SWA/Airtran pilot integration thoughts, what will the new list look like?

[Flopgut]

It wasn't until the very next union rag after the December 2007 rule change that we saw an article reminding the Captains that this change would be detrimental to the junior folk, and to please keep them in mind when discussing these things.

You're lucky to get that much acknowledgement. ALPA didn't make a peep about detriment to even the pilots who were furloughed because of it.

You really need to think about that. I wouldn't doubt that if you were in jeopardy of being furloughed that the company or SWAPA would have stepped in and done whatever was necessary to make certain that didn't happen. Within ALPA, it's almost as though the senior begrudge the recent recalls. As if payroll increase going to a junior pilot trying to feed a familiy is an afront to their five years of gravy....

 

[texman]

And about half the people reading your posts just tuned out.

When you're wrong about a basic tenet of your argument, people stop listening.

AirTran not only requires 1,000 turbine PIC, it requires 1,000 hours turbine PIC 121 or military time. In other words, Southwest will take a guy with Part 91, 135, or Fractional PIC time. AirTran won't, they hold a higher standard of 1,000 Part 121 Turbine PIC (or military equivalent).

p.s. a large number of our pilots already have the 737 type but, if you would feel better, maybe we could require all our pilots to get a 737 type if all YOUR pilots have to go out and get a 717/DC9 type. Fair enough? (tic )

Dude, Frac time is more challenging flying, and holds a higher standard than any 121 time ask all the retried guys that work there now. Long runways, ILS, gate agents, dispatch, csa. All these people to help you provide customer service. Not in the frac world, you do it all. You never did the frac thing. so you dont know. All the retired and 121 guys had there azz handed to them when they came over to the frac side. They said it them selfs.

 

[mdf]

Can we drop the "Qualifications" argument. We are all doing the same job. I do think the disparity in pay needs to be carefully considered. I would give an extra year seniority for anyone who spent more than a year in Carbondale, and actually graduated. Minus 5 years if you were on the flight team :laugh:

 

[Fubijaakr]

Fubi, not bad,,, not bad at all. Our senior CA's would scream but as long as the fence for CA was of a LONG duration (at least 5 years if not longer), they should be fine.

That's the beauty of no bump/no flush. AAI pilots would maintain their current positions in their current bases until they voluntarily bid out. Granted, subsequent openings would probably be filled by pre-merger SWA pilots, but the AAI guys would have some protection.

One slight adjustment I'd make to my prior proposal would be to merge the lists by ratio SUBTRACTING the number of pre-1993 SWA pilots from the ratio.

 

[Rough67]

Dude, Frac time is more challenging flying, and holds a higher standard than any 121 time ask all the retried guys that work there now. Long runways, ILS, gate agents, dispatch, csa. All these people to help you provide customer service. Not in the frac world, you do it all. You never did the frac thing. so you dont know. All the retired and 121 guys had there azz handed to them when they came over to the frac side. They said it them selfs.

woah woah there toughguy.. man... everyone settle.. I have done both... so I do know. Do you mean it's more challenging because you have to watch that Aspen slot, or check on that car rental, or do that non precision to a mountain airport in the weather... or mabye even load some bags yourself!! oh my goodness.. "get their (*sp) ass handed to them".. I mean common really. Oh wait i forgot you actually file your own flight plans and check the radar and stuff too? ! That sounds much more challenging ! Look.. we all know the truth.. Pilots are pilots. There are good and bad.. there are jobs harder and easier.. Which is more challenging? who cares.. just try not to make it so obvious that you think that 121 folks can't file a flight plan man.. criminy.

 

[waveflyer]

You're lucky to get that much acknowledgement. ALPA didn't make a peep about detriment to even the pilots who were furloughed because of it.

You really need to think about that. I wouldn't doubt that if you were in jeopardy of being furloughed that the company or SWAPA would have stepped in and done whatever was necessary to make certain that didn't happen. Within ALPA, it's almost as though the senior begrudge the recent recalls. As if payroll increase going to a junior pilot trying to feed a familiy is an afront to their five years of gravy....

Actually, most airlines would have had me on the street for the better part of a year- I don't think it's kool aid to know that SWA sacrificed a lot of money living with being fat on pilots for that time.... It's a different ideology - they view that as an investment over the career- now it's my job to remember

 

[texman]

woah woah there toughguy.. man... everyone settle.. I have done both... so I do know. Do you mean it's more challenging because you have to watch that Aspen slot, or check on that car rental, or do that non precision to a mountain airport in the weather... or mabye even load some bags yourself!! oh my goodness.. "get their (*sp) ass handed to them".. I mean common really. Oh wait i forgot you actually file your own flight plans and check the radar and stuff too? ! That sounds much more challenging ! Look.. we all know the truth.. Pilots are pilots. There are good and bad.. there are jobs harder and easier.. Which is more challenging? who cares.. just try not to make it so obvious that you think that 121 folks can't file a flight plan man.. criminy.

I know the difference, I am 121 now. Just defending that side of the flying.

 

[freightdogfred]

Says the guy wants is a free Captain ride on the regatta. You're too expensive Freddie. Are you actually going this year?

Hey ya wanna win, ya pay me...I'm a hired gun, I don't go cheap. I'll sail for WN if they got the cheez heh heh

 

[Full of LUV]

Still not seeing why SWAPA doesn't see the opportunity....

Wow, this is amazing.

Fubi's idea is probably what's going to happen. One thing to say. Seniority, Longevity and Pay are three separate issues in a merger. FL pilots should be able to expect no seat bump, no flushes, and the same rate they're getting now. They should expect to join the new list with their longevity intact in respect to benefits. Once the SLI is complete they will most likely join the SWA pay scale at an equivalent rate, i.e. move laterally, then upwards from there. Example: 12 year FL pilot makes $153 per hour (APC rates). He should be able to move over to the WN scale at that rate, regardless of longevity. However, APC has no hourly rate that low for WN, and the highest FO hourly is lower, so they'd join at the lowest CA rate of $181 (hourly equiv.). This would similarly be handled with FO pay. Point being for the purposes of pay, longevity and seniority should expect to be treated separately.

One thing I've noticed in these posts is the lack of hubris. Why should any pilot begrudge another for making more money? They should be happy that there is one less low-paying pilot contract out there they have to deal with come negotiating time. Every time an airline thinks their poo doesn't stink they get thrown off "the hill" into it? It appears from the posts that SWA is following the previously designated historical "Sky Nazis" down this path.

I've sat on WN's and FL's jumpseats as well as most of the other airlines out there that fly types I've flown. Your poo does stink. So does mine. None of you are all that special or unique. Most of the airline out there hire on the basis of personality not skill. WN has never required a sim check. The sim I got from FL in 1998 was a joke. MMPI's or their equivalents rule HR departments.

Everyone step back. Take a deep breath. Take another tact. Be happy this is happening. There are thousands of furloughed/bankrupt carrier pilots on the street or are flying overseas. Neither of you have to expect that. Say to yourselves, "OK, this is good. We can make this happen and all grow and prosper. I don't want to backslide in my career, but I want to see this resolved peacefully, quickly, and positively for all (or almost all), knowing that only the 'Number One Guy' will be the only true happy guy the list. And he will only be happy if he was already happy."

Good luck.

Really, SWAPA should be seeing what they can get out of the deal to make the merger go through quickly and efficiently. A piece of the new stock? More profit sharing? The only thing each pilot group seems to be focused on is how to get one over on each other. Together, mgt will have access to much more revenue to pay all, if negotiated appropriately. I thought SWA doesn't even have an 800 payrate yet, there is an opening for a payraise for all.
LUV

 

[Flopgut]

Actually, most airlines would have had me on the street for the better part of a year- I don't think it's kool aid to know that SWA sacrificed a lot of money living with being fat on pilots for that time.... It's a different ideology - they view that as an investment over the career- now it's my job to remember

True. And your earlier reply post was quite well written BTW.

 

[Lear70]

Dude, Frac time is more challenging flying, and holds a higher standard than any 121 time ask all the retried guys that work there now. Long runways, ILS, gate agents, dispatch, csa. All these people to help you provide customer service. Not in the frac world, you do it all. You never did the frac thing. so you dont know. All the retired and 121 guys had there azz handed to them when they came over to the frac side. They said it them selfs.

Ummm,,, I was a LR31 Captain for Flexjet in the 1998-1999 time period before moving onto Express One into the 727. Been there, done that (as well as night freight Part 135 for Kalitta, and THAT'S the most challenging flying I've ever done, bar none).

That said, my friend, I didn't attack the Fractional or the Charter pilots, I simply stated that AirTran's minimums are 1,000 Part 121 PIC Turbine time or military equivalent. I've tried numerous times to get friends of mine on without it... to no avail. A very select FEW who had SERIOUS connections were able to do it, but they're the RARE exception, not the rule.

Again, I wasn't trying to go into a debate about the requirements to get hired, as I think it's a moot point, was just answering another member in a discussion of whether it's relevant to the SWA/AAI SLI.

 

[Lear70]

I'm not sure that 1000 hours PIC turbine is required by AT. That was not my understanding. If I'm wrong, I apologize for misstating that fact.

I also apologize if my posts wound up sounding like I was trying to demean AT pilots...that was not at all my intent. I should have realized that writing what I wrote would likely offend, but my only intent was to put the positions of being a pilot at SWA and AT in some kind of relative perspective.

I've made my points, I'm checking out of this discussion now.

I know tensions are high, and you will find that the majority of AAI pilots just want something fair and not get hosed when it comes to their quality of life, schedule and vacation bidding, etc.

Thanks for the apology, I'm sure you didn't mean it as aggressively as it sounded, the internet sucks like that, and I've had to apologize for that myself once or twice, just the nature of an "online" heated discussion... it's all good.

I have a lot of friends on the SWA side of the house, most of them F/O's, and I don't want to hose them over, either. In the end, I sincerely *HOPE* it doesn't go to arbitration, as I'd like to come to a middle ground TOGETHER, in a spirit of unity, rather than have people mad for years on end that something was "FORCED" on them by an outside 3rd party neutral.

Fly safe,

 

[GuppyWN]

In the end, I sincerely *HOPE* it doesn't go to arbitration, as I'd like to come to a middle ground TOGETHER, in a spirit of unity, rather than have people mad for years on end that something was "FORCED" on them by an outside 3rd party neutral.

Fly safe,

Or "FORCED" on YOU by an outside 3rd party neutral. Right?

Gup

 

[vixin]

I simply stated that AirTran's minimums are 1,000 Part 121 PIC Turbine time or military equivalent. I've tried numerous times to get friends of mine on without it... to no avail.

Lear 70 are you sure you work at Airtran? Its 500 121 pic. Geez!! Maybe they had the 500 but you didnt help because you thought it was 1000. Just busting your balls. Never understood that requirement though. Not only is 121 the easiest flying there is, but wth does military equivalent mean?

AirTran Airways is currently accepting resumes and conducting interviews for First Officer Positions.



Minimum Qualifications:

• Fixed wing flight time - 2500 hours
• Multi-engine, fixed wing flight time - 1000 hours
• 121 PIC or military equivalent - 500 hours
• An ATP certificate, or successful completion of the ATP written exam
• Current First Class Medical certificate
• Valid passport
• Legally eligible for employment in the United States
• Free of felony convictions within the most recent 10 years

 

[General Lee]

Wow, this is amazing.

Fubi's idea is probably what's going to happen. One thing to say. Seniority, Longevity and Pay are three separate issues in a merger. FL pilots should be able to expect no seat bump, no flushes, and the same rate they're getting now. They should expect to join the new list with their longevity intact in respect to benefits. Once the SLI is complete they will most likely join the SWA pay scale at an equivalent rate, i.e. move laterally, then upwards from there. Example: 12 year FL pilot makes $153 per hour (APC rates). He should be able to move over to the WN scale at that rate, regardless of longevity. However, APC has no hourly rate that low for WN, and the highest FO hourly is lower, so they'd join at the lowest CA rate of $181 (hourly equiv.). This would similarly be handled with FO pay. Point being for the purposes of pay, longevity and seniority should expect to be treated separately.

One thing I've noticed in these posts is the lack of hubris. Why should any pilot begrudge another for making more money? They should be happy that there is one less low-paying pilot contract out there they have to deal with come negotiating time. Every time an airline thinks their poo doesn't stink they get thrown off "the hill" into it? It appears from the posts that SWA is following the previously designated historical "Sky Nazis" down this path.

I've sat on WN's and FL's jumpseats as well as most of the other airlines out there that fly types I've flown. Your poo does stink. So does mine. None of you are all that special or unique. Most of the airline out there hire on the basis of personality not skill. WN has never required a sim check. The sim I got from FL in 1998 was a joke. MMPI's or their equivalents rule HR departments.

Everyone step back. Take a deep breath. Take another tact. Be happy this is happening. There are thousands of furloughed/bankrupt carrier pilots on the street or are flying overseas. Neither of you have to expect that. Say to yourselves, "OK, this is good. We can make this happen and all grow and prosper. I don't want to backslide in my career, but I want to see this resolved peacefully, quickly, and positively for all (or almost all), knowing that only the 'Number One Guy' will be the only true happy guy the list. And he will only be happy if he was already happy."

Good luck.

Hey Halin, how the heck are you BUDDY? I hope you are doing swell. Anyways, you missed something in your analysis. When you stated the Airtran guys would blend in with the new pay rate AFTER the SLI, I believe you are wrong there. FIRST, you need to get a joint contract with the same rates. This was learned from the USAir debacle. Those guys didn't like the SLI, and they still aren't paid the same, with the East guys being a bunch of wheenies and are also paid less. That sure does show those WEST guys, right? Anyway, it would be MORE PRUDENT for you to get a joint contract first, and then with the pay increases come less hard feelings about the SLI that will be handed to the SWA and AT pilots by arbitrators. It's gonna happen, but before that SLI everyone will and should get raises, especially the AT FOs. The DL pilots did not get a very large raise at all, but the FNWA pilots did, and better work rules for everyone. Add in additional upgrades after the merge, and some did a lot better % wise. That is the way it goes in mergers.

Regardless, I think ALL OF YOU DUDES ARE FANTASTICALLY NICE. REALLY, I ALMOST PEED MY PANTS JUST THINKING HOW HAPPY I WAS TO HAVE FRIENDS LIKE YOU GUYS. IT MAKES ME WANT TO RUN OUT ONTO THE DANCE FLOOR AND BREAKDANCE. BTW, if you have a chance tomorrow, please try to do something nice for someone else, like buying the city bus driver a stick of deodorant and telling him it will improve his dating life. See ya!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I know tensions are high, and you will find that the majority of AAI pilots just want something fair and not get hosed when it comes to their quality of life, schedule and vacation bidding, etc.

Thanks for the apology, I'm sure you didn't mean it as aggressively as it sounded, the internet sucks like that, and I've had to apologize for that myself once or twice, just the nature of an "online" heated discussion... it's all good.

I have a lot of friends on the SWA side of the house, most of them F/O's, and I don't want to hose them over, either. In the end, I sincerely *HOPE* it doesn't go to arbitration, as I'd like to come to a middle ground TOGETHER, in a spirit of unity, rather than have people mad for years on end that something was "FORCED" on them by an outside 3rd party neutral.

Fly safe,

Mr Moderator, First of all, I think you are doing a FANTASTIC JOB. You sure whipped me good, which was a good thing I guess. Anyway, I know you said you don't want to go to an arbitrator, but believe me, you DO. That will allow hurt feelings to be pointed to someone outside, not on the inside. If someone else does the SLI, they will always be the one(s) who did that, not your MEC rep, not your LEC rep, etc. Also, arbitrators are NEUTRAL. They have nothing to gain by giving one side something, and the other something else. They look over the whole deal, and decide who goes where, and then give you REASONS. (all typed nice and neat) Usually, everyone can understand that document, and that is that. Trust me, you CANNOT TRUST your reps and the SWA reps doing it all in harmony. It just won't work, because people often have alterior motives, like a certain rep wants to be a chair of a certain comittee, and since ALPA will be going away, those union types want something in SWAPA. That stuff goes on all of the time. Politics.

Regardless, YOU FANTASTIC BUNCH OF PILOTS DO HAVE SOMETHING IN COMMON----YOU ALL HAVE ME AS A BEST FRIEND. And if you have time tomorrow, please, please do something special for someone in need, like telling a school crossing guard that you love it when that old geezer stops everyone for 5 minutes and talks continually with hot Moms about the weather, when you need to get to work. See ya!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

I agree with general- we shouldn't be disappointed if it goes to arbitration for the reasons above- this thing isn't a week old and we've already got lots of opinions- let the arbitrator solve it as quickly as possible - that will be what brings us the most unity the quickest- sorry Lear- just sounds line a pipe dream to have the unity that would take to agree on an sli right from the start-

 

[Lear70]

Or "FORCED" on YOU by an outside 3rd party neutral. Right?

Gup

Heh heh... possibly, Gup, possibly.

Truth be told, with the recent history of arbitrator decisions leaning heavily towards "relative seniority", a lot of our pilots are saying "just let the arbitrator have it and save us the angst" on our private message board.

Wave, I would just prefer that our pilot groups keep control of the process, but yeah, I'm not holding my breath.

And General, you may be right, we were discussing that at the SPSC event yesterday here in ATL. There will most certainly be pilots who don't fare as well as others in the SLI and it might be helpful for them to have only an arbitrator to direct their anger at, rather than a union to be angry with and, potentially, to sue since everyone is so lawsuit-happy these days.

It's going to be a while before it ramps up, anyway, no sense getting spooled up quite yet.

 

[Flopgut]

I think with Bond/McCaskill in force the arbitrator's work will be pretty easy. It's conceivable this could be done without one.

 

[HalinTexas]

Hey Halin, how the heck are you BUDDY? I hope you are doing swell. Anyways, you missed something in your analysis. When you stated the Airtran guys would blend in with the new pay rate AFTER the SLI, I believe you are wrong there. FIRST, you need to get a joint contract with the same rates. This was learned from the USAir debacle.

I'm not understanding why that is necessary. Even if it is, I'm not sure what the average FL pilot would want to keep from their contract. Is there anything that the average WN pilot would want from the FL contract? I would think all of this would be dumped into one negotiation. I would also suppose that FL-ALPA would ask for more than they would expect to get. I might be wrong, and I am sure there are a few, but I don't think SWAPA is as concerned with what FLALPA is paid post integration, if there's DOH for the purposes of pay vs. seniority issues. Of course, I'm sure SWAMgt is interested how much FLALPA is gonna get paid, but they have to have crunched the numbers for the worst case scenario, i.e. FLALPA comes in at DOH longevity.

On another note, do they have drug testing at your employer? Can I have some? They don't check down here in S. America.