SWA/Airtran pilot integration thoughts, what will the new list look like?

[Ace McCoy]

I'm not sure what the average FL pilot would want to keep from their contract. Is there anything that the average WN pilot would want from the FL contract?.

The B-fund and increase it to 15%

Also, the ability to refuse junior assignment "due to an undue personal hardship." Not that it would be needed at SWA but it's nice to have.

 

[HalinTexas]

I don't know for sure, but the increase in B-fund probably won't happen. SWA would want one or the other.

As for the second item. WN has a VJA program, so I don't think IJA will be an issue. Don't answer your phone, call in fatigued, or call in sick. There's a lack of definition to "undue personal hardship," and I wouldn't that issue to hold things up.

 

[Lear70]

Ditto that, our 10.5% B Fund is better than your 401(k) match, as #1 it doesn't require us to contribute anything and, #2, it's more money. No, not a huge difference, but some, and if we DO get a contract anytime soon, my little birdies tell me it went to 12% and that's already been agreed to.

The reason I'd like to keep ours? You get to basically double dip. You get a 10.5/12% bonus without ever having to contribute a dime AND you still get to contribute the legal tax-deferred maximum into your 401(k) to offset your taxes now and later. Win-Win. Just my .02 cents.

As far as getting our "longevity for pay purposes" reduced? Don't count on it. If that becomes an issue in SLI discussions, I'd simply push our MEC for immediate request for arbitration per Bond-McCaskill. The last few arbitration decisions have NEVER yielded a DECREASE in longevity for pay purposes, so why accept anything else voluntarily? I don't understand why you'd even mention it?

 

[PCL_128]

Is there anything that the average WN pilot would want from the FL contract?

B-Fund, no downline draft into a day off, 12 hour max duty day, ability to refuse reassignments that take you past the footprint of your original trip, etc. There is no doubt that the SWAPA contract is superb, but we have a few good things in ours that I'm sure SWAPA would like.

 

[HalinTexas]

Ditto that, our 10.5% B Fund is better than your 401(k) match, as #1 it doesn't require us to contribute anything and, #2, it's more money. No, not a huge difference, but some, and if we DO get a contract anytime soon, my little birdies tell me it went to 12% and that's already been agreed to.

The reason I'd like to keep ours? You get to basically double dip. You get a 10.5/12% bonus without ever having to contribute a dime AND you still get to contribute the legal tax-deferred maximum into your 401(k) to offset your taxes now and later. Win-Win. Just my .02 cents.

As far as getting our "longevity for pay purposes" reduced? Don't count on it. If that becomes an issue in SLI discussions, I'd simply push our MEC for immediate request for arbitration per Bond-McCaskill. The last few arbitration decisions have NEVER yielded a DECREASE in longevity for pay purposes, so why accept anything else voluntarily? I don't understand why you'd even mention it?

I'll accept your "B" fund is probably better, so long as it's YOUR money and the company can't ever touch it. I don't work for SWA, but I know they wanted a "B" fund in the last contract, but didn't get it.

I still stand by the "lateral equivalent" movement in longevity pay. If it goes to arbitration solely due to this item, then I think the arbitrator will not give FLALPA a windfall in "DOH longevity." IMHO.

 

[rajflyboy]

I'll accept your "B" fund is probably better, so long as it's YOUR money and the company can't ever touch it. I don't work for SWA, but I know they wanted a "B" fund in the last contract, but didn't get it.

I still stand by the "lateral equivalent" movement in longevity pay. If it goes to arbitration solely due to this item, then I think the arbitrator will not give FLALPA a windfall in "DOH longevity." IMHO.

Ding Ding Ding

AT pilots haven't been watching the news over the last 10 years considering what has happen to pension funds at various airlines and other companies.

 

[PCL_128]

B-Funds are your own money. They aren't a pension that can be taken away in bankruptcy. The money is held in your own account, no different than a 401k.

 

[Lear70]

Ding Ding Ding

AT pilots haven't been watching the news over the last 10 years considering what has happen to pension funds at various airlines and other companies.

You're confusing an A fund with a B fund.

An A-fund is a traditional defined-benefit Pension. Without pension reform (which we desperately need in this country), a COMPANY owns and controls the A-fund.

Case in point, when the market was at all-time highs and the A-fund portfolio had grown to several times what was needed to pay out pensions, corporate managers sold large portions of the portfolios to fund huge multi-million dollar bonuses to the managers.

When the market tanked, what was left of those portfolios wasn't enough to pay the pension obligations, the pensions were declared insolvent, and the PBGC had to take them over.

A B-fund is a defined CONTRIBUTION fund, which goes into YOUR retirement account. The company has ZERO control over it, YOU direct what investments to make, where to put your money, profit or loss, and if the company has a problem financially, they can't touch those funds, as they're part of a protected retirement account under similar rules to your 401(k) account.

I still stand by the "lateral equivalent" movement in longevity pay. If it goes to arbitration solely due to this item, then I think the arbitrator will not give FLALPA a windfall in "DOH longevity." IMHO.

Again, it doesn't work like that, but if you have your mind set on this idea, I'll bet you a C-note, how is that? I like easy money.

Again, the contract integration agreement will come long before and completely separately from the SLI. What that means is that, in all likelihood, longevity and pay will never reach the hands of an arbitrator, only the seniority list integration will. You can't hold pay as a carrot for agreeing to a lesser seniority integration, that's called "blackmail".

 

[vixin]

Not trying to be rude, but both sides need to see a benefit. When its all said and done I will be welcoming the trannies to the team. However it works out. SWA guys dont need to just take it in the shorts and be happy about it.

 

[Cruncher]

I agre with vixin.

It's gonna have to be equally beneficial to both parties; now it's up to our guys to get it done.

 

[jonjuan]

Not trying to be rude, but both sides need to see a benefit. When its all said and done I will be welcoming the trannies to the team. However it works out. SWA guys dont need to just take it in the shorts and be happy about it.

Apparently your boss, Gary, figured it was beneficial for his company to buy the other company. Not to be rude.

 

[Ronnie75]

Apparently your boss, Gary, figured it was beneficial for his company to buy the other company. Not to be rude.

Ouch.

 

[vixin]

Yeah that hurt. Beneficial to the company and the discussion we are having are two separate issues. But, your inability to realize that shows your ignorance. Another idiot from the peanut gallery.

 

[Lear70]

Not trying to be rude, but both sides need to see a benefit. When its all said and done I will be welcoming the trannies to the team. However it works out. SWA guys dont need to just take it in the shorts and be happy about it.

I agree 100%. I've been saying all along that it needs to be fair, I never have advocated stapling anyone or a windfall for anyone (re. your original reply).

I know from the Southwest pilot's perspective that it seems AirTran pilots are getting all the benefits, but the fact of the matter is that the money isn't something Southwest pilots are "giving up". Gary Kelly and the senior management at Southwest is giving that in exchange for a large, profitable company. The money simply isn't a part of a SLI negotiation.

I'm simply interjecting a little reality of how the process works. Longevity/Compensation, the bridge agreement, and Seniority are all different pieces of the puzzle. No one gets to use one as a "bargaining chip" for the other.

 

[waveflyer]

SWA is the buying carrier and that does have history of judges awarding more favorable SLIs- it's not our contract that's necessarily important but the fact that the company we work for bought you-
Like I said- My opinion: it'll be a relative integration favoring WN bc we are the one forking over the cash-
My point however is that my "opinion" is pretty damn irrelevant and getting attached to it could seriously damage the culture - which is one of the best things about this...
So I ultimately conclude- who cares? We're all better off joining up so we should let a 3rd party decide so all 7700 of us can be mad at them and call it good.

I'm still wanting that 7700 pilot shot at 7:37)!) no matter how the sli goes down

 

[Lear70]

SWA is the buying carrier and that does have history of judges awarding more favorable SLIs- it's not our contract that's necessarily important but the fact that the company we work for bought you-
Like I said- My opinion: it'll be a relative integration favoring WN bc we are the one forking over the cash-

A very distinct possibility.

My point however is that my "opinion" is pretty damn irrelevant and getting attached to it could seriously damage the culture - which is one of the best things about this...

We're all looking forward to that as well.

So I ultimately conclude- who cares? We're all better off joining up so we should let a 3rd party decide so all 7700 of us can be mad at them and call it good.

Yeah, I'm sure it will get MUCH more heated in about 6 months, so I'm just enjoying the good vibes now and thinking that yes, it's likely it'll go to arbitration, so why sweat it?

I'm still wanting that 7700 pilot shot at 7:37)!) no matter how the sli goes down

Oh hell yeah, I think we should make it an event, every pilot in every overnight or every base or wherever they're at if they're off, on one night after it's all done, 7:37, "The shot slammed 'round the world"!

 

[Zdriver]

wouldn't there be two shots....

one at 7:17 and one at 7:37?

 

[waveflyer]

wouldn't there be two shots....

one at 7:17 and one at 7:37?

Let's make it happen brother!
;-)

 

[waveflyer]

Lear, in 6 months i'll still be thinking of long term and beating the anti-cactus drum. Will you? I hope in 6 months we're still just as committed to making this happen and fighting off greed- one thing you'll learn about the culture everyone touts- it's not all easy- and it's certainly not something that Herb just did for us- from day one they make sure you know that it's up to each of us to take care of each other and keep the culture alive- it's not that GK now won't do his part - he's proven it to me- but he can't even remotely do it alone.
Your job when you show up here is to take care of everybody else except you- and when you let that part go and just worry about giving- believe me you get it back in droves.

And when it's all about you for whatever reason- you'll probably get called out -

Let's just not let this merger become days of our lives for pilots and I'll be satisfied- but what we ought to be doing is showing leadership for the rest of the employee groups

 

[Lear70]

I'm right there with ya... I also know that people are people, and as the SLI negotiations really begin, people will start to get anxious and, therefore, combative again. It's human nature (and the way this board tends to work as you well know).

Hopefully with a little time to think about it and most of us getting along just fine, the overall atmosphere will be a positive one moving forward.

 

[bladeusa]

wouldn't there be two shots....

one at 7:17 and one at 7:37?

As a first step in Merging two things...and compromise.
(plus 2 shots 20 minutes apart & how I've heard that SWA pilots cant really hold their alcohol..something about clothing coming off or whatever)
Why not plan to do the famous shot at 7:37.17

 

[CMonBoard]

There goes bladeusa already alienating us with our new co-workers by reducing the "shots" to "shot." what are you, man? part of the BMT?

 

[PCL_128]

SWA is the buying carrier and that does have history of judges awarding more favorable SLIs

Can you cite examples? I'm not aware of any arbitration awards where that has been the case.

 

[waveflyer]

I don't know, I just made that up!
;-)
Ie: Look at the larger point pcl..

 

[PCL_128]

Ie: Look at the larger point pcl..

I'm with ya! Love the signature, by the way. I'm confident that we can avoid it and come out a strong airline at the end.

 

[General Lee]

SWA is the buying carrier and that does have history of judges awarding more favorable SLIs- it's not our contract that's necessarily important but the fact that the company we work for bought you-
Like I said- My opinion: it'll be a relative integration favoring WN bc we are the one forking over the cash-
My point however is that my "opinion" is pretty damn irrelevant and getting attached to it could seriously damage the culture - which is one of the best things about this...
So I ultimately conclude- who cares? We're all better off joining up so we should let a 3rd party decide so all 7700 of us can be mad at them and call it good.

I'm still wanting that 7700 pilot shot at 7:37)!) no matter how the sli goes down

Hey BEST FRIENDS, sorry I haven't been responding for the past couple days, but I have been flying. Anyways, RESPECTFULLY, I disagree with some of the points you have made. Let's look at the last two mergers--USAir/AWA and DAL/NWA. The arbitrators will be looking at them. USAir was pretty much saved by AWA (using credit to buy them, like a mortgage), and the top 500 guys on the Nicalau list were all USAir East, because the East operation had INTL ops (A330s and 767s going overseas), and then it was relative seniority after that. There was a DIFFERENCE in operations. (INTL vs mostly DOM) Do you guys have different planes, or different operations? I don't think so, infact Airtran has more INTL flying, period. And remember, Airtran has some money in the bank, which will be used by SWA for this merger. They aren't broke by any means.

Then there is the DAL/NWA merger. Both airlines had about the same history, (SWA is older than Airtran/Valujet) but they did the same thing--both INTL and DOM carriers. Delta was bigger than NWA in numbers, and had more larger planes (more 757s and up), but didn't have the biggest planes (744s). Still, the arbitrators found that NWA had older planes (742 cargo birds and some older DC9s (-30s) that were destined to be parked sooner than later), and that is how they molded the SLI. Both sides had lawyers that gave their cases, and the 3 arbitrators decided. SWA has older planes than Airtran (733s and 735s), but have more orders, even though Airtran has orders for 738s that will arrive sooner than any SWA could get.

What does all this mean? Most likely, both lists will be combined, with some of the SLI weighted towards longevity (SWA has pilots who have been flying at SWA longer than AT has been flying), but it probably won't be too slanted. It certainly won't be like USAir East getting the top 500. Maybe SWA will get the top 100, and then the AT guys will be slotted in, and that is decided by the arbitrators. Both sides have their own plans, though. The SWA guys want the AT guys to negotiate, making them think they are LUCKY to be a part of the NEW SWA. But, the NEW SWA wouldn't be as good if they didn't HAVE AT attached. So, if you are an AT pilot, just sit back and let the lawyers and arbitrators handle this. It will be a win win for everyone (stronger company), but only because of the combination, not just the SWA side. The COMBO makes the NEW AIRLINE GREAT. BUT DON'T FRET MY BROTHERS!! YOU ARE ALL DOPE! WHAS UP???? YOU ARE DOPE, DO YOU HEAR ME? AWE----SOME.

Regardless, I think ALL OF YOU ARE FANTASTIC, and if you have time tomorrow, PLEASE, do something nice for someone, like volunteering to participate in a line up at your local police station. There is a 93% chance you won't be singled out for that recent murder the other night. See ya!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[scoreboardII]

14312 posts and finally popped an artery.

 

[johnsonrod]

Hey BEST FRIENDS, sorry I haven't been responding for the past couple days, but I have been flying. Anyways, RESPECTFULLY, I disagree with some of the points you have made. Let's look at the last two mergers--USAir/AWA and DAL/NWA. The arbitrators will be looking at them. USAir was pretty much saved by AWA (using credit to buy them, like a mortgage), and the top 500 guys on the Nicalau list were all USAir East, because the East operation had INTL ops (A330s and 767s going overseas), and then it was relative seniority after that. There was a DIFFERENCE in operations. (INTL vs mostly DOM) Do you guys have different planes, or different operations? I don't think so, infact Airtran has more INTL flying, period. And remember, Airtran has some money in the bank, which will be used by SWA for this merger. They aren't broke by any means.

Then there is the DAL/NWA merger. Both airlines had about the same history, (SWA is older than Airtran/Valujet) but they did the same thing--both INTL and DOM carriers. Delta was bigger than NWA in numbers, and had more larger planes (more 757s and up), but didn't have the biggest planes (744s). Still, the arbitrators found that NWA had older planes (742 cargo birds and some older DC9s (-30s) that were destined to be parked sooner than later), and that is how they molded the SLI. Both sides had lawyers that gave their cases, and the 3 arbitrators decided. SWA has older planes than Airtran (733s and 735s), but have more orders, even though Airtran has orders for 738s that will arrive sooner than any SWA could get.

What does all this mean? Most likely, both lists will be combined, with some of the SLI weighted towards longevity (SWA has pilots who have been flying at SWA longer than AT has been flying), but it probably won't be too slanted. It certainly won't be like USAir East getting the top 500. Maybe SWA will get the top 100, and then the AT guys will be slotted in, and that is decided by the arbitrators. Both sides have their own plans, though. The SWA guys want the AT guys to negotiate, making them think they are LUCKY to be a part of the NEW SWA. But, the NEW SWA wouldn't be as good if they didn't HAVE AT attached. So, if you are an AT pilot, just sit back and let the lawyers and arbitrators handle this. It will be a win win for everyone (stronger company), but only because of the combination, not just the SWA side. The COMBO makes the NEW AIRLINE GREAT. BUT DON'T FRET MY BROTHERS!! YOU ARE ALL DOPE! WHAS UP???? YOU ARE DOPE, DO YOU HEAR ME? AWE----SOME.

Regardless, I think ALL OF YOU ARE FANTASTIC, and if you have time tomorrow, PLEASE, do something nice for someone, like volunteering to participate in a line up at your local police station. There is a 93% chance you won't be singled out for that recent murder the other night. See ya!


Bye Bye---General Lee

Good analysis Lee. And, I like the new attitude.

 

[johnsonrod]

14312 posts and finally popped an artery.

You must fly for Southwest. No wonder you are upset. Try to enjoy the merger if you can.

 

[Flying the Line]

PCL, the no dowline draft into a day off sounds nice, but if you are JA'd into a day off at SWA it pays double time.

General, If the US/AW was the other way around and it was AW that was almost shut down, the AW guys would not have been given a relative seniority integration as high as it was.