SWA/Airtran pilot integration thoughts, what will the new list look like?

[carl p]

Value.................. didn’t you just authorize a strike at
AAI. Relative integration is a pay increase for every AAI pilot day one. What do SWA pilots get day one?

The value AT brings is to the combined company as a whole (which your a part of), enough that your CEO decided to stake the future on it. Again, as much as we like like to believe it's all about us pilots it isn't. I've learned climbing my way to the top of a seniority list and watching it disappear overnight that we don't get much say in how it turns out. Otherwise, I wouldn't have gone through multiple furloughs and company Bk's. Not sure if you've been through the ringer or came from the MIL straight to SWA but you tend to get a different perspective after 15-20 years in this biz.

Oh and yes we did authorize a strike, because we are prepared to take it to the mat for a fair contract. So while there is big disparity between our payscales now it wouldn't be as significant in a few months (think Alaska pay). We are still stuck in a 2001 contract, not sure what your rates were back then.

Just arbitrate the dang thing and lets move on already.

 

[Lear70]

I would like to see SWA pilot group adopt the 10.5 % B Fund along with the
9.3% 401K Match. This would be the only thing that would benefit the SWA pilot group. And since upgrades now went to 20-25 years you will need as much help for retirement as you can get.

Thanks, cat, will you bring the girls to the welcoming committee party?

Upgrades won't be that long... A couple things to bear in mind.

1. We are woefully understaffed compared to how you guys staff your fleet. Just "right-sizing" the staffing model is going to add another 300-350 Captains right off the bat, as well as hiring at least another 300-400 F/O's.

2. Not sure how Southwest rest and duty rules work, but those new FAA rest and duty rules could require the same as above, if in smaller numbers.

3. This is the big one. With our expansion into the Caribbean and Southwest's announced intent to use that as a springboard for MORE expansion with MORE airplanes as quickly as they can get them, OUR delivery slots at insanely cheap rates even you guys couldn't negotiate right now give you guys added ability to upgrade sooner than previously thought as those new hulls are brought on board, possibly even -800's soon.

So, long story short, for at least the next 2-5 years, upgrade times could (and very likely WILL) DROP significantly as those new hulls are brought on property. I sense a plan afoot for a major push into Mexico, the Caribbean, and South America while CAL is tied up with the UAL deal and JB is trying to find a dance partner just as the economy starts to improve for near-international leisure travel. JMHO

You're going to find that AirTran brings more to the table than just some gate spaces in cool places and a developing international program. Obviously the pay rates and work rules you guys have are fantastic. I prefer our business class, assigned seating, and XM satellite radio product, but it seems I'm losing that facet as well, which is fine. But mainly, we are pilots who, at the end of the day, want to hold our head high when we tell people who we work for, knowing our CEO has a plan, that our management has our back, as long as we do our job and do it 100%. We'll come to work smiling and go home the same way, and I'll be the first one to buy a beer to the guy I got slotted under, no matter *WHAT* the integration because, and this is the important part:

We have an entire career to work together. Starting it out on the right foot is pretty damn important.

So to all, I urge, as you debate and banter and have fun,,, like your last overnight, you have to work with that person in the morning, so keep it respectful.

/soapbox

Have a good night, all.

 

[StopNTSing]

When I upgrade to CA it will be 275K/yr. At SW we get a minimum of 15 days off per month and I almost never have less than 17.

Minor point, but I wouldn't plan on seeing that $275K/yr with 17+ days off/mo thingy. The coin is definitely better in the left seat, but it isn't THAT good unless you really start picking up a lot more over your line (like an extra 30ish TFP/mo)......or join a cartel.

 

[Tripower455]

Minor point, but I wouldn't plan on seeing that $275K/yr with 17+ days off/mo thingy. The coin is definitely better in the left seat, but it isn't THAT good unless you really start picking up a lot more over your line (like an extra 30ish TFP/mo)......or join a cartel.

Yup.... Where do these guys get this stuff?

 

[scoreboardII]

I would LUV to have your view but here is the view from our side

Upgrades won't be that long...We are woefully understaffed hiring at least another 300-400 F/O's.

Uh, for the top 300 "combined" FO's maybe, everything after that is an exponential increase due to size of airline in the marketplace.

You can't grow at the same rate you did when you get 20% bigger, not mathematically possible. Slower growth with a larger pool means exponentially increased upgrade times once the dust settles.

2. Not sure how Southwest rest and duty rules work, but those new FAA rest and duty rules could require the same as above, if in smaller numbers.

Disagree, our guys already say the new rules will be a wash, no change required.

3. This is the big one. With our expansion into the Caribbean and Southwest's announced intent to use that as a springboard for MORE expansion with MORE airplanes as quickly as they can get them, OUR delivery slots at insanely cheap rates even you guys couldn't negotiate right now give you guys added ability to upgrade sooner than previously thought as those new hulls are brought on board, possibly even -800's soon.

Not going to believe it until the recession is over. Gary won't grow until he hits 15%ROI, his words. Now, I have grown accustomed to not believing him as most of what he says has turned into little white lies.

So, long story short, for at least the next 2-5 years, upgrade times could (and very likely WILL) DROP significantly as those new hulls are brought on property.

I wager there will be a growth of hundreds of captains like you believe, but then stagnation for another 5 years as SWA learns to deal with what we got. Those extra hulls are probably needed to replace old ones, at a one for one or less ratio, so no net gain. All speculation either way.

I sense a plan afoot for a major push into Mexico, the Caribbean, and South America while CAL is tied up with the UAL deal and JB is trying to find a dance partner just as the economy starts to improve for near-international leisure travel. JMHO

I sense an avoidance of Mexico, you read about whats going on down there? Civil war.

You're going to find that AirTran brings more to the table than just some gate spaces in cool places and a developing international program.

Agreed.

Obviously the pay rates and work rules you guys have are fantastic. I prefer our business class, assigned seating, and XM satellite radio product, but it seems I'm losing that facet as well, which is fine.

Agreed. You get better pay, work rules, we don't get business seating and XM, great deal for us.

We have an entire career to work together. Starting it out on the right foot is pretty damn important.

Agreed.
But in the end, what would you consider fair integration? An Airtran guy/gal is guaranteed security, lifestyle, favorable management. Probably a pay increase. What would you expect a SWA pilot to give up or get during this merger?

Lets be those two lowest FO's with 12 hours of air, whats the deal?

Take care, buy you a beer in LBB.

We'll buy the General a beer at Gatwick in five years when we start flying there.

 

[ATLplt]

No offense bro but what was your payrate going to be when you upgraded? And what is your guarantee?

Gup

Depends, our rates have not yet been negotiated. They were going to come in (supposedly) around Alaska for the first year and upwards from there. Our proposed rates are floating around here somewhere. I'd be a year 7-9 year FO at upgrade, (at the latest), likely sooner. This is factoring our scheduled deliveries and retirements. My pay as an 8 year Capt would be around the 160's+ range (depending on year) given our proposal. Southwest pay for FO's stops in the 140's. Not to mention, I'd be holding around 40-50 percent in the company and in the left seat. That ain't gonna happen at SWA. The guarantee currently sits at 70hrs. Looking at those numbers, SWA isn't THAT much of a windfall at all once our contract negotiations wrapped up.

Look, as far as the two airlines coming together, I like what this deal brings for both parties involved. The SLI debate is gonna go to an arbitrator though seeing as how so many SWA folks want to staple most/all AirTran guys at the bottom. I get it, you're looking after your own tail...understandably. I would be too. I just don't see where the whole thing is a complete windfall for ONLY the AirTran peeps. We're kinda in this together now. Your airline gets routes, cities, countries currently not served. We get the same (almost). We both enjoy job securities and new aircraft deliveries. Hopefully they'll go to new routes instead of just replacing old round dials.

 

[Mr Chub]

StopNTSing and Tripower455, I was talking about When I upgraded in around 8-9 years I would expect to make 275K/yr as a CA. I don't think we would have a pay freeze for 8 years. I believe the average CA pay currently is about 240-250K/yr.

 

[GuppyWN]

Upgrades won't be that long... A couple things to bear in mind.

1. We are woefully understaffed compared to how you guys staff your fleet. Just "right-sizing" the staffing model is going to add another 300-350 Captains right off the bat, as well as hiring at least another 300-400 F/O's.

2. Not sure how Southwest rest and duty rules work, but those new FAA rest and duty rules could require the same as above, if in smaller numbers.

3. This is the big one. With our expansion into the Caribbean and Southwest's announced intent to use that as a springboard for MORE expansion with MORE airplanes as quickly as they can get them, OUR delivery slots at insanely cheap rates even you guys couldn't negotiate right now give you guys added ability to upgrade sooner than previously thought as those new hulls are brought on board, possibly even -800's soon.


So to all, I urge, as you debate and banter and have fun,,, like your last overnight, you have to work with that person in the morning, so keep it respectful.

/soapbox

Have a good night, all.

1. We are running under 11 pilots per airplane. You guys are over 12. In other words - we could be over staffed.

2. The new FAA rest rules aren't going to help. They are going to hurt. How many pilots per day do you need when you can now fly 10 hour turns?

3. Gary said he aint growing until he gets $1BILLION in profit. You will learn to take him by his word after you watch him miss many an opportunity. (although after yesterday I think he's been "rightsizing" us lately)

Gup

 

[GuppyWN]

Depends, our rates have not yet been negotiated. They were going to come in (supposedly) around Alaska for the first year and upwards from there. Our proposed rates are floating around here somewhere. I'd be a year 7-9 year FO at upgrade, (at the latest), likely sooner. This is factoring our scheduled deliveries and retirements. My pay as an 8 year Capt would be around the 160's+ range (depending on year) given our proposal. Southwest pay for FO's stops in the 140's. Not to mention, I'd be holding around 40-50 percent in the company and in the left seat. That ain't gonna happen at SWA. The guarantee currently sits at 70hrs. Looking at those numbers, SWA isn't THAT much of a windfall at all once our contract negotiations wrapped up.

Does that bank go for "our rates have not yet been negotiated" when you apply for a loan? My new friend, I know what you mean but your contract negotiations are in a stalemate. That's why you've voted to strike. Bob wasn't going to give you the payrate you asked for.

Your guarantee - $153 (12 year cappy) X 70 = $10710/month X 12 = $128,520.

Our guarantee - $182.30 (per trip 12 year cappy) X 90 = $16407 X 12 = $196,884.

Is that a windfall? I guess we'll see.

Gup

 

[Lear70]

Good Morning,

Uh, for the top 300 "combined" FO's maybe, everything after that is an exponential increase due to size of airline in the marketplace.

No argument there, but what was the snapshot last week for Southwest pilots? Upgrades only for attrition, all new aircraft deliveries were slated only for replacing hulls that were being retired, no new growth. With us, you get not only "right sizing" upgrades and new hires, but also GROWTH again for the first time in a while.

I also forgot to mention that your airplanes are operated 2.1 block hours more per day per aircraft, * 150+ airplanes = 300 daily block hours MORE flying. That's going to require additional hiring and upgrades, shared yes, but still, I'm sure the top F/O's will appreciate there sooner than planned.

You can't grow at the same rate you did when you get 20% bigger, not mathematically possible. Slower growth with a larger pool means exponentially increased upgrade times once the dust settles.

Can't argue with that, I'm just saying there WAS no growth before yesterday and, now, there's going to be growth. We bring new markets and new growth possibilities to the table. I know it may not seem like a fair trade-off to the pilot group there, and I understand your concerns, just wanted to point out that it wasn't purely a "we get a windfall and you get nothing" kind of scenario although, admittedly, everything you mention later in this thread is certainly a bonus for us.

Disagree, our guys already say the new rules will be a wash, no change required.

Well, like I said, wasn't sure about that one, as OUR flying rules were GOING to require additional staffing, hence why we have 175+ new-hires starting through March. Going to find out this afternoon if that's still planned or if upcoming classes are on hold - have to make a trip through HR to drop some paperwork off.

Not going to believe it until the recession is over. Gary won't grow until he hits 15%ROI, his words. Now, I have grown accustomed to not believing him as most of what he says has turned into little white lies.

We'll see... I think they'll quickly expand south like I was saying; the market is recovering, albeit a jobless recovery which is MUCH slower. However, barring us getting into another war, people are starting to spend again, which is good. This holiday and leisure travel in the late winter / early Spring should be a good indicator.

I wager there will be a growth of hundreds of captains like you believe, but then stagnation for another 5 years as SWA learns to deal with what we got. Those extra hulls are probably needed to replace old ones, at a one for one or less ratio, so no net gain. All speculation either way.

No, that's what YOUR delivery schedule was for. We don't need to replace any hulls, all 51 of our deliveries were new-additions for net gain of hulls. That's going to make a lot of senior F/O's very happy.

I sense an avoidance of Mexico, you read about whats going on down there? Civil war.

Not in Cancun, Cozumel, Cabo San Lucas, etc. We already fly there, as do many others. Millions of Americans go there every month for leisure. Yes, the border towns are bad, but the tourist destinations are still hopping and ripe for the picking.

But in the end, what would you consider fair integration? An Airtran guy/gal is guaranteed security, lifestyle, favorable management. Probably a pay increase. What would you expect a SWA pilot to give up or get during this merger?

Well, I'm certainly not qualified to make that call for our entire pilot group, or for yours for that matter.

I will say that it's not a PURE windfall for us. I'm losing my upgrade. For a LONG time to come. Turning my 1-2 year upgrade outlook (now) into a 7-10 year (optimistically). We were right on the verge of asking for release (our pilots were SCREAMING to have our MEC make the official request on our private message board), having nothing but the pay package left to negotiate for and having been recessed by the NMB since we weren't getting anywhere.

Our upcoming pay rates were a known quantity within 1-2% - right on par with ALA / HAL / blended JB rates with an increased B-fund and per diem and better scheduling rules. As an F/O I would have been making somewhere around $97 an hour in my 6th year pay, about $30 less than an equivalent SWA F/O,,, HOWEVER,,, I'd have upgraded into a $162 an hour 7th year CA slot. Now I won't.

I want someone to explain to me how losing that income is somehow offset. Yes, that's right, merging with you guys is going to be a PAY CUT for me and a lot of other F/O's who were right on the cusp of upgrading, unless relative seniority is worked out and I keep my upgrade. I think I just got your attention... (I'm not necessarily advocating that stance, I'm simply putting the thought out there that for many of us, it's not the windfall that you think it is).

For our senior CA's, as long as they keep their seat and/or they are fenced? It's a good deal. For our Junior Captains? Unless they are also seat protected, pay protected, or fenced, not so good, if so, they do OK. For our senior F/O's like me? Unless you pay protect our upgrade expectations... Not so good. For our mid-level F/O's? Not so bad, hefty pay raise (to the tune of $30k-40k a year), and they weren't going to upgrade with our current projected deliveries anyway. For our very junior F/O's, it's a GREAT deal, representing a $40-50k increase in pay for the 10+ years it would have taken them to upgrade ASSUMING we ordered more planes.

Lets be those two lowest FO's with 12 hours of air, whats the deal?

Well, the pie is different from their end as I posted above.

My suggestion would be to take one pilot from each of the above seniority demographics (senior, mid-level, and junior reserve from each seat) and throw them in the room with the same 12-hour clock... It's a very complex problem, hence why trying to work it out on here is difficult. I'll leave it to PL and our merger committee and our MEC. I'm just here to fly and ask them to either keep my upgrade expectations or pay protect me for them.

Take care, buy you a beer in LBB.

We'll buy the General a beer at Gatwick in five years when we start flying there.

LOLOL... that's a classic, can't wait for him to wake up to that one. :beer: