SWA/Airtran pilot integration thoughts, what will the new list look like?

[Fubijaakr]

As someone with no dog in the fight, here's the most fair and equitable way to integrate these two lists:

1. No bump, no flush. You hold your current base seat position until YOU bid out of it.

Since straight ratio would be a HUGE windfall for Air Tran guys, a better method of SLI would combine DoH and ratio. (Disclaimer: I know DoH isn't a component of either ALPA merger/frag or Bond/McCaskill, but hear me out.)

Air Tran's #1 Capt. has a 1993 hire date. So ALL SWA pilots hired prior to 1993 would be placed on the list. After that the first AAI pilot. Then, since there are 3.5 SWA pilots for every AAI pilot, 3 SWA pilots are listed. Then the next AAI pilot. Then 4 SWA pilots, an AAI pilot, 3 SWA pilots and on down until the list is sorted.

It would be a windfall for ANY AAI pilot to be slotted before a 1993 SWA hire. And given the no bump/no flush all current AAI Captains would maintain their left seat.

Granted, all the AAI pilots would get a salary windfall, but SLI deals with SENIORITY windfalls not monetary ones. To suggest that a bump in pay equates with sending AAI guys to the bottom of the list is a non-starter.

Of course you'd have to sort the list and adjust the ratio if there is a seniority bulge anywhere along the line.

 

[waveflyer]

Another point brought up on another forum, is relative qualifications to getting hired at each airline. Southwest's requirements are far more stingent, between being type rated and having minimum hours (turbine PIC). Can't deny that a job at SWA is a higher value and harder to achieve.

This is how Airways started - please stop-

 

[Sensei]

You all are leaving out one very important benefit for us--better looking flight attendants! (female, that is) I'd love to stay and chat but I have to have a new (and larger) cod piece added to my custom tailored, Canyon Blue and Orange banana hammock.

 

[carl p]

Originally Posted by Flycatcher99 [/URL]
[I]"Another point brought up on another forum, is relative qualifications to getting hired at each airline. Southwest's requirements are far more stingent, between being type rated and having minimum hours (turbine PIC). Can't deny that a job at SWA is a higher value and harder to achieve."[/I]


[QUOTE="Ty Webb, post: 2053967, member: 1212"]This is the stupidest attempt at justification I have seen so far.

I have 6 years in the left seat of a 737 and a degree in Aviation Management. You apparently had Beech 1900 PIC time and an over-inflated sense of self-worth . . . . . We both met SWA's requirements. What's your point?[/QUOTE]

Hey me too, I've got 7,800 hrs PIC between the 727, 737, and DC-9. I'm obviously more qualified than him...I like the way he thinks LOL! C'mon dude, your getting real silly now. Just take a deep breath and count to 10.

 

[Lear70]

Oh! Oh! Seniority integration by PIC Turbine time PRIOR to being hired by SWA or AirTran!

COUNT ME IN!!! LOL (have to agree with Ty, that was a pretty ignorant post right there, kemosabe).

Fubi, not bad,,, not bad at all. Our senior CA's would scream but as long as the fence for CA was of a LONG duration (at least 5 years if not longer), they should be fine.

Sensei... not right... not right at all. LOLOL

 

[Ty Webb]

Fubi, not bad,,, not bad at all. Our senior CA's would scream but as long as the fence for CA was of a LONG duration (at least 5 years if not longer), they should be fine.

Yepper

 

[vetrider]

What's stringent about a 737 type? Whoopee, my grandma has one. It seems as whatever airline is the cats meow of the moment always has that same hangup about the 'interview' and qualifications.

"Oh, what's the matter, couldn't pass the interview" blathered with appropriate pomposity.

 

[scoreboardII]

but SLI deals with SENIORITY windfalls not monetary ones. To suggest that a bump in pay equates with sending AAI guys to the bottom of the list is a non-starter. .

Your info is incorrect on numerous fronts:

RLA and A/M LPP states;

labor organizations must complete
before they can change the status quo, as well as the methods for resolving both “minor” and
“major” disputes over collective bargaining agreements.

That means, any issue, not just seniority, so pay is a major issue to be dealt with under RLA and A/M does reference seniority. This means it is acceptable and required to consider compensation under RLA. and then to fairly intigrate seniority, NOT exclude pay and only focus on seniority.

 

[Flycatcher99]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but that was "delta" arrogant there!! Jeez man get over yourself!

Wow, I really pushed some buttons with my comment. Look, it's not arrogant at all. I'm stating plain facts. SWA requires a 737 type rating and 1000 hours turbine PIC. AAI does not require either. Thus, the requirements to get a job at SWA are tougher, simple as that.

And for all the little smackdowns I'm getting on my total time, you guys don't really have the foggiest clue. I haven't been on this board since before I got hired at SWA seven years ago, and thus I haven't updated my total since then. Not that it matters. The point I was trying to make isn't how qualified each of us is at this time (SWA or AT pilots), but rather that SWA was arguably a tougher job to get when everyone was hiring. By that token (plus by common sense), it is a plain fact that many Air Tran fellows wanted/want to get on at SWA, not so much the converse.

You can scream and cry at me all you want, but those are the facts.

 

[Flycatcher99]

AYFKM! I personally know 3 of your capts. hired in the late 90s pre 9/11 (while all legacies were hiring) that WOULD NOT even been invited to an interview at any legacy(barely graduated high school). Swa did not have the luxury at that time to be overly picky. Post 9/11 as they were the only game in town they could be. But don't try to pull the cream of the crop crap here. For those of us that have been around a while, sw was somewhere between a good regional and a legacy. A fun place to work, but always behind in pay and benefits. You are at the top now by default (ch 11) not by anything swapa did.

Hm, where do I start?

First, who is comparing SWA with a legacy? I never did. I'm only comparing SWA with Air Tran. I stand by my comparison. If you think that Air Tran was ever a more (or even equally) desirable job than SWA, I have to ask, what color is the sky in your world?

Second, I never said SW pilots were the "cream of the crop". Some of them are, some aren't, just like at every other airline. I was only comparing ease of hire, and, again, if you think that it was just as easy to be hired at SWA as it was at Air Tran, you're smoking something besides cigs.

Third, your analysis of SWA's pay and position relative to legacies bears some truth. Many of the other airlines fell below our pay and benefits. But to say that our comparative position is of no credit to SWAPA is not accurate. Both SWAPA's negotiations and our good relations with management have resulted in such a strong company and such financial health, that SWA was able to sustain resilience in the midst of industry scalebacks and recession. So yes, our top pay is partly due to others pulling back, but it's also due to our strength in being able not only to be stable financially, but even get a pay raise in the middle of this recession.

 

[vetrider]

Who knew SWA had angry fos?

 

[Flycatcher99]

Who knew SWA had angry fos?

We're not angry. We're tired of being hung out to dry. Don't get me wrong, I count myself very blessed to be at SWA. But I also paid my dues, and paid them dearly, to get where I am. We are more than a bit jaded by the way our union has favored the most senior at our company, most noticably in the way they fought tooth and nail for the retirement age change, with nary a thought for how it would affect the FOs and junior Captains. It wasn't until the very next union rag after the December 2007 rule change that we saw an article reminding the Captains that this change would be detrimental to the junior folk, and to please keep them in mind when discussing these things. Gosh, thanks SWAPA!

This acquisition is just the latest way that FOs at SWA have been railroaded.

 

[waveflyer]

Fly- if I were you I'd find your closest united friend hired circa 1999-2000 and ask them about what expectations they had when they got hired there- or how about the bottom USAIR FO after their airline was chopped in half- who used to have been a captain and then was barely holding onto a job-
Or the twa pilot that.....
Or the American FO in the throws of the 'lost decade'

You say you're grateful, and even pay service to the business side of Swa - but it doesn't sound like it. Sounds like it's all about you and the expectations you had the day you were hired.

Bottom line- AT pilots had little to do with Swapa politics- and what did you expect ? Southwest would continue to double in size every few years through the year infinity, and during the largest recession in 70 years.

This IS about business- and this merger is good for all involved if you truly have a business mindset. You want to hold on to your all about me mindset and maybe Swa wasn't the best choice afterall.

"paid dearly..." look around ... Perspective is an amazing thing- so are out of touch expectations

 

[Lear70]

Wow, I really pushed some buttons with my comment. Look, it's not arrogant at all. I'm stating plain facts. SWA requires a 737 type rating and 1000 hours turbine PIC. AAI does not require either. Thus, the requirements to get a job at SWA are tougher, simple as that.

And about half the people reading your posts just tuned out.

When you're wrong about a basic tenet of your argument, people stop listening.

AirTran not only requires 1,000 turbine PIC, it requires 1,000 hours turbine PIC 121 or military time. In other words, Southwest will take a guy with Part 91, 135, or Fractional PIC time. AirTran won't, they hold a higher standard of 1,000 Part 121 Turbine PIC (or military equivalent).

p.s. a large number of our pilots already have the 737 type but, if you would feel better, maybe we could require all our pilots to get a 737 type if all YOUR pilots have to go out and get a 717/DC9 type. Fair enough? (tic )

 

[kwick]

We're not angry. We're tired of being hung out to dry. Don't get me wrong, I count myself very blessed to be at SWA. But I also paid my dues, and paid them dearly, to get where I am. We are more than a bit jaded by the way our union has favored the most senior at our company, most noticably in the way they fought tooth and nail for the retirement age change, with nary a thought for how it would affect the FOs and junior Captains. It wasn't until the very next union rag after the December 2007 rule change that we saw an article reminding the Captains that this change would be detrimental to the junior folk, and to please keep them in mind when discussing these things. Gosh, thanks SWAPA!

This acquisition is just the latest way that FOs at SWA have been railroaded.

Get over yourself, After the merger
You will likely be in the same relative
Position that you are today.

Your seat, domicile and pay will be the same.

Your just being asked to share
"the sandbox" with others.

You can choose to do so
With grace and maturity or
Cry and whine.

Your call.

 

[vixin]

And about half the people reading your posts just tuned out.

When you're wrong about a basic tenet of your argument, people stop listening.

AirTran not only requires 1,000 turbine PIC, it requires 1,000 hours turbine PIC 121 or military time. In other words, Southwest will take a guy with Part 91, 135, or Fractional PIC time. AirTran won't, they hold a higher standard of 1,000 Part 121 Turbine PIC (or military equivalent).

p.s. a large number of our pilots already have the 737 type but, if you would feel better, maybe we could require all our pilots to get a 737 type if all YOUR pilots have to go out and get a 717/DC9 type. Fair enough? (tic )

Isnt it 500 121 pic? A coworker of mine got on with 3000tt and almost 0 PIC. But he is a 2001 hire and mommy worked in the airtran office. So the requirements may have changed since then.

 

[Flycatcher99]

And about half the people reading your posts just tuned out.

When you're wrong about a basic tenet of your argument, people stop listening.

AirTran not only requires 1,000 turbine PIC, it requires 1,000 hours turbine PIC 121 or military time. In other words, Southwest will take a guy with Part 91, 135, or Fractional PIC time. AirTran won't, they hold a higher standard of 1,000 Part 121 Turbine PIC (or military equivalent).

p.s. a large number of our pilots already have the 737 type but, if you would feel better, maybe we could require all our pilots to get a 737 type if all YOUR pilots have to go out and get a 717/DC9 type. Fair enough? (tic )

I'm not sure that 1000 hours PIC turbine is required by AT. That was not my understanding. If I'm wrong, I apologize for misstating that fact.

I also apologize if my posts wound up sounding like I was trying to demean AT pilots...that was not at all my intent. I should have realized that writing what I wrote would likely offend, but my only intent was to put the positions of being a pilot at SWA and AT in some kind of relative perspective.

I've made my points, I'm checking out of this discussion now.

 

[Flycatcher99]

Get over yourself, After the merger
You will likely be in the same relative
Position that you are today.

Your seat, domicile and pay will be the same.

Your just being asked to share
"the sandbox" with others.

You can choose to do so
With grace and maturity or
Cry and whine.

Your call.

If you still don't understand how being in the same "relative position" is a demotion for SWA FO's after all the explanations above, then you never will.

And stating my position and what SWA FO's stand to gain or lose through this SLI is by no means "crying and whining", especially when my statements were in direct response to some inane posts by AT supporters who are trying to shoot for the moon on this deal. As I have many times over the course of my career, I will react to the end results of this with the grace and maturity, and will not in the least hold any of this against any individuals that come on SWA property.

As I just posted, my apologies for offending anyone. I've said my piece.

 

[MCDU]

I suggest a very respected Arbitraitor to decide this SLI proposal.

George Nicolau. He has done numerous fair integrations and he is very well respected with certain pilot groups. He thinks outside the box and this will allow for the SWA and Airtran pilot group to move forward.

M

 

[HalinTexas]

Wow, this is amazing.

Fubi's idea is probably what's going to happen. One thing to say. Seniority, Longevity and Pay are three separate issues in a merger. FL pilots should be able to expect no seat bump, no flushes, and the same rate they're getting now. They should expect to join the new list with their longevity intact in respect to benefits. Once the SLI is complete they will most likely join the SWA pay scale at an equivalent rate, i.e. move laterally, then upwards from there. Example: 12 year FL pilot makes $153 per hour (APC rates). He should be able to move over to the WN scale at that rate, regardless of longevity. However, APC has no hourly rate that low for WN, and the highest FO hourly is lower, so they'd join at the lowest CA rate of $181 (hourly equiv.). This would similarly be handled with FO pay. Point being for the purposes of pay, longevity and seniority should expect to be treated separately.

One thing I've noticed in these posts is the lack of hubris. Why should any pilot begrudge another for making more money? They should be happy that there is one less low-paying pilot contract out there they have to deal with come negotiating time. Every time an airline thinks their poo doesn't stink they get thrown off "the hill" into it? It appears from the posts that SWA is following the previously designated historical "Sky Nazis" down this path.

I've sat on WN's and FL's jumpseats as well as most of the other airlines out there that fly types I've flown. Your poo does stink. So does mine. None of you are all that special or unique. Most of the airline out there hire on the basis of personality not skill. WN has never required a sim check. The sim I got from FL in 1998 was a joke. MMPI's or their equivalents rule HR departments.

Everyone step back. Take a deep breath. Take another tact. Be happy this is happening. There are thousands of furloughed/bankrupt carrier pilots on the street or are flying overseas. Neither of you have to expect that. Say to yourselves, "OK, this is good. We can make this happen and all grow and prosper. I don't want to backslide in my career, but I want to see this resolved peacefully, quickly, and positively for all (or almost all), knowing that only the 'Number One Guy' will be the only true happy guy the list. And he will only be happy if he was already happy."

Good luck.