SWA/Airtran pilot integration thoughts, what will the new list look like?

[vetrider]

Who knew SWA had angry fos?

 

[Flycatcher99]

Who knew SWA had angry fos?

We're not angry. We're tired of being hung out to dry. Don't get me wrong, I count myself very blessed to be at SWA. But I also paid my dues, and paid them dearly, to get where I am. We are more than a bit jaded by the way our union has favored the most senior at our company, most noticably in the way they fought tooth and nail for the retirement age change, with nary a thought for how it would affect the FOs and junior Captains. It wasn't until the very next union rag after the December 2007 rule change that we saw an article reminding the Captains that this change would be detrimental to the junior folk, and to please keep them in mind when discussing these things. Gosh, thanks SWAPA!

This acquisition is just the latest way that FOs at SWA have been railroaded.

 

[waveflyer]

Fly- if I were you I'd find your closest united friend hired circa 1999-2000 and ask them about what expectations they had when they got hired there- or how about the bottom USAIR FO after their airline was chopped in half- who used to have been a captain and then was barely holding onto a job-
Or the twa pilot that.....
Or the American FO in the throws of the 'lost decade'

You say you're grateful, and even pay service to the business side of Swa - but it doesn't sound like it. Sounds like it's all about you and the expectations you had the day you were hired.

Bottom line- AT pilots had little to do with Swapa politics- and what did you expect ? Southwest would continue to double in size every few years through the year infinity, and during the largest recession in 70 years.

This IS about business- and this merger is good for all involved if you truly have a business mindset. You want to hold on to your all about me mindset and maybe Swa wasn't the best choice afterall.

"paid dearly..." look around ... Perspective is an amazing thing- so are out of touch expectations

 

[Lear70]

Wow, I really pushed some buttons with my comment. Look, it's not arrogant at all. I'm stating plain facts. SWA requires a 737 type rating and 1000 hours turbine PIC. AAI does not require either. Thus, the requirements to get a job at SWA are tougher, simple as that.

And about half the people reading your posts just tuned out.

When you're wrong about a basic tenet of your argument, people stop listening.

AirTran not only requires 1,000 turbine PIC, it requires 1,000 hours turbine PIC 121 or military time. In other words, Southwest will take a guy with Part 91, 135, or Fractional PIC time. AirTran won't, they hold a higher standard of 1,000 Part 121 Turbine PIC (or military equivalent).

p.s. a large number of our pilots already have the 737 type but, if you would feel better, maybe we could require all our pilots to get a 737 type if all YOUR pilots have to go out and get a 717/DC9 type. Fair enough? (tic )

 

[kwick]

We're not angry. We're tired of being hung out to dry. Don't get me wrong, I count myself very blessed to be at SWA. But I also paid my dues, and paid them dearly, to get where I am. We are more than a bit jaded by the way our union has favored the most senior at our company, most noticably in the way they fought tooth and nail for the retirement age change, with nary a thought for how it would affect the FOs and junior Captains. It wasn't until the very next union rag after the December 2007 rule change that we saw an article reminding the Captains that this change would be detrimental to the junior folk, and to please keep them in mind when discussing these things. Gosh, thanks SWAPA!

This acquisition is just the latest way that FOs at SWA have been railroaded.

Get over yourself, After the merger
You will likely be in the same relative
Position that you are today.

Your seat, domicile and pay will be the same.

Your just being asked to share
"the sandbox" with others.

You can choose to do so
With grace and maturity or
Cry and whine.

Your call.

 

[vixin]

And about half the people reading your posts just tuned out.

When you're wrong about a basic tenet of your argument, people stop listening.

AirTran not only requires 1,000 turbine PIC, it requires 1,000 hours turbine PIC 121 or military time. In other words, Southwest will take a guy with Part 91, 135, or Fractional PIC time. AirTran won't, they hold a higher standard of 1,000 Part 121 Turbine PIC (or military equivalent).

p.s. a large number of our pilots already have the 737 type but, if you would feel better, maybe we could require all our pilots to get a 737 type if all YOUR pilots have to go out and get a 717/DC9 type. Fair enough? (tic )

Isnt it 500 121 pic? A coworker of mine got on with 3000tt and almost 0 PIC. But he is a 2001 hire and mommy worked in the airtran office. So the requirements may have changed since then.

 

[Flycatcher99]

And about half the people reading your posts just tuned out.

When you're wrong about a basic tenet of your argument, people stop listening.

AirTran not only requires 1,000 turbine PIC, it requires 1,000 hours turbine PIC 121 or military time. In other words, Southwest will take a guy with Part 91, 135, or Fractional PIC time. AirTran won't, they hold a higher standard of 1,000 Part 121 Turbine PIC (or military equivalent).

p.s. a large number of our pilots already have the 737 type but, if you would feel better, maybe we could require all our pilots to get a 737 type if all YOUR pilots have to go out and get a 717/DC9 type. Fair enough? (tic )

I'm not sure that 1000 hours PIC turbine is required by AT. That was not my understanding. If I'm wrong, I apologize for misstating that fact.

I also apologize if my posts wound up sounding like I was trying to demean AT pilots...that was not at all my intent. I should have realized that writing what I wrote would likely offend, but my only intent was to put the positions of being a pilot at SWA and AT in some kind of relative perspective.

I've made my points, I'm checking out of this discussion now.

 

[Flycatcher99]

Get over yourself, After the merger
You will likely be in the same relative
Position that you are today.

Your seat, domicile and pay will be the same.

Your just being asked to share
"the sandbox" with others.

You can choose to do so
With grace and maturity or
Cry and whine.

Your call.

If you still don't understand how being in the same "relative position" is a demotion for SWA FO's after all the explanations above, then you never will.

And stating my position and what SWA FO's stand to gain or lose through this SLI is by no means "crying and whining", especially when my statements were in direct response to some inane posts by AT supporters who are trying to shoot for the moon on this deal. As I have many times over the course of my career, I will react to the end results of this with the grace and maturity, and will not in the least hold any of this against any individuals that come on SWA property.

As I just posted, my apologies for offending anyone. I've said my piece.

 

[MCDU]

I suggest a very respected Arbitraitor to decide this SLI proposal.

George Nicolau. He has done numerous fair integrations and he is very well respected with certain pilot groups. He thinks outside the box and this will allow for the SWA and Airtran pilot group to move forward.

M

 

[HalinTexas]

Wow, this is amazing.

Fubi's idea is probably what's going to happen. One thing to say. Seniority, Longevity and Pay are three separate issues in a merger. FL pilots should be able to expect no seat bump, no flushes, and the same rate they're getting now. They should expect to join the new list with their longevity intact in respect to benefits. Once the SLI is complete they will most likely join the SWA pay scale at an equivalent rate, i.e. move laterally, then upwards from there. Example: 12 year FL pilot makes $153 per hour (APC rates). He should be able to move over to the WN scale at that rate, regardless of longevity. However, APC has no hourly rate that low for WN, and the highest FO hourly is lower, so they'd join at the lowest CA rate of $181 (hourly equiv.). This would similarly be handled with FO pay. Point being for the purposes of pay, longevity and seniority should expect to be treated separately.

One thing I've noticed in these posts is the lack of hubris. Why should any pilot begrudge another for making more money? They should be happy that there is one less low-paying pilot contract out there they have to deal with come negotiating time. Every time an airline thinks their poo doesn't stink they get thrown off "the hill" into it? It appears from the posts that SWA is following the previously designated historical "Sky Nazis" down this path.

I've sat on WN's and FL's jumpseats as well as most of the other airlines out there that fly types I've flown. Your poo does stink. So does mine. None of you are all that special or unique. Most of the airline out there hire on the basis of personality not skill. WN has never required a sim check. The sim I got from FL in 1998 was a joke. MMPI's or their equivalents rule HR departments.

Everyone step back. Take a deep breath. Take another tact. Be happy this is happening. There are thousands of furloughed/bankrupt carrier pilots on the street or are flying overseas. Neither of you have to expect that. Say to yourselves, "OK, this is good. We can make this happen and all grow and prosper. I don't want to backslide in my career, but I want to see this resolved peacefully, quickly, and positively for all (or almost all), knowing that only the 'Number One Guy' will be the only true happy guy the list. And he will only be happy if he was already happy."

Good luck.

 

[Flopgut]

It wasn't until the very next union rag after the December 2007 rule change that we saw an article reminding the Captains that this change would be detrimental to the junior folk, and to please keep them in mind when discussing these things.

You're lucky to get that much acknowledgement. ALPA didn't make a peep about detriment to even the pilots who were furloughed because of it.

You really need to think about that. I wouldn't doubt that if you were in jeopardy of being furloughed that the company or SWAPA would have stepped in and done whatever was necessary to make certain that didn't happen. Within ALPA, it's almost as though the senior begrudge the recent recalls. As if payroll increase going to a junior pilot trying to feed a familiy is an afront to their five years of gravy....

 

[texman]

And about half the people reading your posts just tuned out.

When you're wrong about a basic tenet of your argument, people stop listening.

AirTran not only requires 1,000 turbine PIC, it requires 1,000 hours turbine PIC 121 or military time. In other words, Southwest will take a guy with Part 91, 135, or Fractional PIC time. AirTran won't, they hold a higher standard of 1,000 Part 121 Turbine PIC (or military equivalent).

p.s. a large number of our pilots already have the 737 type but, if you would feel better, maybe we could require all our pilots to get a 737 type if all YOUR pilots have to go out and get a 717/DC9 type. Fair enough? (tic )

Dude, Frac time is more challenging flying, and holds a higher standard than any 121 time ask all the retried guys that work there now. Long runways, ILS, gate agents, dispatch, csa. All these people to help you provide customer service. Not in the frac world, you do it all. You never did the frac thing. so you dont know. All the retired and 121 guys had there azz handed to them when they came over to the frac side. They said it them selfs.

 

[mdf]

Can we drop the "Qualifications" argument. We are all doing the same job. I do think the disparity in pay needs to be carefully considered. I would give an extra year seniority for anyone who spent more than a year in Carbondale, and actually graduated. Minus 5 years if you were on the flight team :laugh:

 

[Fubijaakr]

Fubi, not bad,,, not bad at all. Our senior CA's would scream but as long as the fence for CA was of a LONG duration (at least 5 years if not longer), they should be fine.

That's the beauty of no bump/no flush. AAI pilots would maintain their current positions in their current bases until they voluntarily bid out. Granted, subsequent openings would probably be filled by pre-merger SWA pilots, but the AAI guys would have some protection.

One slight adjustment I'd make to my prior proposal would be to merge the lists by ratio SUBTRACTING the number of pre-1993 SWA pilots from the ratio.

 

[Rough67]

Dude, Frac time is more challenging flying, and holds a higher standard than any 121 time ask all the retried guys that work there now. Long runways, ILS, gate agents, dispatch, csa. All these people to help you provide customer service. Not in the frac world, you do it all. You never did the frac thing. so you dont know. All the retired and 121 guys had there azz handed to them when they came over to the frac side. They said it them selfs.

woah woah there toughguy.. man... everyone settle.. I have done both... so I do know. Do you mean it's more challenging because you have to watch that Aspen slot, or check on that car rental, or do that non precision to a mountain airport in the weather... or mabye even load some bags yourself!! oh my goodness.. "get their (*sp) ass handed to them".. I mean common really. Oh wait i forgot you actually file your own flight plans and check the radar and stuff too? ! That sounds much more challenging ! Look.. we all know the truth.. Pilots are pilots. There are good and bad.. there are jobs harder and easier.. Which is more challenging? who cares.. just try not to make it so obvious that you think that 121 folks can't file a flight plan man.. criminy.