SWA/Airtran pilot integration thoughts, what will the new list look like?

[Flopgut]

It wasn't until the very next union rag after the December 2007 rule change that we saw an article reminding the Captains that this change would be detrimental to the junior folk, and to please keep them in mind when discussing these things.

You're lucky to get that much acknowledgement. ALPA didn't make a peep about detriment to even the pilots who were furloughed because of it.

You really need to think about that. I wouldn't doubt that if you were in jeopardy of being furloughed that the company or SWAPA would have stepped in and done whatever was necessary to make certain that didn't happen. Within ALPA, it's almost as though the senior begrudge the recent recalls. As if payroll increase going to a junior pilot trying to feed a familiy is an afront to their five years of gravy....

 

[texman]

And about half the people reading your posts just tuned out.

When you're wrong about a basic tenet of your argument, people stop listening.

AirTran not only requires 1,000 turbine PIC, it requires 1,000 hours turbine PIC 121 or military time. In other words, Southwest will take a guy with Part 91, 135, or Fractional PIC time. AirTran won't, they hold a higher standard of 1,000 Part 121 Turbine PIC (or military equivalent).

p.s. a large number of our pilots already have the 737 type but, if you would feel better, maybe we could require all our pilots to get a 737 type if all YOUR pilots have to go out and get a 717/DC9 type. Fair enough? (tic )

Dude, Frac time is more challenging flying, and holds a higher standard than any 121 time ask all the retried guys that work there now. Long runways, ILS, gate agents, dispatch, csa. All these people to help you provide customer service. Not in the frac world, you do it all. You never did the frac thing. so you dont know. All the retired and 121 guys had there azz handed to them when they came over to the frac side. They said it them selfs.

 

[mdf]

Can we drop the "Qualifications" argument. We are all doing the same job. I do think the disparity in pay needs to be carefully considered. I would give an extra year seniority for anyone who spent more than a year in Carbondale, and actually graduated. Minus 5 years if you were on the flight team :laugh:

 

[Fubijaakr]

Fubi, not bad,,, not bad at all. Our senior CA's would scream but as long as the fence for CA was of a LONG duration (at least 5 years if not longer), they should be fine.

That's the beauty of no bump/no flush. AAI pilots would maintain their current positions in their current bases until they voluntarily bid out. Granted, subsequent openings would probably be filled by pre-merger SWA pilots, but the AAI guys would have some protection.

One slight adjustment I'd make to my prior proposal would be to merge the lists by ratio SUBTRACTING the number of pre-1993 SWA pilots from the ratio.

 

[Rough67]

Dude, Frac time is more challenging flying, and holds a higher standard than any 121 time ask all the retried guys that work there now. Long runways, ILS, gate agents, dispatch, csa. All these people to help you provide customer service. Not in the frac world, you do it all. You never did the frac thing. so you dont know. All the retired and 121 guys had there azz handed to them when they came over to the frac side. They said it them selfs.

woah woah there toughguy.. man... everyone settle.. I have done both... so I do know. Do you mean it's more challenging because you have to watch that Aspen slot, or check on that car rental, or do that non precision to a mountain airport in the weather... or mabye even load some bags yourself!! oh my goodness.. "get their (*sp) ass handed to them".. I mean common really. Oh wait i forgot you actually file your own flight plans and check the radar and stuff too? ! That sounds much more challenging ! Look.. we all know the truth.. Pilots are pilots. There are good and bad.. there are jobs harder and easier.. Which is more challenging? who cares.. just try not to make it so obvious that you think that 121 folks can't file a flight plan man.. criminy.

 

[waveflyer]

You're lucky to get that much acknowledgement. ALPA didn't make a peep about detriment to even the pilots who were furloughed because of it.

You really need to think about that. I wouldn't doubt that if you were in jeopardy of being furloughed that the company or SWAPA would have stepped in and done whatever was necessary to make certain that didn't happen. Within ALPA, it's almost as though the senior begrudge the recent recalls. As if payroll increase going to a junior pilot trying to feed a familiy is an afront to their five years of gravy....

Actually, most airlines would have had me on the street for the better part of a year- I don't think it's kool aid to know that SWA sacrificed a lot of money living with being fat on pilots for that time.... It's a different ideology - they view that as an investment over the career- now it's my job to remember

 

[texman]

woah woah there toughguy.. man... everyone settle.. I have done both... so I do know. Do you mean it's more challenging because you have to watch that Aspen slot, or check on that car rental, or do that non precision to a mountain airport in the weather... or mabye even load some bags yourself!! oh my goodness.. "get their (*sp) ass handed to them".. I mean common really. Oh wait i forgot you actually file your own flight plans and check the radar and stuff too? ! That sounds much more challenging ! Look.. we all know the truth.. Pilots are pilots. There are good and bad.. there are jobs harder and easier.. Which is more challenging? who cares.. just try not to make it so obvious that you think that 121 folks can't file a flight plan man.. criminy.

I know the difference, I am 121 now. Just defending that side of the flying.

 

[freightdogfred]

Says the guy wants is a free Captain ride on the regatta. You're too expensive Freddie. Are you actually going this year?

Hey ya wanna win, ya pay me...I'm a hired gun, I don't go cheap. I'll sail for WN if they got the cheez heh heh

 

[Full of LUV]

Still not seeing why SWAPA doesn't see the opportunity....

Wow, this is amazing.

Fubi's idea is probably what's going to happen. One thing to say. Seniority, Longevity and Pay are three separate issues in a merger. FL pilots should be able to expect no seat bump, no flushes, and the same rate they're getting now. They should expect to join the new list with their longevity intact in respect to benefits. Once the SLI is complete they will most likely join the SWA pay scale at an equivalent rate, i.e. move laterally, then upwards from there. Example: 12 year FL pilot makes $153 per hour (APC rates). He should be able to move over to the WN scale at that rate, regardless of longevity. However, APC has no hourly rate that low for WN, and the highest FO hourly is lower, so they'd join at the lowest CA rate of $181 (hourly equiv.). This would similarly be handled with FO pay. Point being for the purposes of pay, longevity and seniority should expect to be treated separately.

One thing I've noticed in these posts is the lack of hubris. Why should any pilot begrudge another for making more money? They should be happy that there is one less low-paying pilot contract out there they have to deal with come negotiating time. Every time an airline thinks their poo doesn't stink they get thrown off "the hill" into it? It appears from the posts that SWA is following the previously designated historical "Sky Nazis" down this path.

I've sat on WN's and FL's jumpseats as well as most of the other airlines out there that fly types I've flown. Your poo does stink. So does mine. None of you are all that special or unique. Most of the airline out there hire on the basis of personality not skill. WN has never required a sim check. The sim I got from FL in 1998 was a joke. MMPI's or their equivalents rule HR departments.

Everyone step back. Take a deep breath. Take another tact. Be happy this is happening. There are thousands of furloughed/bankrupt carrier pilots on the street or are flying overseas. Neither of you have to expect that. Say to yourselves, "OK, this is good. We can make this happen and all grow and prosper. I don't want to backslide in my career, but I want to see this resolved peacefully, quickly, and positively for all (or almost all), knowing that only the 'Number One Guy' will be the only true happy guy the list. And he will only be happy if he was already happy."

Good luck.

Really, SWAPA should be seeing what they can get out of the deal to make the merger go through quickly and efficiently. A piece of the new stock? More profit sharing? The only thing each pilot group seems to be focused on is how to get one over on each other. Together, mgt will have access to much more revenue to pay all, if negotiated appropriately. I thought SWA doesn't even have an 800 payrate yet, there is an opening for a payraise for all.
LUV

 

[Flopgut]

Actually, most airlines would have had me on the street for the better part of a year- I don't think it's kool aid to know that SWA sacrificed a lot of money living with being fat on pilots for that time.... It's a different ideology - they view that as an investment over the career- now it's my job to remember

True. And your earlier reply post was quite well written BTW.