI by neutrals. Good luck.


OYS

Don't confuse these guys
With reality!

 

[GoodTimes]

OYS,

Your so far behind the curve regarding the details of this acquisition that your posts are laughable.

 

[Lonestar]

Lear-

It then goes on further to say in 2.d.ii that SWAPA acts as consultants ONLY for 2.d.i.a. In other words, ALPA negotiates (not SWAPA) for our pay rates until we fall under the SWAPA CBA rules (b, c, and d above).

I think that you are still missing the GIANT "IF" statements that are written into this document:

(d) In the event that an integrated seniority list is reached through negotiations, the
following shall apply:
(i) SWAPA and ALPA will each designate members of their respective
Negotiating Committees to comprise an Implementation Work Group,
whose sole responsibilities will be to negotiate an implementation
schedule with the Companies to include:
a. Adjustment of the AirTran-ALPA CBA to reflect the
compensation and benefits of the SWAPA CBA;
b. Application of the SWAPA CBA to AirTran pilots;
c. B717 rates of pay and work rules to be applied under the SWAPA
CBA to Southwest and AirTran pilots; and
d. International pay and work rules to be applied under the SWAPA​

CBA to Southwest and AirTran pilots.

and:

(e) In the event either ALPA or SWAPA fails to ratify the negotiated integrated seniority
list, the list and the implementation schedule and letters of agreement delineated in
Section II (d) shall be null and void and without any force and effect and shall not be
admissible for any purpose in any proceeding including but not limited to any arbitration
under this Agreement.​

Sure... IF our NC and your MC come to an agreement, AND that agreement is ratified by BOTH pilot groups, then ALPA will get a chance to talk with WN about implementation.

IF any one of those items fail to happen, THEN this entire section
(Section II: Negotiation of the Integrated List) is "Null and Void" and none of it gets to take place.

Please remember that IF this can't be negotiated and rattified, ALPA cannot force WN to recognize an arbitrated list. They do have the ability run seperate ops for a VERY long time. An arbitration panel cannot force WN to combine...period.

 

[GuppyWN]

I sure look forward to the day we try kick the competitions ass instead of each others!

Gup

 

[Lear70]

Lear,

Are you saying that no matter how long it takes to get on the SWA cba, Alpa is going to negotiate with SWA on new rates for your side? Isn't your contract up for renewal in 4 1/2 years?

No, I'm saying that until a SLI is reached (one way or another) and implemented (one way or another), we remain on our CBA. 4 1/2 years is unlikely in the EXTREME, even with an arbitrated scenario, and I'm certain we'll be able to figure out something long before then, but I can live with the pay rates and work rules in our T.A. - they jump quite healthily in 2013 and 2014 and actually start approaching within a couple dollars of your rates by then.

However, both sides are reasonable people with a common goal in mind of long-term, stable employment and a healthy, happy company and I am confident we'll reach an agreement or get so close that only small things to go arbitration and the award is still acceptable.

I think that you are still missing the GIANT "IF" statements that are written into this document:

No, I just chose not to address them because just as the alternative is unappealing to us, it's unappealing to you, too, but for reasons no one seems to really have considered yet and I REALLY hope never becomes necessary.

Sure... IF our NC and your MC come to an agreement, AND that agreement is ratified by BOTH pilot groups, then ALPA will get a chance to talk with WN about implementation.

IF any one of those items fail to happen, THEN this entire section
(Section II: Negotiation of the Integrated List) is "Null and Void" and none of it gets to take place.

Not exactly.

Yes, Sec 2 becomes null and void, HOWEVER, there is a mechanism in place to cover that event after arbitration when one side doesn't want to implement the SLI award. RAH and F9 are going through it right now. It's ugly. It's messy. It makes everyone REALLY, REALLY angry and I really, truly, hope this doesn't happen, too much is at stake with the culture to LET it.

I believe if both sides negotiate in good faith, which I believe they will, we will come to an agreement. There's probably going to be a lot of rumors over the next several months, a lot of propaganda, and tempers will be short, but both companies have good people and we will all make it through this.

I sure look forward to the day we try kick the competitions ass instead of each others!

Amen.

 

[Lear70]

That is not what I meant. Ty said that he is happy at AI and did not ask for this acquisition. My question is was he happy at AI prior to the announcement which had AI headed toward a strike. Or is he saying he is happy now after the announcement with SWA and the pay raise you received possibly because of the announcement.

Oh, I gotcha. Thanks for the clarification. :beer:

 

[On Your Six]

OY6 says: then he said: pass the bong, dude this is some great stuff! (cough cough)



Problem is they don't get the SWAPA contract until after the list, if SWA uses "said list" you dip ****. We would be making LESS money if we piggybacked off of bankrupt Delta and bankrupt United (funny you worked for both) contract. Just a thought.

Well done! Contract after SLI, sounds exactly like USAir. And, your rates were piggybacked off of DAL pre-BK, and UAL before that. If they were done post BK, yours would be lower. Darn you are cocky. I still advocate the AT guys to go for arbitration first, especially with guys like you out there on the SWA side. Fair is best.


OYS

 

[Lonestar]

Not exactly.

Yes, Sec 2 becomes null and void, HOWEVER, there is a mechanism in place to cover that event after arbitration when one side doesn't want to implement the SLI award.

Still missing the point:

Notice how I said WN and not SWAPA? We will have a list...come H**L or HIGH WATER (whether it be negotiated or arbitrated. That's a given. However, that list does not ever have to be implemented if its arbitrated (and) WN decides to go the "Road less Traveled".

I don't think that was unintentional.

 

[Lear70]

Southwest management signed 6.a. as well. No, I'm not missing your point. I simply believe this being a 4-way signed document including SWA management and par 6.a precludes what you are thinking but who knows.

Time will tell and I still have faith in all of us to find a middle ground and choose a solution we may not "like" but can live with versus the unknown of arbitration.

 

[S3sundowner]

Wow. Been off here for a few days and took me an hour to catch up! Good entertainment boys. My money's on a negotiated settlement. Let's get this party started.

 

[Lonestar]

Yep, you're right... 6(a) was signed off on by all parties involved. I just wonder how much water that paragraph will hold if there are any "debilitating circumstances" pop up.

I'm not trying to be a jerk (although I'm sure that I am coming off as one to some), but I just don't think that everyone understands the importance of this document: GK does not want this to go to arbitration. He wants a negotiated list (one big happy family). If it does go to arbitration, then all bets are off.